Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[MjKorz]

Did Archmage Armor Mythic ability change? I swear it used to work with crafteable potions, but it doesnt for me anymore on my Sword Saint, I just get +4 AC

Yes, it was specifically nerfed to work only with Mage Armor that is self-cast as a spell.

To protect people from themselves since it usually sucks.

Archmage Armor sucking? My tanks never get out of bed without it:

I pick it up right after Master Shapeshifter on any 2/3 caster tank.

 

[Haplo]

Did Archmage Armor Mythic ability change? I swear it used to work with crafteable potions, but it doesnt for me anymore on my Sword Saint, I just get +4 AC

Yes, it was specifically nerfed to work only with Mage Armor that is self-cast as a spell.

that kinda blows since I'm on Core and I can't respec lmao

Respec mod?

 

[Heroic Liberator]

 

[Desiderius]

Did Archmage Armor Mythic ability change? I swear it used to work with crafteable potions, but it doesnt for me anymore on my Sword Saint, I just get +4 AC

Yes, it was specifically nerfed to work only with Mage Armor that is self-cast as a spell.

To protect people from themselves since it usually sucks.

Archmage Armor sucking? My tanks never get out of bed without it:

I pick it up right after Master Shapeshifter on any 2/3 caster tank.

Or you could… *cast* with your casters and use that item slot on your tank to get much more resilient while getting a Mythic that actually does something. Especially now with Mythic Armor focus letting you bypass the DEX bonus limit on Heavy and use STR bonus instead you can use that if you feel the need to AC max.

You’ll have *way* higher AC all along going that way and in fact already did even before Mythic Armor focus. The idea that Archmage was not only good but mandatory radically (and absurdly) narrowed not only people’s class choices but even party comps and tactics.

BTW *all* scaling Mythics aren’t very good compared to the alternatives until you hit at least rank 4 at minimum which is where the more challenging part of the game takes place. Seelah Tower Pal (with optional Monk splash) hits 100 AC in Ivory Labyrinth and enough to tank by beginning of Ch2.

Pajama tank is more leet raid thinking.

 

[Nikanuur]

Did Archmage Armor Mythic ability change? I swear it used to work with crafteable potions, but it doesnt for me anymore on my Sword Saint, I just get +4 AC

Yes, it was specifically nerfed to work only with Mage Armor that is self-cast as a spell.

To protect people from themselves since it usually sucks.

Archmage Armor sucking? My tanks never get out of bed without it:

I pick it up right after Master Shapeshifter on any 2/3 caster tank.

Impressive. But how on Earth Golarion have you managed to impose "Fear" on Deskari?

 

[MjKorz]

Did Archmage Armor Mythic ability change? I swear it used to work with crafteable potions, but it doesnt for me anymore on my Sword Saint, I just get +4 AC

Yes, it was specifically nerfed to work only with Mage Armor that is self-cast as a spell.

To protect people from themselves since it usually sucks.

Archmage Armor sucking? My tanks never get out of bed without it:

I pick it up right after Master Shapeshifter on any 2/3 caster tank.

Or you could… *cast* with your casters and use that item slot on your tank to get much more resilient while getting a Mythic that actually does something. Especially now with Mythic Armor focus letting you bypass the DEX bonus limit on Heavy and use STR bonus instead you can use that if you feel the need to AC max.

You’ll have *way* higher AC all along going that way and in fact already did even before Mythic Armor focus. The idea that Archmage was not only good but mandatory radically (and absurdly) narrowed not only people’s class choices but even party comps and tactics.

BTW *all* scaling Mythics aren’t very good compared to the alternatives until you hit at least rank 4 at minimum which is where the more challenging part of the game takes place. Seelah Tower Pal (with optional Monk splash) hits 100 AC in Ivory Labyrinth and enough to tank by beginning of Ch2.

Pajama tank is more leet raid thinking.

Wrong on pretty much all counts.

1. You are looking at a court poet, who is not an offensive caster, but a buffer and a tank. Buffer with not just spells, but also insightful contemplation that provides massive CHA/INT boost to the entire party and especially the wearer of the ring of triumphant advance for a staggering up to +20 INT/CHA. Since this is not an offensive caster, there is no need to take any mythic abilities or feats that boost offensive casting, leaving plenty of free mythic abilities/feats for defense and allowing to turn a buffer into a tank capable of tanking unfair from start to finish.

2. You claim that I should use it on my "tank", but a good party has no need for a dedicated tank. You can make multi-purpose characters like tank/buffers or tanks/hexers/buffers capable of tanking unfair from start to finish and you are looking at one such character.

3. Like I said before, I take archmage armor after master shapeshifter which provides an immediate +2 AC boost. Since you are looking at a court poet who takes mythic inspiration at MR1, archmage armor is taken only on MR3 and thus provides a +3 AC boost which is the highest AC boost a DEX character can get from a mythic ability/feat at this MR.

4. Mythic Armor Focus Heavy Avoidance does not allow you to add your STR bonus to your AC, it allows you to add half your strength bonus. Compared to a DEX+CHA + Archmage Armor tank, your heavy armor tank will be lagging in AC value against multiple enemies. You can combine this with smites, but smites are single target only and nothing prevents a DEX+CHA+AA tank from using smites as well.

5. You claim that a heavy armor character will have more AC than one uses archmage armor. OK, post your heavy armor character tanking ALL the unfair plagued smilodons in chapter 2. Note that these are multiple enemies and you can't use smite to tank them all.

6. You claim that a heavy armor character will have higher AC "all along going that way". OK, post your heavy armor character tanking the unfair water elemental in the prologue.

7. Seelah hits her AC via smite. Any DEX+CHA+AA tank can use smite and reach even values higher than 100. In fact, you can double stack smite evil + chaos on a CHA+DEX+AA character via Aroden's Wrath which converts the Smite Evil Deflection AC bonus into Sacred and reach even higher values, but, again, this is smite which means single target only.

8. Obviously, you are oblivious to the fact that a character who does not wear armor can stack CHA+INT+DEX+AA AC. If you knew this, you wouldn't be making the claims you did.

Now, show me your heavy armor characters doing the things a DEX tank does.

Edit: had to reupload the images. Catbox is down.

 

[MjKorz]

Did Archmage Armor Mythic ability change? I swear it used to work with crafteable potions, but it doesnt for me anymore on my Sword Saint, I just get +4 AC

Yes, it was specifically nerfed to work only with Mage Armor that is self-cast as a spell.

To protect people from themselves since it usually sucks.

Archmage Armor sucking? My tanks never get out of bed without it:

I pick it up right after Master Shapeshifter on any 2/3 caster tank.

Impressive. But how on Earth Golarion have you managed to impose "Fear" on Deskari?

Deskari is not inherently immune to Fear and has no buffs that grant him such immunity (e.g. Greater Heroism). Just the same, first thing I did was dispel him completely via Improved Aeon's Bane to remove all the buffs.

Since he's not immune to Fear, not only can you shaken/fear him, you or Nenio can outright Weird him:

 

[Desiderius]

Anyway, this is why they nerfed it.

You can in fact choose a cool new class for your MC and let it develop over the course of the game, tank (and fight) with your Pal, Hex shit (and fight) with your Shaman, shoot shit (and find it) with your Zen Archer, slice stuff up (and buff) with your Eldritch Archer, and heal/intimidate/buff/debuff with your Oracle and be fine. Mix and match other companions to taste.

Weird tricks not necessary (and often self-nerfing) no matter what Fextradeath tells you.

 

[Yosharian]

Wasn't Insightful Contemplation nerfed?

 

[MjKorz]

Wasn't Insightful Contemplation nerfed?

Not directly. Mythic inspiration was nerfed which in turn resulted in a smaller bonus for insightful contemplation. Before the nerf, the CHA/INT buff from mythic inspiration was: 2 + 2/3MR after MR1. It made sense since an intelligence "bonus" of 1 doesn't actually grant you any bonus unless you have odd stat values so in order to grant a +1 ability modifier bonus you received +2 to CHA/INT, same way you'd receive a +1 bonus to damage which is equivalent to 2 points of STR. Of course, this resulted in a massive DC caster buff and ribbitors lost their shit. Owlclowns then made a special exception for insightful contemplation and cut the effect of mythic inspiration in half specifically for that one buff, because fuck consistency.

Of course, this didn't change anything: spellcasters are still receiving a massive +10 INT/CHA Morale bonus via Insightful Contemplation + Mythic Inspiration at MR10 which is then doubled by the Ring of Triumphant Advance to +20 CHA/INT.

The total nerf was from +28 INT/CHA to a """mere""" +20 INT/CHA.

 

[Yosharian]

Wasn't Insightful Contemplation nerfed?

Not directly. Mythic inspiration was nerfed which in turn resulted in a smaller bonus for insightful contemplation. Before the nerf, the CHA/INT buff from mythic inspiration was: 2 + 2/3MR after MR1. It made sense since an intelligence "bonus" of 1 doesn't actually grant you any bonus unless you have odd stat values so in order to grant a +1 ability modifier bonus you received +2 to CHA/INT, same way you'd receive a +1 bonus to damage which is equivalent to 2 points of STR. Of course, this resulted in a massive DC caster buff and ribbitors lost their shit. Owlclowns then made a special exception for insightful contemplation and cut the effect of mythic inspiration in half specifically for that one buff, because fuck consistency.

Of course, this didn't change anything: spellcasters are still receiving a massive +10 INT/CHA Morale bonus via Insightful Contemplation + Mythic Inspiration at MR10 which is then doubled by the Ring of Triumphant Advance to +20 CHA/INT.

The total nerf was from +28 INT/CHA to a """mere""" +20 INT/CHA.

Ah I see. Yeah it's still pretty strong then

 

[Desiderius]

By ch5 there are a zillion ways to get more AC than you need. And... you don't need to tank with your MC at all. It's not a solo game.

If you're playing the whole game underleveled to get pretty pictures at lvl 2 what exactly is the point? If you want to play Unfair the whole game just tank the Elemental with a Leopard or skip it. It can be tanked with the pots if you insist on killing it by a martial (or Cam) with the buffs pictured and some buffs/debuffs you're missing.

 

[Desiderius]

Now, show me your heavy armor characters doing the things a DEX tank does.

Brother I've been spamming these fora with screenshots for years. If you're beating DCs by forty what do you need a tank for in the first place? Solvable game is solvable. I like to give the devs some help keeping it nontrivial where I can. Hindering class level progression to stack unnecessary AC is a way to do that I guess, but not a particularly interesting one. If you simply use the item slots and companions you have in the roles they are designed to play you don't have to do that. Most players would prefer to play the game that way but were misled into believing they had to all use the same frankenstein's monster. You simply don't.

*If* you're playing Sword Saint or Eldritch Scoundrel then Archmage Armor is a solid mid/late pickup once you've got the necessities for the class to function as designed. But the existence of the Ability shouldn't dictate party comp. It isn't nearly that relevant.

 

[MjKorz]

Now, show me your heavy armor characters doing the things a DEX tank does.

Brother I've been spamming these fora with screenshots for years. If you're beating DCs by forty what do you need a tank for in the first place? Solvable game is solvable. I like to give the devs some help keeping it nontrivial where I can. Hindering class level progression to stack unnecessary AC is a way to do that I guess, but not a particularly interesting one. If you simply use the items slots and companions you have in the roles they are designed to play you don't have to do that. Most players would prefer to play the game that way but were misled into believing they had to all use the same frankenstein's monster. You simply don't.

You need to be more precise with your argumentation. If your argument is: "Heavy armor tanks are superior to DEX-based + Archmage Armor ones", then you are wrong. However, if your argument is: "You don't need a 20-dip creatura wearing pajamas to tank unfair", then you are not wrong.

 

[Desiderius]

Now, show me your heavy armor characters doing the things a DEX tank does.

Brother I've been spamming these fora with screenshots for years. If you're beating DCs by forty what do you need a tank for in the first place? Solvable game is solvable. I like to give the devs some help keeping it nontrivial where I can. Hindering class level progression to stack unnecessary AC is a way to do that I guess, but not a particularly interesting one. If you simply use the items slots and companions you have in the roles they are designed to play you don't have to do that. Most players would prefer to play the game that way but were misled into believing they had to all use the same frankenstein's monster. You simply don't.

You need to be more precise with your argumentation. If your argument is: "Heavy armor tanks are superior to DEX-based + Archmage Armor ones", then you are wrong. However, if your argument is: "You don't need a 20-dip creatura wearing pajamas to tank unfair", then you are not wrong.

Of course they are.

Your picture isn't a DEX-tank, it's nerfing the progression on a class that is already tortuously slow to come into its own to tack on a splash you wouldn't even need if you weren't trying to tank with a class that isn't set up to do so until later in the game (if at all).

Heavy tanks don't have to worry about flat-footed or being ambushed without buffs up and get to use those two item slots you're not using for significant bonuses that grow throughout the game aside from AC. With Heavy Armor Focus Mythic now a thing it isn't even close.

You have to blow Feats on Weapon Finesse and Mythic Finesse *in addition* to Archmage just to get back to where STR-Heavy already is. And no that doesn't require Smite. On Unfair Pal uses its Smites for Marks usually but can top off as needed lvls 6-11ish. Seelah comes with Dodge (to get to Crane if you want off a lvl 14 Monk Splash which also unlocks Monk Shirts) and Shield Focus to unlock Mythic Tower for stacking DR that precedes Unfair doubling. I splashed TSS and took a few more lvls late but that's probably unnecessary if you just pick up Tower Prof as a Feat. +3 Tower is for sale as soon as Grey Garrison is finished.



Once Legendary shows up (Nenio can make scrolls) that's another big boost (and to STR-based damage), and at level 13 Reg can tack on another +4 with Godclaw Nobility Domain and his Aura (kicks up to +5 at lvl14):



After that all sorts of nonsense starts rolling in. 8 of this AC is from mods I'm no longer playing and and the four from Wing got nerfed, but still more than enough.



Smite was up on these to pose for the camera but not necessary. It's necessary (along with some Illusion help) against some of the optional bosses midgame but not after Mark shows up. Divine Weapon Bond and Smite also cuts through the Maluses to do some surprsing damage one-handed so if you have the rest to stack it with Mark no reason not to.

 

[MjKorz]

Now, show me your heavy armor characters doing the things a DEX tank does.

Brother I've been spamming these fora with screenshots for years. If you're beating DCs by forty what do you need a tank for in the first place? Solvable game is solvable. I like to give the devs some help keeping it nontrivial where I can. Hindering class level progression to stack unnecessary AC is a way to do that I guess, but not a particularly interesting one. If you simply use the items slots and companions you have in the roles they are designed to play you don't have to do that. Most players would prefer to play the game that way but were misled into believing they had to all use the same frankenstein's monster. You simply don't.

You need to be more precise with your argumentation. If your argument is: "Heavy armor tanks are superior to DEX-based + Archmage Armor ones", then you are wrong. However, if your argument is: "You don't need a 20-dip creatura wearing pajamas to tank unfair", then you are not wrong.

Of course they are.

Your picture isn't a DEX-tank, it's nerfing the progression on a class that is already tortuously slow to come into its own to tack on a splash you wouldn't even need if you weren't trying to tank with a class that isn't set up to do so until later in the game (if at all).

Heavy tanks don't have to worry about flat-footed or being ambushed without buffs up and get to use those two item slots you're not using for significant bonuses that grow throughout the game aside from AC. With Heavy Armor Focus Mythic now a thing it isn't even close.

You have to blow Feats on Weapon Finesse and Mythic Finesse *in addition* to Archmage just to get back to where STR-Heavy already is. And no that doesn't require Smite. On Unfair Pal uses its Smites for Marks usually but can top off as needed lvls 6-11ish.

My court poet build is CourtPoet16/Loremaster3/ScaledFist1. The two secrets I've chosen are Wizard spells Mage Armor and Shield. Shield isn't strictly needed, because you can cast it from scrolls, but I took it for convenience's sake. Court poet gets most of his insightful contemplation buff online at level 8 which is a +4 bonus. To get an additional +2 you have to go through 8 more levels which I leave for after leveling loremaster. So no, I'm not really losing out on anything by not going for CourtPoet16 without dipping loremaster, because by the time you get that extra +2 CHA/INT bonus, it won't matter all that much. However, what I am gaining is CHA->AC conversion without reliance on smites... which I can also get by not getting the Shield spell and resigning myself to using scrolls, but gaining Smite Evil instead on a CourtPoet16/ScaledFist1/Loremaster1/Paladin2 build for insane AC stacking since you convert smite evil deflection bonus into sacred via Aroden's wrath. I don't need this, because I'm perfectly tanky enough and have more than enough damage without needing smites, but scribing scrolls is a real pain.

Court Poets don't have to worry about flat-footed since they get improved uncanny dodge.

Mythic Finesse is not needed when a rapier + fencing grace will more than suffice. The build is not feat hungry so I have enough feats for all the essentials.

Being DEX-based means the character is better at winning initiative than any STR-based character. Higher initiative provides not only a defensive benefit, but also an offensive one as it allows to mythic charge into flat-footed enemies via vulpine pounce at the start of combat - something that a STR-based character can't do well on unfair due to lack of initiative.

And yes, this IS a DEX-based character, because unlike a heavy armor wearing STR-based character, nothing prevents you from stacking extra AC from mental stats without relying on single target smites.

And you forgot one more thing: it's not even a dedicated tank, but a buffer who provides immensely powerful INT/CHA buff to the whole party while tanking unfair from start to finish.

Heavy armor tanks are irrelevant, worthless garbage that serves no purpose in the party, because they have to be specialized tanks like TSS or rely on smites which are not heavy-armor specific and can be used by DEX-based characters as well.

 

[Desiderius]

Now, show me your heavy armor characters doing the things a DEX tank does.

Brother I've been spamming these fora with screenshots for years. If you're beating DCs by forty what do you need a tank for in the first place? Solvable game is solvable. I like to give the devs some help keeping it nontrivial where I can. Hindering class level progression to stack unnecessary AC is a way to do that I guess, but not a particularly interesting one. If you simply use the items slots and companions you have in the roles they are designed to play you don't have to do that. Most players would prefer to play the game that way but were misled into believing they had to all use the same frankenstein's monster. You simply don't.

You need to be more precise with your argumentation. If your argument is: "Heavy armor tanks are superior to DEX-based + Archmage Armor ones", then you are wrong. However, if your argument is: "You don't need a 20-dip creatura wearing pajamas to tank unfair", then you are not wrong.

Of course they are.

Your picture isn't a DEX-tank, it's nerfing the progression on a class that is already tortuously slow to come into its own to tack on a splash you wouldn't even need if you weren't trying to tank with a class that isn't set up to do so until later in the game (if at all).

Heavy tanks don't have to worry about flat-footed or being ambushed without buffs up and get to use those two item slots you're not using for significant bonuses that grow throughout the game aside from AC. With Heavy Armor Focus Mythic now a thing it isn't even close.

You have to blow Feats on Weapon Finesse and Mythic Finesse *in addition* to Archmage just to get back to where STR-Heavy already is. And no that doesn't require Smite. On Unfair Pal uses its Smites for Marks usually but can top off as needed lvls 6-11ish.

My court poet build is CourtPoet16/Loremaster3/ScaledFist1. The two secrets I've chosen are Wizard spells Mage Armor and Shield. Shield isn't strictly needed, because you can cast it from scrolls, but I took it for convenience's sake. Court poet gets most of his insightful contemplation buff online at level 8 which is a +4 bonus. To get an additional +2 you have to go through 8 more levels which I leave for after leveling loremaster. So no, I'm not really losing out on anything by not going for CourtPoet16 without dipping loremaster, because by the time you get that extra +2 CHA/INT bonus, it won't matter all that much. However, what I am gaining is CHA->AC conversion without reliance on smites... which I can also get by not getting the Shield spell and resigning myself to using scrolls, but gaining Smite Evil instead on a CourtPoet16/ScaledFist1/Loremaster1/Paladin2 build for insane AC stacking since you convert smite evil deflection bonus into sacred via Aroden's wrath. I don't need this, because I'm perfectly tanky enough and have more than enough damage without needing smites, but scribing scrolls is a real pain.

Court Poets don't have to worry about flat-footed since they get improved uncanny dodge.

Mythic Finesse is not needed when a rapier + fencing grace will more than suffice. The build is not feat hungry so I have enough feats for all the essentials.

Being DEX-based means the character is better at winning initiative than any STR-based character. Higher initiative provides not only a defensive benefit, but also an offensive one as it allows to mythic charge into flat-footed enemies via vulpine pounce at the start of combat - something that a STR-based character can't do well on unfair due to lack of initiative.

And yes, this IS a DEX-based character, because unlike a heavy armor wearing STR-based character, nothing prevents you from stacking extra AC from mental stats without relying on single target smites.

And you forgot one more thing: it's not even a dedicated tank, but a buffer who provides immensely powerful INT/CHA buff to the whole party while tanking unfair from start to finish.

Heavy armor tanks are irrelevant, worthless garbage that serves no purpose in the party, because they have to be specialized tanks like TSS or rely on smites which are not heavy-armor specific and can be used by DEX-based characters as well.

You don't *need* to open combat with Pounce. Turning on Fighting Defensively is enough. That's why you have a tank. It isn't a solo game. Yeah I forgot you guys are going STR-based anyway while jumping through all these needless hoops just to keep your item slots free from meaningful bonuses. What are you even doing?

Why not... let your buffer buff and cast and fight instead of making it tank? Light Armor and an actual Shield is enough for that since you already have Image. Then you wouldn't have to play a Bard four levels underleveled.

 

[Average Manatee]

Wasn't Insightful Contemplation nerfed?

Not directly. Mythic inspiration was nerfed which in turn resulted in a smaller bonus for insightful contemplation. Before the nerf, the CHA/INT buff from mythic inspiration was: 2 + 2/3MR after MR1. It made sense since an intelligence "bonus" of 1 doesn't actually grant you any bonus unless you have odd stat values so in order to grant a +1 ability modifier bonus you received +2 to CHA/INT, same way you'd receive a +1 bonus to damage which is equivalent to 2 points of STR. Of course, this resulted in a massive DC caster buff and ribbitors lost their shit. Owlclowns then made a special exception for insightful contemplation and cut the effect of mythic inspiration in half specifically for that one buff, because fuck consistency.

Of course, this didn't change anything: spellcasters are still receiving a massive +10 INT/CHA Morale bonus via Insightful Contemplation + Mythic Inspiration at MR10 which is then doubled by the Ring of Triumphant Advance to +20 CHA/INT.

The total nerf was from +28 INT/CHA to a """mere""" +20 INT/CHA.

Ehh, you can't really say that +1 spell DC is worth the same as +1 AB/Damage. Late game you need like 60-80 AB to hit things, but you only need a DC of around 35-40 to autowin every battle with Weird.

What makes this hilarious though is that Incense Synthesizer gets -2 to enemy DCs per incense feat in place of +1 AB/Damage. Yet everyone seems to sleep on that class.

 

[MjKorz]

Now, show me your heavy armor characters doing the things a DEX tank does.

Brother I've been spamming these fora with screenshots for years. If you're beating DCs by forty what do you need a tank for in the first place? Solvable game is solvable. I like to give the devs some help keeping it nontrivial where I can. Hindering class level progression to stack unnecessary AC is a way to do that I guess, but not a particularly interesting one. If you simply use the items slots and companions you have in the roles they are designed to play you don't have to do that. Most players would prefer to play the game that way but were misled into believing they had to all use the same frankenstein's monster. You simply don't.

You need to be more precise with your argumentation. If your argument is: "Heavy armor tanks are superior to DEX-based + Archmage Armor ones", then you are wrong. However, if your argument is: "You don't need a 20-dip creatura wearing pajamas to tank unfair", then you are not wrong.

Of course they are.

Your picture isn't a DEX-tank, it's nerfing the progression on a class that is already tortuously slow to come into its own to tack on a splash you wouldn't even need if you weren't trying to tank with a class that isn't set up to do so until later in the game (if at all).

Heavy tanks don't have to worry about flat-footed or being ambushed without buffs up and get to use those two item slots you're not using for significant bonuses that grow throughout the game aside from AC. With Heavy Armor Focus Mythic now a thing it isn't even close.

You have to blow Feats on Weapon Finesse and Mythic Finesse *in addition* to Archmage just to get back to where STR-Heavy already is. And no that doesn't require Smite. On Unfair Pal uses its Smites for Marks usually but can top off as needed lvls 6-11ish.

My court poet build is CourtPoet16/Loremaster3/ScaledFist1. The two secrets I've chosen are Wizard spells Mage Armor and Shield. Shield isn't strictly needed, because you can cast it from scrolls, but I took it for convenience's sake. Court poet gets most of his insightful contemplation buff online at level 8 which is a +4 bonus. To get an additional +2 you have to go through 8 more levels which I leave for after leveling loremaster. So no, I'm not really losing out on anything by not going for CourtPoet16 without dipping loremaster, because by the time you get that extra +2 CHA/INT bonus, it won't matter all that much. However, what I am gaining is CHA->AC conversion without reliance on smites... which I can also get by not getting the Shield spell and resigning myself to using scrolls, but gaining Smite Evil instead on a CourtPoet16/ScaledFist1/Loremaster1/Paladin2 build for insane AC stacking since you convert smite evil deflection bonus into sacred via Aroden's wrath. I don't need this, because I'm perfectly tanky enough and have more than enough damage without needing smites, but scribing scrolls is a real pain.

Court Poets don't have to worry about flat-footed since they get improved uncanny dodge.

Mythic Finesse is not needed when a rapier + fencing grace will more than suffice. The build is not feat hungry so I have enough feats for all the essentials.

Being DEX-based means the character is better at winning initiative than any STR-based character. Higher initiative provides not only a defensive benefit, but also an offensive one as it allows to mythic charge into flat-footed enemies via vulpine pounce at the start of combat - something that a STR-based character can't do well on unfair due to lack of initiative.

And yes, this IS a DEX-based character, because unlike a heavy armor wearing STR-based character, nothing prevents you from stacking extra AC from mental stats without relying on single target smites.

And you forgot one more thing: it's not even a dedicated tank, but a buffer who provides immensely powerful INT/CHA buff to the whole party while tanking unfair from start to finish.

Heavy armor tanks are irrelevant, worthless garbage that serves no purpose in the party, because they have to be specialized tanks like TSS or rely on smites which are not heavy-armor specific and can be used by DEX-based characters as well.

You don't *need* to open combat with Pounce. Turning on Fighting Defensively is enough. That's why you have a tank. It isn't a solo game. Yeah I forgot you guys are going STR-based anyway while jumping through all these needless hoops just to keep your item slots free from meaningful bonuses. What are you even doing?

Why not... let your buffer buff and cast and fight instead of making it tank? Light Armor and an actual Shield is enough for that since you already have Image. Then you wouldn't have to play a Bard four levels underleveled.

Tanks being able to mythic pounce is free damage, lots of free damage on a tank.

The buffer being the tank frees up a party slot which can be used for a different class instead of being hogged by a worthless heavy armor wearing STR-based tank who can't do anything other than tank. Both of my tanks are not actually tanks, they can just tank in addition to their main purpose, because being DEX-based allows them to: one is a court poet for insighftul contemplation and some divine/arcane buffs and the other is a Shaman16/Loremaster3/ZenArcher1 Lann who provides 24h divine buffs and the full suite of the best hexes: evil eye, protective luck, fortune, chant and then either metal curse or flame curse, depending on the wandering spirit choice which can be flipped whenever.

I do employ STR-based characters, of course: STR+charisma pure 2nd row damage dealers who do nothing but hit things as hard as possible, because that's what STR-based characters are good at, not tanking.

Your party lacks optimization and you're losing party slots to useless shitbuilds.

And you still haven't proven the equivalency of heavy armor tanks to DEX-based tanks. Post your heavy armor "tanks" tanking the water elemental and unfair plagued smilodons in chapter 2.

 

[MjKorz]

Wasn't Insightful Contemplation nerfed?

Not directly. Mythic inspiration was nerfed which in turn resulted in a smaller bonus for insightful contemplation. Before the nerf, the CHA/INT buff from mythic inspiration was: 2 + 2/3MR after MR1. It made sense since an intelligence "bonus" of 1 doesn't actually grant you any bonus unless you have odd stat values so in order to grant a +1 ability modifier bonus you received +2 to CHA/INT, same way you'd receive a +1 bonus to damage which is equivalent to 2 points of STR. Of course, this resulted in a massive DC caster buff and ribbitors lost their shit. Owlclowns then made a special exception for insightful contemplation and cut the effect of mythic inspiration in half specifically for that one buff, because fuck consistency.

Of course, this didn't change anything: spellcasters are still receiving a massive +10 INT/CHA Morale bonus via Insightful Contemplation + Mythic Inspiration at MR10 which is then doubled by the Ring of Triumphant Advance to +20 CHA/INT.

The total nerf was from +28 INT/CHA to a """mere""" +20 INT/CHA.

Ehh, you can't really say that +1 spell DC is worth the same as +1 AB/Damage. Late game you need like 60-80 AB to hit things, but you only need a DC of around 35-40 to autowin every battle with Weird.

What makes this hilarious though is that Incense Synthesizer gets -2 to enemy DCs per incense feat in place of +1 AB/Damage. Yet everyone seems to sleep on that class.

Toxic and Unsettling incenses are highly specialized and reduce saves only vs Poison and Mind-affecting specifically so they have to be more powerful than other comparable effects, especially in a game where you face plenty of mind-affecting immune (undead and Gallu demons) as well as poison immune (demons in general and undead) enemies. Of course, there's corruptor and undead bloodline arcana, but those things don't come for free with the kit.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

What makes this hilarious though is that Incense Synthesizer gets -2 to enemy DCs per incense feat in place of +1 AB/Damage. Yet everyone seems to sleep on that class.

Probably because incenses used to be broken. And now that it works it's still a question of party slots. You probably don't wanna run with 2 aura-based support and Bard/Skald also bring skill checks to the table.

 

[Desiderius]

Wasn't Insightful Contemplation nerfed?

Not directly. Mythic inspiration was nerfed which in turn resulted in a smaller bonus for insightful contemplation. Before the nerf, the CHA/INT buff from mythic inspiration was: 2 + 2/3MR after MR1. It made sense since an intelligence "bonus" of 1 doesn't actually grant you any bonus unless you have odd stat values so in order to grant a +1 ability modifier bonus you received +2 to CHA/INT, same way you'd receive a +1 bonus to damage which is equivalent to 2 points of STR. Of course, this resulted in a massive DC caster buff and ribbitors lost their shit. Owlclowns then made a special exception for insightful contemplation and cut the effect of mythic inspiration in half specifically for that one buff, because fuck consistency.

Of course, this didn't change anything: spellcasters are still receiving a massive +10 INT/CHA Morale bonus via Insightful Contemplation + Mythic Inspiration at MR10 which is then doubled by the Ring of Triumphant Advance to +20 CHA/INT.

The total nerf was from +28 INT/CHA to a """mere""" +20 INT/CHA.

Ehh, you can't really say that +1 spell DC is worth the same as +1 AB/Damage. Late game you need like 60-80 AB to hit things, but you only need a DC of around 35-40 to autowin every battle with Weird.

What makes this hilarious though is that Incense Synthesizer gets -2 to enemy DCs per incense feat in place of +1 AB/Damage. Yet everyone seems to sleep on that class.

The implementation is still a little clunky and you have to watch the rounds of activation. Playing Reanimator I do also miss some of the bomb dice that Synthesizer gives up too.

For most of the game DC is better than AB/AC, especially for companions without a Mythic Path to help out.

 

[Desiderius]

What makes this hilarious though is that Incense Synthesizer gets -2 to enemy DCs per incense feat in place of +1 AB/Damage. Yet everyone seems to sleep on that class.

Probably because incenses used to be broken. And now that it works it's still a question of party slots. You probably don't wanna run with 2 aura-based support and Bard/Skald also bring skill checks to the table.

Alchemist brings enough unique things to the table to be worth a slot, there just isn't much in game to help that class specifically (like there was in P:K since Jub was an Alchemist). Ember Reanimator is a Godsend running without Nenio and for Shield/Retreat and full Barkskins. Bombs target Touch and bypass SR while having high enough DCs to target weak saves. Graveknight hits as hard as an average companion from Reanimator with Necro Staff.



Also has Improved Crit on that Bardiche. Reanimator picks up Create Greater Undead at lvl15 which is pretty big since lvl 5 in Alchemist Spellbook is a wasteland.



Diva Style on Skald has a nice feel to it, especially once it hits Swift activation. Waiting to activate Rage in combat gives other toons a window to get some spells down while still benefitting from the Rage afterward. Skald Moves into position, Swift activates Rage, free Feints, then hits like a truck. Sneaks are relevant when stacked this high. Vitals doesn't care about the usual limit. When they get Final Feint fixed Shatter may be a thing of the past.



Speaking of spells to get down finally got the Holy Whisper crew together. MC Angel, Separtist Sos, Ulb, and Reanimator Ember all good, and Inciter Aru will eventually get there. Hospitaler Seelah with Mythic Channeling can Shield Bash but she tries to get the Extended Holy Whisper on the team first. Probably going to have to kick it up to Unfair for the Fane.

 

[Average Manatee]

What makes this hilarious though is that Incense Synthesizer gets -2 to enemy DCs per incense feat in place of +1 AB/Damage. Yet everyone seems to sleep on that class.

Probably because incenses used to be broken. And now that it works it's still a question of party slots. You probably don't wanna run with 2 aura-based support and Bard/Skald also bring skill checks to the table.

As soon as you get Weird you can solve literally every combat with Nenio and Incense Synthesizer, so that's a lot of room for skill checks. Before then you can Phantasmal Killer basically everything important. Frankly I don't think I've ever had to worry about skill checks with anything except the secret ending, just having 6 characters with high stats beats almost every check.

Toxic and Unsettling incenses are highly specialized and reduce saves only vs Poison and Mind-affecting specifically so they have to be more powerful than other comparable effects, especially in a game where you face plenty of mind-affecting immune (undead and Gallu demons) as well as poison immune (demons in general and undead) enemies. Of course, there's corruptor and undead bloodline arcana, but those things don't come for free with the kit.

Doesn't Grandmaster Rod still allow anything to break any immunity?

 

[MjKorz]

What makes this hilarious though is that Incense Synthesizer gets -2 to enemy DCs per incense feat in place of +1 AB/Damage. Yet everyone seems to sleep on that class.

Probably because incenses used to be broken. And now that it works it's still a question of party slots. You probably don't wanna run with 2 aura-based support and Bard/Skald also bring skill checks to the table.

As soon as you get Weird you can solve literally every combat with Nenio and Incense Synthesizer, so that's a lot of room for skill checks. Frankly I don't think I've ever had to worry about skill checks with anything except the secret ending, just having 6 characters with high stats beats almost every check.

Toxic and Unsettling incenses are highly specialized and reduce saves only vs Poison and Mind-affecting specifically so they have to be more powerful than other comparable effects, especially in a game where you face plenty of mind-affecting immune (undead and Gallu demons) as well as poison immune (demons in general and undead) enemies. Of course, there's corruptor and undead bloodline arcana, but those things don't come for free with the kit.

Doesn't Grandmaster Rod still allow anything to break any immunity?

Grandmaster's Rod only works with instant duration spells, this means damage spells and illusion instant death spells. It doesn't work with spells that have duration in rounds such as enchantments, for example. And you're right, the idea of an incense synthesizer supporting an enchantress-conjurer Nenio with unsettling and toxic incenses is very good.