Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Yosharian]

Prescient Attack is basically budget-Dimension Strike and you can get it much earlier

So is Arcane Accuracy. And Prescient doesn't do much if you use Shatter Defenses or are Invisible to the enemies. Still, Eldritch Archers need to make do with it.

Arcane Accuracy is good, but PA allows you to hit targets flat-footed regardless of their buffs, abilities, etc, and AA doesn't stack with many other effects.

It's a boss killer ability. Many bosses see through your invisibility, are immune to fear, etc.

If your target is flat-footed and you built your character/team correctly, you will hit them easily.

Of course DS is good too once you unlock it.

 

[Haplo]

Prescient Attack is basically budget-Dimension Strike and you can get it much earlier

So is Arcane Accuracy. And Prescient doesn't do much if you use Shatter Defenses or are Invisible to the enemies. Still, Eldritch Archers need to make do with it.

Arcane Accuracy is good, but PA allows you to hit targets flat-footed regardless of their buffs, abilities, etc, and AA doesn't stack with many other effects.

Many other effects? What other Insight bonuses are there? Nobility Domain (only +2) and in case of Aeon, the Cloak (+4). Something else?

 

[Delterius]

Woljif is not a terrific character, since he is a dex melee character and dex melee in general sucks. That said Eldritch Scoundrel is not a weak class, and keeping pure Eldritch Scoundrel isn't an awful option.

That is a huge mistake. Dex melees are very strong in Wrath.

Woljif is very flexible, can be built for many roles. Could even be a dedicated caster. ES is okay. But he also makes great Vivsectionists, Sword Saints, Arcane Riders...
I remember one power gamer on Discord joking that Woljif repeatedly puts his MC to shame vs the tougher bosses (largely due to magus' Dimension Strike Arcana).

He's one of the best and most flexible companions, really.

Woljif's greatest strength is that his dialogue pairs well with uncle Greybor, and he pulls both their weights.

I'll add that I wasn't really thinking things through but Woljif ended up being good enough that only my MC with clownfire ray and athletics saves ended up outshining him.

 

[Yosharian]

Prescient Attack is basically budget-Dimension Strike and you can get it much earlier

So is Arcane Accuracy. And Prescient doesn't do much if you use Shatter Defenses or are Invisible to the enemies. Still, Eldritch Archers need to make do with it.

Arcane Accuracy is good, but PA allows you to hit targets flat-footed regardless of their buffs, abilities, etc, and AA doesn't stack with many other effects.

Many other effects? What other Insight bonuses are there? Nobility Domain (only +2) and in case of Aeon, the Cloak (+4). Something else?

Well, Nobility is the big one. It's a minor thing, I suppose, but it isn't nothing.

PA has a potentially huge effect on AC, some bosses have an extremely large dodge/DEX bonus to AC. And they're usually the toughest ones to hit.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

They really should have made tactical time flow a toggle rather than a hold. Or just have a time button.

Switching between modes IS a toggle. As Holding is.

No, it isn't.
Tactical Time Flow is when you hold down V to slow down time in RTwP.
Releasing V pauses the game. Unpausing the game with space when make it run normally at full speed.

Turn Based Mode is a toggle, and it is not the same as TTF.

 

[Delterius]

we are now 6 pages away from the argument that baldurs gate was turn based if you used all the auto pause options

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Ok, I can see what you guys meant by Aeon's swift action Economy. Aeon gets a lot of Swift Spells. Which is great, but it does get a bit crowded when you already have swift action spells + domain zealot.
That temporal Aeon Gaze sounds really powerful. 5xmythic rank miss chance against your party? Sign me up.
Power of Law sounds weak though. Its only 2+(mythic rank/2) if your party rolls a 1+(mythic rank/2), which means at MR5 any 3 they roll becomes...a 4. Woo, still a miss.
I guess its good for denying crits, but if you aren't planning on sticking to the Aeon path it isn't worth it.

 

[Haplo]

Ok, I can see what you guys meant by Aeon's swift action Economy. Aeon gets a lot of Swift Spells. Which is great, but it does get a bit crowded when you already have swift action spells + domain zealot.
That temporal Aeon Gaze sounds really powerful. 5xmythic rank miss chance against your party? Sign me up.
Power of Law sounds weak though. Its only 2+(mythic rank/2) if your party rolls a 1+(mythic rank/2), which means at MR5 any 3 they roll becomes...a 4. Woo, still a miss.
I guess its good for denying crits, but if you aren't planning on sticking to the Aeon path it isn't worth it.

Why do you miss on a 4?

 

[Parabalus]

What are the buffs on Jinx?

The +5, +4 and +2 (weapon inherit I guess)?

If I were to guess: +2 is Bane, +5 is weapon Enchantment with the old bugged GMW and +4 is the old, bugged Shroud of Eternal Hunger shirt bonus.

Bugged GMW was what I was missing, thanks.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Ok, I can see what you guys meant by Aeon's swift action Economy. Aeon gets a lot of Swift Spells. Which is great, but it does get a bit crowded when you already have swift action spells + domain zealot.
That temporal Aeon Gaze sounds really powerful. 5xmythic rank miss chance against your party? Sign me up.
Power of Law sounds weak though. Its only 2+(mythic rank/2) if your party rolls a 1+(mythic rank/2), which means at MR5 any 3 they roll becomes...a 4. Woo, still a miss.
I guess its good for denying crits, but if you aren't planning on sticking to the Aeon path it isn't worth it.

Why do you miss on a 4?

If you need a 5 to hit rolling a 4 isn't going to do much.
It just doesn't seem that much of an advantage to me. That said, if you go full Aeon then the worse you can roll is a 7, which might be useful as its nearly 1/3 of a D20 roll.
But at that point the temporal manipulation one is going to give enemies a 50% chance to miss you.

 

[Average Manatee]

Is it worth making Woljif an Arcane Trickster? I vaguely remember that being recommended for Octavia in Kingmaker, but I don't know if its the same case for Woljif.
I kept him as a pure Eldritch Scoundrel because I don't know what to do with him and I figured that would be the safest option.

Sneak attacks in general suck in WOTR compared to Kingmaker, cause the damage ceiling is much higher and 10-60 damage amounts to little by endgame. When enemies have close to 1000 health. For casters you are better off getting your damage from stacking the +x to damage rolls that Bolster spells and dragon bloodlines give (and gear). For melee you are better off making builds that fish for crits and increase crit damage.

In general I agree, BUT...

Spoiler

Holy shit it does work. Do Wizard 3->Rogue 1->Vivi 1->Arcane Trickster 10->Loremaster 1 (secret: Druid spell Cave Fangs). You now can perform infinite AoE sneak attack bludgeoning or piercing damage with your mind as a free action, just win initiative. If you somehow lose initiative or aren't in range to kill everyone just turn on impromptu sneak attack. Take Enduring spells of course, cast sense vitals, take more sneak attack increasing levels.

Obviously it's Cave Fangs that is actually broken but abusing it normally is insanely tedious because its like 10 damage per usage on average and that's before damage reduction. Adding 20d6 to that 3d8 damage makes it actually impressive. Even more damage if you go legend.

The biggest problem with most sneak attackers IMO is that AB stacking is too important in WotR. Mathematically sneak attacks are a constant per-hit damage which means you really want to hit 100% of your attacks, meanwhile crit-focused characters only need to hit on a 15+ to get most of their damage (if they crit 30% of the time for x4 damage then they are getting 120% out of 190% of their theoretical damage, meaning that with 15 AB less than AC they only lose 1/3rd of their damage, even less once you count damage reduction). And automatic crit confirming through bless weapon only amplifies this. So sneak attackers actually require more AB to ramp up their damage yet they generally have lower AB. If you are Legend, have the rest of the party supporting you really well, or play on lower difficulties its fine, it just doesn't scale as well to hard/unfair.

Also Debilitating Injury is lame because you have to hit the enemy in the first place in order to lower their AC. Good luck getting through mirror images to score an initial hit on the enemy if you only hit on a 15 or something, it'll take a lot of time. Though now that I think about, getting debilitating injury on a boss through something like a quickened surprise spell (which hopefully can't miss/be resisted) is a good cope strategy.

 

[Haplo]

Ok, I can see what you guys meant by Aeon's swift action Economy. Aeon gets a lot of Swift Spells. Which is great, but it does get a bit crowded when you already have swift action spells + domain zealot.
That temporal Aeon Gaze sounds really powerful. 5xmythic rank miss chance against your party? Sign me up.
Power of Law sounds weak though. Its only 2+(mythic rank/2) if your party rolls a 1+(mythic rank/2), which means at MR5 any 3 they roll becomes...a 4. Woo, still a miss.
I guess its good for denying crits, but if you aren't planning on sticking to the Aeon path it isn't worth it.

Why do you miss on a 4?

If you need a 5 to hit rolling a 4 isn't going to do much.
It just doesn't seem that much of an advantage to me. That said, if you go full Aeon then the worse you can roll is a 7, which might be useful as its nearly 1/3 of a D20 roll.
But at that point the temporal manipulation one is going to give enemies a 50% chance to miss you.

Be more ambitious! Try to hit on a 2!

The Concealment Gaze is nice vs some enemies, but it doesn't stack with Concealment from Greater Invisibility/Displacement/Blink - or better yet, Uncertainty Principle, . Which are quite effective with Mind Blank.
So actually the more useful part is stripping Concealment from some enemies.
But as most of the game you only get 1 Gaze, late game 2, there are usually better picks (AB Gaze, AoO Gaze, DC Gaze, Power of Law Gaze).

 

[Yosharian]

Ok, I can see what you guys meant by Aeon's swift action Economy. Aeon gets a lot of Swift Spells. Which is great, but it does get a bit crowded when you already have swift action spells + domain zealot.
That temporal Aeon Gaze sounds really powerful. 5xmythic rank miss chance against your party? Sign me up.
Power of Law sounds weak though. Its only 2+(mythic rank/2) if your party rolls a 1+(mythic rank/2), which means at MR5 any 3 they roll becomes...a 4. Woo, still a miss.
I guess its good for denying crits, but if you aren't planning on sticking to the Aeon path it isn't worth it.

If you don't see why it's insanely powerful to never ever roll a 1 again, then I don't know what to tell you

Aeon is basically a cheat code once you unlock that Gaze

 

[Average Manatee]

If you don't see why it's insanely powerful to never ever roll a 1 again, then I don't know what to tell you

Why do you miss on a 4?

It'd be very rare to miss on a 3 but not on a 4. Similarly rolling 1 is rare enough not to matter statistically. If it did then everyone would take Always a Chance first, but its pretty much worthless in reality compared to like 6 other potential martial mythic abilities.

The Aeon gaze is definitely alright though once you get to like MR 8+. Hardly gamebreaking as far as mythic abilities go.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Tactical Time Flow is when you hold down V to slow down time in RTwP.
Releasing V pauses the game. Unpausing the game with space when make it run normally at full speed.

I did not pay attention to how it was called, but OK.

I am using "V" religiously, in every complex fight. I press "V", observe, press "V" again, observe. After the first 2-3 rounds it is usually obvious how the fight is going, so I just press space and use my auto pause settings.

There is no reason to make "V" a toggle. It is the button to go through the fight step-by-step for 1-2 crucial rounds. Then, you set auto-pause on every end of the round and on completing every action, turn both the party's and the enemies' indicators always on, observe every auto-pause, and issue commands or press space.

 

[Average Manatee]

Been playing around more with charges and I've found that switching between TB and RT continually works pretty well. If its your turn in TB then you can take a step or two in RT to reposition yourself slightly, then go back to TB once you see that a charge is possible. Also helps move your own characters out of the way when its not their turn and you need to charge through them, just have them rotate around the enemy a bit to not trigger an AoO.

Found a serious exploit.

Spoiler

I'm serious this is really abusable for any party and now that I know about it I find it hard not to abuse it to "correct" a lot of issues I have with the mechanics. You are warned.

Spoiler

You can take a 3 foot step in TB, swap to RT, swap to TB, then 3 foot step again, infinitely, forever. Makes it very easy to line up charges, but obviously also useful for infinite movement and escaping melee. IMO for charges its not unreasonable to use, after all D&D is supposed to be grid based so you always know when charges are possible and random pixels of clutter aren't an issue.

But if you do this then you can also do multiple swift actions per turn, which is obviously broken but I'm gonna use this for Judge because it literally fixes the class to how it should work. If you abuse it for all swift actions though... have fun casting 10 spells on turn 1 I guess.

 

[0sacred]

> finding it hard not to switch between combat modes forever

combatfags never change

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Does Mythic Charge apply to your mount? On one hand you think it would, but techically its the mount doing the charging, not the character with the Mythic Charge ability.

 

[Average Manatee]

It does not. It does apply to all attacks and damage procs you perform while charging on your mount, but not the mount's attacks (and presumably not their additional damage procs).

Strange interactions with Cleaving Finish. It does not apply Mythic Charge (which is strange because Mythic Charge applies to EVERYTHING else), but it does apply the up to x3 from longspear+spirited charge, and the other procs that happen on charge will also proc on Cleaving Finish and potentially get tripled.

I swear this game must have complete spaghetti code the way things get applied completely randomly. My guess is that Longspear and Spirited Charge are coded to never apply to the same target more than once per round, so they don't work with pounce but do with cleaving finish.

Also, in case anyone wondered, if you perform a charge and then use your swift action to cast a spell you don't get any charge bonuses on the spell. To be expected but I had to test.

There's definitely a Gendarme Improved Cleaving Finish build here that could take out whole rooms at level 20.

 

[Haplo]

I guess Angel Overwhelming Flames upgrade is also nice for this. Although the aoe isn't big.
But when it works...

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/3822888

Physical Rewards: May Update​

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Love, Owlcats

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

So turns out you're allowed to remove enemy buffs in advance, and it does not immediately initiate combat.
This is useful information.
I should clarify that by enemy I mean a neutral NPC that can become an Enemy.
Obviously if the target is already hostile combat will initiate, unless you're probably using some version of invisibility, which of course will not work if you're trying to remove True Seeing or See Invisible.

 

[Haplo]

I didn't quite expect a wolf shifter to be most effective against enemies immune to Prone...

Normally if an enemy is tripped, he gets the Prone status and cannot be tripped again untill he gets up.
Well, due to Owlcode you still roll a CMB check and, with Greater Trip, you get an AoO if you succeed. But the enemy does not get the Prone status.
Since all your attacks attempt trips (provided that the enemy is not Prone) - you loop AoO attacks untill the enemy is dead, you fail CMB or run out of AoOs.

On Tuesday I had the easiest and fastest Unfair Delvarra dragon fights yet...

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Oh, on the discord we discovered something silly.
Hellknight seems to advance domains, but not hellknight signifer.
So a divine caster has a choice of domains or spells when going hellknight. You do get pretty good BAB when going martial hellknight and as stated, you do seem to keep domains.
You do not need godclaw or pentamic faith for this to work, though presumably the bug only works with domains that are available to pentamic faith.

 

[Haplo]

Oh, on the discord we discovered something silly.
Hellknight seems to advance domains, but not hellknight signifer.
So a divine caster has a choice of domains or spells when going hellknight. You do get pretty good BAB when going martial hellknight and as stated, you do seem to keep domains.
You do not need godclaw or pentamic faith for this to work, though presumably the bug only works with domains that are available to pentamic faith.

...which means they are not very useful to progress beyond level 8. Pentamic Faith Domains don't stack Attack Bonus / Skillchecks / Saves / damage with Domain levels.

I guess it could have some niche application for a teleporter multiclass with Travel Domain 8 and Domain Zealot or some such.