Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[mediocrepoet]

Fixed that for you.

Maybe, but sometimes that feature actually does smack down some pretty retarded shit that no one else has the energy to even respond to. Given the choice, I prefer Desi's ... passion.

 

[Daidre]

I think the disconnect here stem from a few things.

• autism

Fixed that for you.

It is not like he is even consistent in his autism - he claims that even Armored Battlemage, who is often considered the worst archetype, is not hopeless and you can build about his meagre strengths, but don't you dare to build a Lich around perfectly adequate EK - it's bad, it's trap, expert does not approve.

 

[Parabalus]

There are no adjacent bosses

With enlarged reach weapons most bosses are adjacent to trash mobs, meaning they get hit with ICF procs from dead mobs. Very effective with fear triggered AoO.

 

[Desiderius]

You guys are hopeless in how you continue to get my points exactly backwards.

You’re autistically stuck playing 3.5, hyper-optimizing (badly), hurr-durr Wide Sweep only weapon, EK BAB.

Every argument I make is to refute this narrow (sub) optimization so you lazy fucktards will try one of the fifty other ways, weapons, classes, to own the game.

I even walk you through how to build the classes you think are the worst, with screenshots and everything *too make the point that you can do a lot more than keep playing the same two or three classes and weapons*, and even explain why you would choose to play that class in the first place, and you’re like (drool) Desiderius says there’s only one way to play the game.

No, there’s any number, and I’ll demonstrate whichever one you specify often blowing out what the memesters say is the only way.

 

[Humbaba]

"Bosses are the only threat" is a nuclear take tbh

 

[ERYFKRAD]

you can do a lot more than keep playing the same class

Yes. But why?

 

[Parabalus]

You guys are hopeless in how you continue to get my points exactly backwards.

You’re autistically stuck playing 3.5, hyper-optimizing (badly), hurr-durr Wide Sweep only weapon, EK BAB.

Every argument I make is to refute this narrow (sub) optimization so you lazy fucktards will try one of the fifty other ways, weapons, classes, to own the game.

I even walk you through how to build the classes you think are the worst, with screenshots and everything *too make the point that you can do a lot more than keep playing the same two or three classes and weapons*, and even explain why you would choose to play that class in the first place, and you’re like (drool) Desiderius says there’s only one way to play the game.

No, there’s any number, and I’ll demonstrate whichever one you specify often blowing out what the memesters say is the only way.

Nobody is really praising Wide Sweep though, it has extremely narrow usage.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

And BAB matters if you want to fit in Improved Crit line from trickster

You can also grab improved critical via loremaster now. The bug is fixed.

Can you grab Completely Normal Spell with Loremaster as well? Kind of salivating at the idea of an Azata caster with that metamagic feat.

 

[Desiderius]

That is correct. There are no adjacent bosses, and those are the main threat. You don't need Wide Sweep or much Cleavage (I did Bloodrager MC with the Cleaves but obv there no ninth level spells because didn't need them) if you've got Lann and Aru on Cleaving Shot and Nenio and Wolj locking down adds.

By the same logic you don't even need my MC in combat. Who the fuck cares that he is the only one who could synergy his class choices with Lich powers and build around PrC that would be subpar on any other Mythic - Lann, Aru, Nenio and Wolj can do all work by themselves just fine!

That isn't logic.

They could handle the adds and the boss would chew them up and spit them out. If you want to do melee-focused on MC then your primary role will be taking down bosses since you get an inherent AB advantage vs ranged and bosses have higher AC. You waste that advantage Cleaving since adds have lower AC anyway and other companions can already neutralize them. If you want to play a class that specializes in Cleaving (EK doesn't) then that may free up one of those slots for a different companion that can help with the boss or something else you're weak in.

In general, if you decide to play a class that duplicates one of the companions' roles (as I did in P:K Unfair by playing Grenadier MC instead of Jub) then you design to do that role better than that companion and free up the slot for a new one to join that helps you in a different way.

 

[Desiderius]

is often considered

Passive voice hiding the herd.

Think for yourself. Don't get trapped following them.

 

[Desiderius]

The point in illustrating the strengths of Armored Battlemage or Crusader (as I did in P:K) or Aldori Swordlord (my favorite) is just to highlight the fact that every single one of these archetypes has some designer who had a specific niche in mind for each (sub)class. If you can reverse engineer what that niche is and if that niche matches something that was previously challenging for you then yeah that class can be better for you than whatever the memesters are telling you you have to play.

 

[Desiderius]

you can do a lot more than keep playing the same class

Yes. But why?

(1) Learning and improving is fun.

(2) Variety is the spice of life.

(3) Combining (1) and (2) to own half-assed would-be authorities and hear the lamentations of their women is the best.

 

[Daidre]

Every argument I make is to refute this narrow (sub) optimization so you lazy fucktards will try one of the fifty other ways, weapons, classes, to own the game.

Not everyone document every character they play ITT. I am playing Battle Singer Azata right now. Not the most powerful character but screaming people to death is fun. Lich EK is my next planned character, and and I really want to go for melee hybrid this time because I have already completed the game with four pure Arcane Casters - 2 Azata Sorcerers, Demon Witch and Exploiter Wizard trickster.
So your advise "try something new, play another Wizard/Sorc 20" is beyond misplaced.

As other people already pointed out, you make a lot of weird assumptions about how other people play their game and build their characters.

Nobody is really praising Wide Sweep though, it has extremely narrow usage.

Imho, it is wonderful in chapter 2-3 but gets outclassed later. Still, it is very fun weapon to use in the fights where trash mob concentration allows to get the maximum out if it. I do not even bother with Weapon Focus + Improved for Scythes , just used it at the part of the game (Lost Chapel and Drezen Siege) where it shines and move on.

Think for yourself. Don't get trapped following them.

Sometime it is simple - I make a test char, look at them and think - nope, I do not want to play it for 100+h. Went through the most of the unappealing subclasses anyway in P:K's rogue-like mode, and will do the same thing with Wrath when DLC 3 is out.

 

[Parabalus]

If you want to play a class that specializes in Cleaving (EK doesn't) then that may free up one of those slots for a different companion that can help with the boss or something else you're weak in.

What does specializing mean?

Which martial is so feat starved that he skips on free attacks from Cleaving Finish?

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah, Daidre I can buy most of that.

All the subclasses where the niche doesn't match something I'd need I don't bother posting about unless somebody claims there's no niche at all then I'll explain the niche in case it's something someone is looking for.

When someone shows up talking about BAB and Weapon Specialization it's not an assumption that they're thinking more in terms of 3.5 as we all did starting out and would benefit from looking at the ways that PF is different.

 

[Desiderius]

If you want to play a class that specializes in Cleaving (EK doesn't) then that may free up one of those slots for a different companion that can help with the boss or something else you're weak in.

What does specializing mean?

Which martial is so feat starved that he skips on free attacks from Cleaving Finish?

Combat Style classes, Bloodrage that gets Cleave Bonus Feats, classes with full BAB + Weapon Training or other ways to boost AB to make up for Power Attack malus effortlessly, classes with a large amount of bonus feats.

If you want to go Vital Strike on EK then you would be too "feat-starved" to get the Cleave feats too and that could make sense if you've already got the adds covered. Even on my lvl 40 Legend Aldori Defender/Swordlord/Duelist I didn't take Cleave Feats. Four is a lot.

 

[Desiderius]

My one experience with melee + merge (Oracle Angel) I got to the point of "why I'm I dicking around attacking (with 3/4 BAB and no Weapon Training etc) when I can just nuke whole screen?" so that's something I'd have a concern about with merged EK Lich. Gimping yourself within your own build gets old pretty fast

 

[Parabalus]

My one experience with melee + merge (Oracle Angel) I got to the point of "why I'm I dicking around attacking (with 3/4 BAB and no Weapon Training etc) when I can just nuke whole screen?" so that's something I'd have a concern about with merged EK Lich. Gimping yourself within your own build gets old pretty fast

Does nuking outdamage Geniekind barrage melee?

 

[IllusiveBrian]

Does my character have to be threatening an enemy to take advantage of the retaliatory AoO from Mobility Improved Trick? I'm wondering if I can make a reduced person halfling that charges between every enemy to trigger as many AoOs as possible, but they presumably have almost no reach.

 

[Daidre]

Does nuking outdamage Geniekind barrage melee?

For my Oracle Angel - Barrage melee with Geniekind, Sun Marked spell and two handed axe with extended crit range was outperforming spellcasting 2-3 times in the terms of pure damage.
But I was still nuking a ton with Justice Bolts when direct melee was too dangerous for her on Unfair, like against that lightning Balor in threshold.

Spoiler

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah it’s just less fuss and I was left thinking jeez what could I do if I was just focused on casting?

In contrast QStaff Master with Angel got the nice buffs while being a better single-target neutralizer. Now that they fixed merging the contrast might be less stark.

 

[The_Mask]

Nice pic there, Daidre.

Also... no bully Desi-desi. His autism fueled about 1/3 of this subforum. <3

 

[Haplo]

Does nuking outdamage Geniekind barrage melee?

For my Oracle Angel - Barrage melee with Geniekind, Sun Marked spell and two handed axe with extended crit range was outperforming spellcasting 2-3 times in the terms of pure damage.
But I was still nuking a ton with Justice Bolts when direct melee was too dangerous for her on Unfair, like against that lightning Balor in threshold.

Spoiler

Looks deadly. How do you get so many temporary hit points?

Also so many attax? Don't see Sohei. There's Speed of Light and?

 

[Daidre]

Looks deadly. How do you get so many temporary hit points?

It the screen from the very old endgame save, when oracle's Spirit Boost Revelation was still bugged.

Also so many attax? Don't see Sohei. There's Speed of Light and?

There is a hammer in the Seelah's last quest with 3 charges of the hour-long buff:

Spoiler

But you need 2/3 amulet/ring slots empty for the best version with +2 Attacks.
Edit: damn it, going Lich means no Seelah and no hammer

 

[Desiderius]

That's kind of my point - the game throws so many ways to boost whatever at you that the difference between caster class and EK kind of pales in comparison. Now if you choose a shitty caster (sub)class like Octavia (Transmuter ability bonus being Enhancement kills it) then yeah Arcane Trickster or EK is going to be a no brainer. It's not a no-brainer on Nenio's set-up I can guarantee it. And half the fun of Sorcs is the Bloodlines. Arcanist especially with TTT Exploits opens up a lot of possibilities too and the archetypes feature unique abilities that scale and improve by class level as well.

Let's look at how EK AB stacks up with the available options from purely class abilities:

1. Full BAB + Class ability + Archetype ability (Mutation Warrior)

2. Full BAB + Class ability (Slayer)

3. Full BAB (some Pal archetypes? Monk?)

4. 3/4 + Class ability + Archetype (Saint? Judge?)

5. 3/4 + Class (Inq)

6. 3/4 (Hunter, EK)

7. 1/2 + class/archetype (?)

8. 1/2 (Wiz/Sorc)

The gap between 1. and 8. at say level 13 would be:

Mutation Warrior 13 BAB + 5 (Weap Training + Gloves) + 3 (Greater Mutation) = 21

vs Wiz 6 BAB

Gap = 15 which is significant but if you're trying to hit say Beverach at 60 (?) AC that only 1/4 of the way there.

EK at that point would be 10 AB so only making up a little over 1/4 of *that* gap.

Which is why I'd lean on taking something near the top of the list in lieu of merging if I wanted to smash. In any case you've got to plan on a lot more than class to get to that 60 AC. Alternatively there is (a little more than) enough there to smash even with 8. if you squeeze every last bit of equipment/group abilities/debuffs out of the game.





(Nenio SS10/AE1/EK8 on Core)