Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Desiderius]

Can somebody walk me thru the CMB calculation on Deadly Earth? Can’t remember didn’t seem so dominant. How are people gaming it.

 

[Haplo]

Can somebody walk me thru the CMB calculation on Deadly Earth? Can’t remember didn’t seem so dominant. How are people gaming it.

Yeah, I don't think landing it on challenging enemies on higher difficulties can be very easy.

 

[RunningWolf]

Game’s not one-dimensional, not close. And the item in the Tower isnt Skeletal Salesman its found.

One-weird-trickism sux. Both “objectively” power-wise and from an enjoyment of the game perspective. Unless you’re soloing persistent effects are not only not necessary they’re not even very good.

The fact that game isn't one dimensional has nothing to do with the fact that nothing in Kineticist kit is better damage wise than deadly earth.

Just because you're a deadly earth spammer doesn't mean you cant use the rest of your kit. You can precast wall and cloud infusions for example and then initiate with DE so enemies that survive it run into more AOE damage and then spam your blasts.

Problem is you have no good AOE till level 11, so you're stuck doing measly blasts. Another problem is that even when precasting and doing everything perfectly you're still wont outdamage most other damage builds that don't have to bother with dismissing their shit after every fight either and will synergize with the rest of your party. Melees will slap everything for more damage and blasters will blast for more damage. The only exception is very limited DE under demonic rage that does more than 1k damage, which is also not than impressive considering.

 

[Stoned Ape]

Spoiler

Game’s not one-dimensional, not close. And the item in the Tower isnt Skeletal Salesman its found.

One-weird-trickism sux. Both “objectively” power-wise and from an enjoyment of the game perspective. Unless you’re soloing persistent effects are not only not necessary they’re not even very good.

Spoiler

The fact that game isn't one dimensional has nothing to do with the fact that nothing in Kineticist kit is better damage wise than deadly earth.

Just because you're a deadly earth spammer doesn't mean you cant use the rest of your kit. You can precast wall and cloud infusions for example and then initiate with DE so enemies that survive it run into more AOE damage and then spam your blasts.

Problem is you have no good AOE till level 11, so you're stuck doing measly blasts. Another problem is that even when precasting and doing everything perfectly you're still wont outdamage most other damage builds that don't have to bother with dismissing their shit after every fight either and will synergize with the rest of your party. Melees will slap everything for more damage and blasters will blast for more damage. The only exception is very limited DE under demonic rage that does more than 1k damage, which is also not than impressive considering.

Is it worth trying a Dark Elementalist-->Trickster instead? Would enhance blast crit threat range, boost the multiplier, and add sneak attack damage. Could also grab yourself a full Wizard spellbook on top which would synergize well with Int for Dark Elementalist and give you some variety to your play style during late game.

 

[RunningWolf]

Crit damage scales with number of attacks and blast are limited to 2. Kinetic blade isn't limited and also could be interesting to try with Kinetic Whirlwind. Could be decent.

But then you remember that there are classes that aren't mediocre for the first 13 levels and it kinda loses its appeal.

 

[Desiderius]

Sounds like you’re soloing.

 

[Desiderius]

You noted that Kinnies are kings of staying power but Wrath is a game that usually doesn't need it. But thats not always the case. In Grey Garrison or Labyrinth your Kn could carry a team of companions like Wolj that are significantly weaker when they run out of spells.

You *can* rest in Garrison, but you lose your Haste.

DE is the extreme example because it gets *stronger* the more you fight, in fact requires it, then stays there indefinitely. DE with UMD Trick spellbook would be pretty funny, but you don’t have Feats/abilities of a caster. Guess you could take over buffs to free up their slots to beat saves.

 

[Desiderius]

Blade is OK but doesnt get second attack until lvl 8. Good with Whirlwind sure maybe a little too good.

I was pretty happy with Eruption on Kanerah for AoE. You *can* use Full Gather and or Burn for key Blasts and outside of those you dont need to be one-shotting everything just consistent damage/debuff like Jub Bombs.

Would be funny if Blasts worked with Vital Strike. They don’t, right?

 

[ArchAngel]

Game’s not one-dimensional, not close. And the item in the Tower isnt Skeletal Salesman its found.

One-weird-trickism sux. Both “objectively” power-wise and from an enjoyment of the game perspective. Unless you’re soloing persistent effects are not only not necessary they’re not even very good.

The fact that game isn't one dimensional has nothing to do with the fact that nothing in Kineticist kit is better damage wise than deadly earth.

Just because you're a deadly earth spammer doesn't mean you cant use the rest of your kit. You can precast wall and cloud infusions for example and then initiate with DE so enemies that survive it run into more AOE damage and then spam your blasts.

Problem is you have no good AOE till level 11, so you're stuck doing measly blasts. Another problem is that even when precasting and doing everything perfectly you're still wont outdamage most other damage builds that don't have to bother with dismissing their shit after every fight either and will synergize with the rest of your party. Melees will slap everything for more damage and blasters will blast for more damage. The only exception is very limited DE under demonic rage that does more than 1k damage, which is also not than impressive considering.

It depends on your gameplay. For example in Baldur's Gate 1 you didn't need any fighters in your group. You could just spam spells and rest, spam and rest. But if didn't do that you needed those that can do reliable damage round after round.
Similarly in WotR I usually rested as little as I could get away with, especially when it didn't make sense to be able to spam rests. In that case that Kineticist keep spamming its "strongest" blast round after round while my wizards/sorcerers usually cast one per combat unless it is a boss fight/dangerous encounter. And that is how those classes are balanced from PnP.

 

[Desiderius]

It depends on your gameplay. For example in Baldur's Gate 1 you didn't need any fighters in your group. You could just spam spells and rest, spam and rest.
In WotR I usually rested as little as I could get away with, especially when it didn't make sense. In that case that Kineticist keep spamming its "strongest" blast round after round while my wizards/sorcerers usually cast one per combat unless it is a boss fight/dangerous encounter. And that is how those classes are balanced from PnP.

That made your Kingdom stronger in P:K, but it makes your army weaker in Wrath. Since you're besieging the Demons time is on your side.

Less rest = better items/buffs sooner (level-wise) in P:K. Wrath is the opposite.

 

[ArchAngel]

It depends on your gameplay. For example in Baldur's Gate 1 you didn't need any fighters in your group. You could just spam spells and rest, spam and rest.
In WotR I usually rested as little as I could get away with, especially when it didn't make sense. In that case that Kineticist keep spamming its "strongest" blast round after round while my wizards/sorcerers usually cast one per combat unless it is a boss fight/dangerous encounter. And that is how those classes are balanced from PnP.

That made your Kingdom stronger in P:K, but it makes your army weaker in Wrath. Since you're besieging the Demons time is on your side.

Less rest = better items/buffs sooner (level-wise) in P:K. Wrath is the opposite.

Time spent in tactical does not matter for that. When I manage the crusade I just spam next day as much as I want.

 

[RunningWolf]

I also rest as little as i can. But i play melee heavy parties with 1 full arcane and 1 full divine. So maybe that's why i don't see limitless mediocre damage of Kineticist as a desirable trait.

Vital strike doesn't work.

 

[ArchAngel]

I also rest as little as i can. But i play melee heavy parties with 1 full arcane and 1 full divine. So maybe that's why i don't see limitless mediocre damage of Kineticist as a desirable trait.

Vital strike doesn't work.

It worked on my melee focused Sosiel with a Glaive since he could not hit shit with his iterative attacks while having Power Attack on.

 

[Desiderius]

Man, the force of habit is a helluva drug. Skipping days is bad in both games.

There’s the obvious like Morale and Scribing (ton of stuff you can do with this but just the simple things like Hurricane scrolls for Lann or Veil of Heaven for melee, every class can be an Alchemist and share Personal spells) and exploring/traveling (the map was designed to have a lot of that), but the most important thing is that using your rests opens up all your rnd/lvl spells like Vitals, Divine Favor/Power, and Instant Enemy and abilities like Bane Weapon and the like you often couldn’t afford in P:K.

A class like Warpriest that wold be pure garbage in P:K ends up pretty good in Wrath. But you’ve got to use your rests to recharge the abilities, and in Wrath it makes you stronger rather than weaker to do so if you take your time with your armies to do so.

Bubble buff mod makes it all painless.

Can also use rests tactically to scout enemies then memorize spells that work well against them in the AD&D spirit.

 

[Desiderius]

I also rest as little as i can. But i play melee heavy parties with 1 full arcane and 1 full divine. So maybe that's why i don't see limitless mediocre damage of Kineticist as a desirable trait.

Vital strike doesn't work.

It worked on my melee focused Sosiel with a Glaive since he could not hit shit with his iterative attacks while having Power Attack on.

He’s talking about Kinnie. If you weren’t skipping days you could use his rnd/lvl self-buffs to hit fine tho. Kind of the strength of the class.

 

[Average Manatee]

Where Kineticist becomes stupid is when you start to spend time pre-battle doing a full kamehameha to summon multiple maximized empowered AoEs for zero burn. Then you start combat and enemies run right over them taking both huge damage and needing multiple CMB checks per round.

 

[Desiderius]

Potion-crafting is sadly unfinished at the moment but there are some decent higher level ones if you want to blow a Mythic on a companion you aren't using to make them when you’re resting in the Citadel.

Aru (?) starts with the regular version I think.

 

[Acrux]

Next DLC delayed.

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1184370/view/3362518992733540276

The cursed ship is being delayed
New release date for the 3rd DLC

Hello, adventurers!

This will be a short update regarding The Treasure of the Midnight Isles DLC. As we were testing and polishing it, we’ve realized that some parts of it could use more love (and demonic corruption), but we were running out of time to do it. So, after some consideration, we decided to move the release date. Your cursed ship will arrive to port on the 30th of August, and meanwhile we’ll scrub the deck, place more loot, and hide the nastiest monsters and traps in places where you least expect them.

We apologize for delaying your cursed holidays in the depths of the Abyss, but such an expedition requires a thorough preparation, and we need to make sure you have everything before you set sail.

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah, I've played with Woljif as a straight ET a couple of times; he's extremely effective. Also multi-clessed him with Vivi (both as a 12/8 and a 3/17 spilt) and yes, he is strong (unless you get ambushed on the overland map by a pack of plagued smilodons and you can't get his buffs up in time).

Again, I wanted to experiment with him and so far, I've had zero problems running him as a ET/EA.

Bottom line is that for better or for worse it looks like the intended play pattern is to get replayability/variety via different group make-ups and different options within the starting classes (and there are a ton, especially with Second Mystery/Spirit on Daeran/Cam) instead of multi-classing like you can do productively on some companions in P:K. Maybe because they saw how badly people butchered things in P:K with 3.5-style dipping and splashing and were trying to nudge them in the PF direction of getting that same effect from leveling within one hybrid class.

Here are some of the options within the starting classes I've found:

Seelah:

Divine Weapon Bond vs Mount: Mount probably just flat-out better but Horse is awkward in many areas. Divine Bond very good since min/lvl, can be use for Barrage etc, uses her Shield Focus better since she gets attacked more.
Mythic Spell Focus Evocation vs combat Feats: great with Archons, Holy Whisper is awkward since not many (other) Good melee companions and Crusader's Edge already applies Sicken, Resounding Blow very good tho.
Shield Bash vs Intimidation Feats: many great Bashing Shields and takes better advantage of Smite Bonuses but takes most of your Feats, works well with Balanced Defender Sword (gives +3 to Bash), other CHR-based companions can Intimidate, eventually get Frightful Aspect
Mythic Improved Initiative helps get Mark down faster for rest of team vs Mythic two-weapon or Spell Focus, Abundant Casting vs Last Stand etc...

Lann:

Can multiclass well P:K style

Cam:

Melee vs Ranged
Caster focus (she gets good late spells including Stinking Cloud at lvl 5 and/or can meta Snowball with Second Mystery Frost and Secret Hex for meta and even go Winter Witch - very good vs Devarra and high AC/SR foes) vs melee Focus (effective tank, especially with both False Lifes and Thorn Body, Ghost Touch and Bane Weapon)
A lot of ways to go with Hexes including prereq for Shatter

Ember:

Infinite options (kind of the point of her class)
Conj (bypasses SR) with Summoning, Necro Rays with Reach Rod Curse + Hexes, Cackle, Burn ok but not great because Meta makes Spontaneous Full Action, Bow (she's an Elf) + Transformation, Enchantment (her unique spell is Enchantment)

Sosiel:

Combat Focus with Self-buffs (including great Domain abilities with Domain Zealot)
Evo nuker with Mythic Focus (makes Archon's better, Holy Smite always on, easy Meta with Favorite Meta)
Abjurer with Mythic Focus Abjuration for Banish/Dismissal (plenty of targets) and Dispel, Greater
Necro Touch spells

Daeran:

Mounted with Second Mystery Nature (helps overcome his drawback, a lot of work to make him viable in melee but gets there eventually, can choose Wolf which is easier to maneuver but bad with Frightful Aspect)
Ancestral Mystery buffer Evo nuker (sets up with for Unholy Stormbolts using Blackwater Gauntlets and Max Unholy Rod)
Battle Mystery melee with Divine self-buffs
Bones mystery Necro?

Wolj:

Transmuter for Swift Slow/Obsidian Flow
Evo nuker from straight ES to get to Hellfire (pick up Favorite Meta along the way)
Underhanded Trick with True Strike

Aru:

Xbow crit fisher vs Longbow Enlarged
Instant Enemy spammer vs buffer
Instill Vigor + Stone Call, she can even beat saves with high CHR if your want to try to get there with Entangle + ranged team, Life Blast good vs Undead
Snap Shot Tripper with Aspect of Wolf

That's off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others. A lot depends on what MC is doing.

 

[Desiderius]

Next DLC delayed.

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1184370/view/3362518992733540276

Good. Seems like they've freed up some people who know what they're doing from Rogue Trader. Maybe now they can finally get Wrath into playable shape.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Bones mystery Necro?

I leveled my Daeran like this when playing as a melee lich. Lots of blasting power boneshaker and shatter are viable till end game.
Also fits his character really well IMHO, for RP reasons.

Edit:
Also in my latest run, I leveled Regill as Sohei. He was suprisingly effective and mount didn't really fall that behind.

 

[RunningWolf]

Because you get level 19 mount(so all feats) with boon companion, due to the way its coded. Mounts are in general very good way to salvage a companion on higher difficulties. I leveled Woljif as Arcane Rider in my Skald trickster game. I value no headache trying to keep suboptimal companions alive, they supplement your damage before you ramp it up and make sure you always full attacking. On top of being an extra HP pool that only needs a rest to revive. S tier for melee.

 

[Desiderius]

But I don’t need any of that.

You go from best base AC/AB in the game (he took down Hard Playful in one round) with +5 AC AoE aura and Tiny maneuverability to a big clunky horse where he can’t even reach anything without Enlarge which is the opposite of what he wants to ne doing. Do people not even know that Reduce Person exists? It’s like Crane splash in one spell for DEX-based. And +2 AB.

Whole point of DEX-based is the extra AC DEX gives you. You waste it on a Mount and its going to be a slog to get his Mobility high enough for the Mounted Feats without tanking his Intimidation and maybe even if you do.

If you want a Sohei play it MC or bring a Merc. Probably want to wait for a mod that adds Quick Draw since Sohei Weapon Training is weird and can’t get Point Blank Master so I think switching weapons is intended play pattern.

 

[RunningWolf]

But I don’t need any of that.

Its not about the needing to its about the wanting to. Wanting to not be a wet paper towel, but a horse riding Chad(Or get a level of Beast Rider and have a good boy).

Mount is the single best feature in this game. Spirited Charge is the best feat in the game with a Skald party. 16 levels of Arcane Rider gives you all you need from the class, including the ability to hit touch AC(bye bye playful).

 

[Desiderius]

But I don’t need any of that.

Its not about the needing to its about the wanting to. Wanting to not be a wet paper towel, but a horse riding Chad(Or get a level of Beast Rider and have a good boy).

Mount is the single best feature in this game. Spirited Charge is the best feat in the game with a Skald party. 16 levels of Arcane Rider gives you all you need from the class, including the ability to hit touch AC(bye buy playful).

Then play it MC or Merc. That’s the point. Playing any class three (or in Reg’s case six) levels underleveled is no fun. The high level abilities and building up the per class level abilities (including spells!) is what makes any class good.

Wiz 7 multiclassing: Wiz 8 multiclassing :: 3.5 : PF