Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[NJClaw]

is it worth it to take 3 lvls of mutation warrior on a paladin build? mainly for the flask plus the feats.

I played a Paladin with 2 Fighter levels and I'd say it can be worth it for the feats only if you want to go down the Greater Vital Strike + Improved Cleaving Finish route, which breaks things so much that anything else no longer really matters. But I wouldn't do it for anything else (and especially not for the mutagen).

 

[Haplo]

Eh, Hasty halfling looses the racial Mobility bonus.. and standard halflings have poor move speed. Hmm.

So it seems my choices for the Mobility 2 build are:

• Plumekith Aasimar: Bonuses to Dex and Wis; Athletics and Mobility
• Hasty halfling: lack of Mobility bonus; also seems to move kinda slow? Wonder if the Speed bonus is actually working?
• Human: no racial Mobility bonus, but more skill points and extra feat can fund Skill Focus Mobility or Stealthy..
• Half-elf: apears to be an inferior version of humans, with no extra skill points
• Kitsune... which again appears the strongest option with bonuses to Dex & Int, racial bonus to Mobility - and with Master Shapeshifter leaves the rest in the dust...

In effect its between humans (probably worst pick), plumekith aasimar and... the master kitsune race :/

 

[Yosharian]

Its definately still the case. You can do multiple AoOs vs enemies until they are dead, regardless if they have Combat Reflexes or not.
Tried it yesterday

A bit refreshing not to play a kitsune for a change. I mean, kitsune is still optimal stat-wise with Master Shapeshifter, but a tiny hasty halfling with a considerably sized elven curved blade dancing and running in circles around large demons is just hilarious... Will be even funnier with Microscopic Proportions... like an annoying, buzzing fly, LOL. With a big sting.

Won't work if you don't have Acrobatic Movement triggered, if they have spent their AoO or can't pinpoint you (for example you are invisible/they are blind, feared and probably a couple CC effects more).
Unfortunately can't do it before the enemies have acted, though (unless they have Uncanny Dodge).

Still debating if worth it to get 1 Rowdy / 1 Loremaster for Vital Strike, GVS and Vital Force. Probably not necessary, but maybe good to have a solid Standard action to fall back on in case the method is not fool-proof... or simply to have a good opener/finisher. Also considering picking 4 levels in Instinctual Warrior. More Move Speed (+20 with Rage Power), Initiative and AC, Uncanny Dodge, more attack and damage... should be pretty good.

I see. Well, seems like a bit of a gimmick.

 

[Haplo]

It certainly is. But fits the Trickster theme. And appears VERY effective.

 

[Yosharian]

What I mean is that it seems like it will be very effective when it works but when you're not able to use it for whatever reasons, you just lost a shit ton of your power.

Legend's 10+ APR 1k mounted damage a crit may be a bit more straightforward and not as flashy, but at least the enemy can't turn it off

 

[Desiderius]

But doesn't Paladin get bane eventually from his Weapon Bond by any chance?

I went with the Horse with Seelah (which turned out to be a good decision, he's the tankiest member of the party), but according to the Wiki, no.

Alternatively, they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, and speed.

I think Axiomatic and Holy could also work, worth checking. But yeah, the horsie is better.

For some parties. I'm with Haplo on the pathing tho. Looking forward to getting her back on the ground next playthrough. Balanced Defender with Keen, Holy, and Axiomatic is no joke.

 

[Desiderius]

Its definately still the case. You can do multiple AoOs vs enemies until they are dead, regardless if they have Combat Reflexes or not.
Tried it yesterday

A bit refreshing not to play a kitsune for a change. I mean, kitsune is still optimal stat-wise with Master Shapeshifter, but a tiny hasty halfling with a considerably sized elven curved blade dancing and running in circles around large demons is just hilarious... Will be even funnier with Microscopic Proportions... like an annoying, buzzing fly, LOL. With a big sting.

Won't work if you don't have Acrobatic Movement triggered, if they have spent their AoO or can't pinpoint you (for example you are invisible/they are blind, feared and probably a couple CC effects more).
Unfortunately can't do it before the enemies have acted, though (unless they have Uncanny Dodge).

Still debating if worth it to get 1 Rowdy / 1 Loremaster for Vital Strike, GVS and Vital Force. Probably not necessary, but maybe good to have a solid Standard action to fall back on in case the method is not fool-proof... or simply to have a good opener/finisher. Also considering picking 4 levels in Instinctual Warrior. More Move Speed (+20 with Rage Power), Initiative and AC, Uncanny Dodge, more attack and damage... should be pretty good.

I see. Well, seems like a bit of a gimmick.

One-weird-trick

 

[Haplo]

What I mean is that it seems like it will be very effective when it works but when you're not able to use it for whatever reasons, you just lost a shit ton of your power.

Legend's 10+ APR 1k mounted damage a crit may be a bit more straightforward and not as flashy, but at least the enemy can't turn it off

Of course, there's plenty of broken stuff.

But this trick has the advantage of potentially cleaning whole screens of enemies in one go. Othewise you're generally limited by your weapon's reach (and if you charge, you often can't position your character optimally to reach multiple enemies with an attack, as charge automatically maps a straight line towards chosen enemy).

On the other hand, 46 AoOs? I'm not seeing that. I'd be happy to trigger 20 (which means Sword Saint mustn't necessarily be the best option).

 

[RunningWolf]

The game still double charges in rtwp. So if you ramp up damage correctly and oneshot an enemy you will automatically move to the next as a part of a charge action still. And most rooms are small enough for any reach weapon to cower most of it under legendary.
Its not uncommon to charge a room and clean it almost immediately in rtwp. And it actually better to charge something in the middle of the encounter so the enemies group up on you while you charging.

I think its the fastest way to clean rooms full of melees, outside of some end game nuke/weird casters naturally.

 

[Haplo]

I see, that's interesting. Wouldn't know, as I play Turn Based

 

[razvedchiki]

is it worth it to take 3 lvls of mutation warrior on a paladin build? mainly for the flask plus the feats.

I played a Paladin with 2 Fighter levels and I'd say it can be worth it for the feats only if you want to go down the Greater Vital Strike + Improved Cleaving Finish route, which breaks things so much that anything else no longer really matters. But I wouldn't do it for anything else (and especially not for the mutagen).

the mutagen gives +2 to hit/dmg and 2 ac, and you get 5 feats if human for 3 fightan lvls. thus you get crane style/outflank and shatter at lvl 6 which a paladin couldnt do otherwise. the only thing you get later as pal this way are the spells, veil of heaven is a nice sacred +2 ac and lasts a long time.

 

[Haplo]

is it worth it to take 3 lvls of mutation warrior on a paladin build? mainly for the flask plus the feats.

I played a Paladin with 2 Fighter levels and I'd say it can be worth it for the feats only if you want to go down the Greater Vital Strike + Improved Cleaving Finish route, which breaks things so much that anything else no longer really matters. But I wouldn't do it for anything else (and especially not for the mutagen).

the mutagen gives +2 to hit/dmg and 2 ac, and you get 5 feats if human for 3 fightan lvls. thus you get crane style/outflank and shatter at lvl 6 which a paladin couldnt do otherwise. the only thing you get later as pal this way are the spells, veil of heaven is a nice sacred +2 ac and lasts a long time.

More imporantly Bless Weapon makes you auto-confirm criticals vs Evil targets. Can last 24hrs with Greater Enduring Spells.

 

[Desiderius]

I don't really understand

Yes, that's apparent.

Pal is a CHR class. Every point of CHR bonus is +1 AB *for the team* on Mark (and for Seelah herself with Smite). All of her other abilities use CHR as well, CHR to saves etc...

The game has two classes of enemies, bosses and non-bosses. It's worth it to sacrifice some always on stuff to be able to spike the team on bosses because there is such a gap between the two. That's what makes the rnd/lvl and limited use per rest stuff good even if there weren't a lot more rest available. On Unfair I've run into AC (and nat 20) issues with regular mobs, but you should still be able to hit them with solid team play. It's the bosses where that's an issue.

In general physical stat bonuses are much easier to come by than caster stats so I lean that way anyway, but on Pal it's a no-brainer. Once you're there you can look at saves on things that are free action econ, AoE, and/or high # of procs. Stuff like that even 25% chance of beating a save makes an impact and if you're consistently applying Sicken (from Edge), Shaken, and Archon's (mostly from Cleric) you can get it higher than that without much investment. Your relevant stuff in those categories is Evocation (no Challenge Evil) so you're looking at two Feats and a Mythic for +4 DC, which is steep. The sheer number of saves it effects with Archon's it may still be worth it. If I go that way I trade Shatter for it + Improved Initiative since she already spikes the team so well.

I don't really understand the point of these offensive Spells on Paladins. If you're building your Paladin in such a way that he can reliably beat enemy Saves, all you're getting is just a very gimped Cleric.

And if you're building it for melee you're a very gimped Elder Dragon. Irrelevant. She's on the team for Mark and Fear Immunity and several other Pal unique things plus this setting turns on all Pal abilities cancelling the downside of the class. This is Daidre's subpar fallacy. That's only relevant when deciding what to bring. Once she's there the question is how to get the most out of her.

No reason for the Paladin to waste slots on this, that's the Cleric's/Oracle's job.

... every buff the Paladin/Ranger handles is one more slot for the higher DC Cleric/Wiz to cast something save beating. I thought this was basic. Daidre has already pointed out how crowded fourth-level slots are for Cleric so this extends your Cleric's number of slots, the more and longer lasting per Pal level. MGW is particularly good because it's hour/lvl so doesn't care about lower Pal CL (saving slots for Wiz Hastes alternatively). Likewise if your Divine Caster is Daeran you can let the Pal handle the situational stuff since it's non-spontaneous.

There is a trade-off between doing that and unique Paladin spells but the unique Pal spells at third level aren't that great for the context (limited number of Good melee companions for Holy Whisper for instance), while Death Ward and Resto are situational things you can switch in and out of.

Shield of Faith gives you the same Deflection bonus, the DR of 10 isn't really impressive at the point in the game when you get the Spell (though putting a Stoneskin on top of it ain't half bad), you don't need a bonus on Saves against poison when there's a way to make yourself immune to it via Communal Delay Poison which is a long-lasting buff. The bonus to all Saves against Evil in an AoE is nice, though.

Yeah, freeing up six Cloak slots (more like four but I don't sweat saves as much on ranged anyway) is kind of good. Especially when there are two of the Skin Flaying Cloaks in game.

Again tho with Shield of Faith it's one slot for six (or however many SoFs you usually keep up). I use those for Divine Favors to turn the Cleric into a full BAB class (with Stunning Barrier for Crusader) but there's a lot you can do with it. DR/Evil is mostly garbage since most Demons bypass it, but there are some foes that don't. The point is Pal gets the spell at lvl 13 where even straight Sorc/Oracle doesn't until 16. 13 is pretty damn early for an Eighth Level Wiz/Cleric spell. Even Wiz Cleric doesn't until 15 and Seelah is in much better position in combat to get the most out of it.

This one is objectively trash, because the earliest you can get it is at level 13, and you'd have to squint real hard to notice a difference from getting an additional 1d6 damage per hit at that point in the game. Good luck trying to Stagger anything with it too.

Luck is the residue of design. That one is pretty late game, but it's save or die on Crit and late game she does get some crits even without Shatter since she's autoconfirming. I've even picked up Shatter on the back-end when I go Evo focus so it ends up proccing a good bit.

Stagger's not save or die but it's a nice one on some of the more dangerous regular mobs with a ton of attacks. Those are easier to hit and have lower saves. On bosses I'm already debuffing saves in various ways so even at 25% chance of beating the save I've got her on high # number of attax mode with Balance Defender (+3 AB on Sword and Shield) so boss has to dodge a lot of them.

 

[Desiderius]

is it worth it to take 3 lvls of mutation warrior on a paladin build? mainly for the flask plus the feats.

I played a Paladin with 2 Fighter levels and I'd say it can be worth it for the feats only if you want to go down the Greater Vital Strike + Improved Cleaving Finish route, which breaks things so much that anything else no longer really matters. But I wouldn't do it for anything else (and especially not for the mutagen).

the mutagen gives +2 to hit/dmg and 2 ac, and you get 5 feats if human for 3 fightan lvls. thus you get crane style/outflank and shatter at lvl 6 which a paladin couldnt do otherwise. the only thing you get later as pal this way are the spells, veil of heaven is a nice sacred +2 ac and lasts a long time.

You're getting +2 AB on your Pal, I'm getting +6 AB on my team with Burst of Glory.

 

[Stoned Ape]

is it worth it to take 3 lvls of mutation warrior on a paladin build? mainly for the flask plus the feats.

I played a Paladin with 2 Fighter levels and I'd say it can be worth it for the feats only if you want to go down the Greater Vital Strike + Improved Cleaving Finish route, which breaks things so much that anything else no longer really matters. But I wouldn't do it for anything else (and especially not for the mutagen).

the mutagen gives +2 to hit/dmg and 2 ac, and you get 5 feats if human for 3 fightan lvls. thus you get crane style/outflank and shatter at lvl 6 which a paladin couldnt do otherwise. the only thing you get later as pal this way are the spells, veil of heaven is a nice sacred +2 ac and lasts a long time.

Personally I'd wait until after getting Mark of Justice (level 11) before thinking about switching away from Paladin.

Delaying Mark by 3 levels is, in my opinion, not the best plan. Not having it available makes the tougher fights in Chapter 3 much harder than they need to be, and you probably won't reach level 14 until near the end of the chapter.

I'd also suggest that it's probably better to wait to get Outflank until the majority of your party can get it with you; normally I take it at level 7 when the NPCs that join later can grab it (Regill/Soseil).

 

[RunningWolf]

Take the spirited charge pill under our Lord and Savior The Skald and forget about all those paltry bonuses. Double the damage baby.

 

[Desiderius]

This is why you go for max CHR on Pal:



Core but still (for the multiclassers this is Pal11/Cav9 Seelah also applying that +9 on For the King). Gotta love the -11 Power Attack on Legend.

 

[razvedchiki]

i always have a cleric with community domain to get over high mob ac so mark of justice is not priority.

 

[Desiderius]

i always have a cleric with community domain to get over high mob ac so mark of justice is not priority.

Then don't include a Pal at all. Took me a long time to test Hearth because it was kind of a meme. I found it surprisingly clunky. Not a good fit with the Zerg. Probably better TB? Also doesn't stack with Touch of Good so not great on Sos.

But I think you can kind of use everything you can get on Unfair bosses at least and sometimes Hard.

 

[IllusiveBrian]

Its definately still the case. You can do multiple AoOs vs enemies until they are dead, regardless if they have Combat Reflexes or not.
Tried it yesterday

A bit refreshing not to play a kitsune for a change. I mean, kitsune is still optimal stat-wise with Master Shapeshifter, but a tiny hasty halfling with a considerably sized elven curved blade dancing and running in circles around large demons is just hilarious... Will be even funnier with Microscopic Proportions... like an annoying, buzzing fly, LOL. With a big sting.

Won't work if you don't have Acrobatic Movement triggered, if they have spent their AoO or can't pinpoint you (for example you are invisible/they are blind, feared and probably a couple CC effects more).
Unfortunately can't do it before the enemies have acted, though (unless they have Uncanny Dodge).

Still debating if worth it to get 1 Rowdy / 1 Loremaster for Vital Strike, GVS and Vital Force. Probably not necessary, but maybe good to have a solid Standard action to fall back on in case the method is not fool-proof... or simply to have a good opener/finisher. Also considering picking 4 levels in Instinctual Warrior. More Move Speed (+20 with Rage Power), Initiative and AC, Uncanny Dodge, more attack and damage... should be pretty good.

I made my current character to try and take advantage of this, except Fey Primalist (for animal totem) with a rapier. Currently ML5 so I haven't had a chance to play with the Mobility 2 trick yet (I think they should roll the Perception 2 trick into attaining ML 4 and come up with something else for Perception 2, but anyway). I'm hoping endgame will be me using I think 90ft of movement to proc all the AoOs and then try to end my turn somewhere where I can charge through and proc more AoOs to respond while mythic charge is active.

 

[zapotec]

Steel Soul used to grant only +2 racial bonus to saving throws, instead of +4 – fixed;

they really read my Kingmaker release reports

It's still bugged in Kingmaker? I reported it in december i think

 

[Desiderius]

Its definately still the case. You can do multiple AoOs vs enemies until they are dead, regardless if they have Combat Reflexes or not.
Tried it yesterday

A bit refreshing not to play a kitsune for a change. I mean, kitsune is still optimal stat-wise with Master Shapeshifter, but a tiny hasty halfling with a considerably sized elven curved blade dancing and running in circles around large demons is just hilarious... Will be even funnier with Microscopic Proportions... like an annoying, buzzing fly, LOL. With a big sting.

Won't work if you don't have Acrobatic Movement triggered, if they have spent their AoO or can't pinpoint you (for example you are invisible/they are blind, feared and probably a couple CC effects more).
Unfortunately can't do it before the enemies have acted, though (unless they have Uncanny Dodge).

Still debating if worth it to get 1 Rowdy / 1 Loremaster for Vital Strike, GVS and Vital Force. Probably not necessary, but maybe good to have a solid Standard action to fall back on in case the method is not fool-proof... or simply to have a good opener/finisher. Also considering picking 4 levels in Instinctual Warrior. More Move Speed (+20 with Rage Power), Initiative and AC, Uncanny Dodge, more attack and damage... should be pretty good.

I made my current character to try and take advantage of this, except Fey Primalist (for animal totem) with a rapier. Currently ML5 so I haven't had a chance to play with the Mobility 2 trick yet (I think they should roll the Perception 2 trick into attaining ML 4 and come up with something else for Perception 2, but anyway). I'm hoping endgame will be me using I think 90ft of movement to proc all the AoOs and then try to end my turn somewhere where I can charge through and proc more AoOs to respond while mythic charge is active.

You... don't have to take the Perception Trick. Those Feats still cost a Feat. Can't kill a corpse.

 

[Haplo]

Or, well, respec after getting the 2nd one. That's what I'm loosely planning. A shame not to have this crit potential, but even worse not to use your intended playstyle trough most of the game.

 

[Desiderius]

Steel Soul used to grant only +2 racial bonus to saving throws, instead of +4 – fixed;

they really read my Kingmaker release reports

It's still bugged in Kingmaker? I reported it in december i think

Should get on it by 2030 at the latest.

 

[Haplo]

Its definately still the case. You can do multiple AoOs vs enemies until they are dead, regardless if they have Combat Reflexes or not.
Tried it yesterday

A bit refreshing not to play a kitsune for a change. I mean, kitsune is still optimal stat-wise with Master Shapeshifter, but a tiny hasty halfling with a considerably sized elven curved blade dancing and running in circles around large demons is just hilarious... Will be even funnier with Microscopic Proportions... like an annoying, buzzing fly, LOL. With a big sting.

Won't work if you don't have Acrobatic Movement triggered, if they have spent their AoO or can't pinpoint you (for example you are invisible/they are blind, feared and probably a couple CC effects more).
Unfortunately can't do it before the enemies have acted, though (unless they have Uncanny Dodge).

Still debating if worth it to get 1 Rowdy / 1 Loremaster for Vital Strike, GVS and Vital Force. Probably not necessary, but maybe good to have a solid Standard action to fall back on in case the method is not fool-proof... or simply to have a good opener/finisher. Also considering picking 4 levels in Instinctual Warrior. More Move Speed (+20 with Rage Power), Initiative and AC, Uncanny Dodge, more attack and damage... should be pretty good.

I made my current character to try and take advantage of this, except Fey Primalist (for animal totem) with a rapier. Currently ML5 so I haven't had a chance to play with the Mobility 2 trick yet (I think they should roll the Perception 2 trick into attaining ML 4 and come up with something else for Perception 2, but anyway). I'm hoping endgame will be me using I think 90ft of movement to proc all the AoOs and then try to end my turn somewhere where I can charge through and proc more AoOs to respond while mythic charge is active.

Hmm, can you explain how do you get 90ft?
Base 30, buff +30 (do some of them stack?), +10 Primalist... where is the rest? Do you also plan to take Fast Movement Rage Powers?