Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Crispy]

Am I really going to lose Seelah permanently when I go full lich?

This is really going to hit me hard because I'm playing with the option for only my active party members to receive experience points and haven't built up anyone else even close to resembling a tank.

It might hurt so bad to lose her that now I'm second-guessing going lich at all.

Please advise, and please do so without specific spoilers -- and by tagging me (I avoid this thread in general so as to not spoil myself).

Thanks from Ye Olde Man.

 

[Raghar]

Am I really going to lose Seelah permanently when I go full lich?

This is really going to hit me hard because I'm playing with the option for only my active party members to receive experience points and haven't built up anyone else even close to resembling a tank.

It might hurt so bad to lose her that now I'm second-guessing going lich at all.

Please advise, and please do so without specific spoilers -- and by tagging me (I avoid this thread in general so as to not spoil myself).

Thanks from Ye Olde Man.

It's big BLACK WOMAN. Why do you need a BIG black woman?

Spider lady can tank. You can get mercenary to tank. Or you can play RPG and have party members instead of tanks.

 

[The_Mask]

It might hurt so bad to lose her that now I'm second-guessing going lich at all.

Liches don't have companions to tank for them. Liches MAKE their own tanks to tank for them.

And Liches don't second guess. Liches walk the path to immortality with confidence and determination, sacrificing anything superfluous; such as poorly written black paladins.

 

[smaug]

Am I really going to lose Seelah permanently when I go full lich?

This is really going to hit me hard because I'm playing with the option for only my active party members to receive experience points and haven't built up anyone else even close to resembling a tank.

It might hurt so bad to lose her that now I'm second-guessing going lich at all.

Please advise, and please do so without specific spoilers -- and by tagging me (I avoid this thread in general so as to not spoil myself).

Thanks from Ye Olde Man.

Playing with active companion experience is going to hurt you later in the game, majorly.

 

[Crispy]

Well, choices and consequences.

 

[LannTheStupid]

poorly written black paladins.

Why is Seelah poorly written?

She is a Lawful Good Paladin of a warrior deity Iomedae who has the internal motivation of a Neutral Good Cleric of Sarenrae, the goddess of redemption. She is a Tristian in paladin's clothing. And that's how she is written. I don't know whether this conflict will be resolved or not, but her second personal quest screams about it. Small deeds, small folk, personal connections versus epic battles.

Do you guys even read?

 

[Sykar]

poorly written black paladins.

Why is Seelah poorly written?

She is a Lawful Good Paladin of a warrior deity Iomedae who has the internal motivation of a Neutral Good Cleric of Sarenrae, the goddess of redemption. She is a Tristian in paladin's clothing. And that's how she is written. I don't know whether this conflict will be resolved or not, but her second personal quest screams about it. Small deeds, small folk, personal connections versus epic battles.

Do you guys even read?

They just do not like people that you can insult with the big bad "N" word. Your run of the mill bigot, at best, basically.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Why is Seelah poorly written?

You answered this question here.

She is a Tristian in paladin's clothing. And that's how she is written.

This is why Seelah is poorly written.

 

[The_Mask]

It's in poor taste to quote yourself, but it seems I am forced to.

And let's calm down with the fanboy attitudes. It's not like the game is either trash, or perfect.

So let's get this out of the way real quick with a simple 4th grade level comparison between 2 characters in WOTR:

Seelah:
The first thing that you learn about her is that she likes to help the needy without being asked. (she tries to help Anevia when she's stuck under a rock)
The second thing you learn about her is at the end of the Maze, when you learn that she always struggles to do what's right.
And the third thing you find out about her is that... she likes to drink. (you find this out anywhere from 1h to 3h into the game)

These are 3 traits. Meaning you NEED 3 traits to have a character. (obviously the more you have, the more complex the character is, of course.)

Compare this to Regill, where these things are there in the first 60s:
1. he has incredible resourcefulness
2. he has critical thinking
3. a grasp of basic strategy, and reaction to basic enemy strategy
4. charisma and, at least, basic leadership skills
5. concise and precise speech in accordance to his situation
and after the battle (which can range from another 60s to 10 minutes:
6. gratefulness, but not putting you beyond suspicion of corruption/being on the enemy side, given his
7. seemingly extensive knowledge of the enemy he's facing

Right?


And now let's put ourselves in the mind of Amber Scott, because it's not fucking hard. She can't clear 4th grade education, so...

Seelah is a character because:
1. She likes to help people.
2. She's female.
3. She's black.
4. She's a paladin.

Problem is: a character cannot be defined by their sex, colour of skin or job; because THOSE ARE NOT TRAITS OF CHARACTER. A fucking 10 year-old knows this.

So, what do we have then?

[insert quotes of Codexers here saying Seelah is boring]

The real problem is that this got past the Owlcat writing team. And Mishu-mishu. These people apparently are WRITERS. That went to a school of WRITERS. And there, they were taught how to WRITE.

Why... my brain is smooth as an ice rink and I seem to know better.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Why is Seelah poorly written?

You answered this question here.

She is a Tristian in paladin's clothing. And that's how she is written.

This is why Seelah is poorly written.

When it's addressed as a conflict and a potential reason why she could fall from grace, it's not poorly written at all. Especially given her backstory and way that she became a paladin which is explicitly addressed in various parts of the game both in terms of what you're told about, but also what she does.

 

[mediocrepoet]

It's in poor taste to quote yourself, but it seems I am forced to.

And let's calm down with the fanboy attitudes. It's not like the game is either trash, or perfect.

So let's get this out of the way real quick with a simple 4th grade level comparison between 2 characters in WOTR:

Seelah:
The first thing that you learn about her is that she likes to help the needy without being asked. (she tries to help Anevia when she's stuck under a rock)
The second thing you learn about her is at the end of the Maze, when you learn that she always struggles to do what's right.
And the third thing you find out about her is that... she likes to drink. (you find this out anywhere from 1h to 3h into the game)

These are 3 traits. Meaning you NEED 3 traits to have a character. (obviously the more you have, the more complex the character is, of course.)

Compare this to Regill, where these things are there in the first 60s:
1. he has incredible resourcefulness
2. he has critical thinking
3. a grasp of basic strategy, and reaction to basic enemy strategy
4. charisma and, at least, basic leadership skills
5. concise and precise speech in accordance to his situation
and after the battle (which can range from another 60s to 10 minutes:
6. gratefulness, but not putting you beyond suspicion of corruption/being on the enemy side, given his
7. seemingly extensive knowledge of the enemy he's facing

Right?


And now let's put ourselves in the mind of Amber Scott, because it's not fucking hard. She can't clear 4th grade education, so...

Seelah is a character because:
1. She likes to help people.
2. She's female.
3. She's black.
4. She's a paladin.

Problem is: a character cannot be defined by their sex, colour of skin or job; because THOSE ARE NOT TRAITS OF CHARACTER. A fucking 10 year-old knows this.

So, what do we have then?

[insert quotes of Codexers here saying Seelah is boring]

The real problem is that this got past the Owlcat writing team. And Mishu-mishu. These people apparently are WRITERS. That went to a school of WRITERS. And there, they were taught how to WRITE.

Why... my brain is smooth as an ice rink and I seem to know better.

Yes, you never learn that she's a redeemed former thief who was overcome with guilt and decided to turn over a new leaf and try to atone for her misdeeds and make the world a better place. That would be unthinkable since you've clearly picked out her only three traits.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Why is Seelah poorly written?

You answered this question here.

She is a Tristian in paladin's clothing. And that's how she is written.

This is why Seelah is poorly written.

When it's addressed as a conflict and a potential reason why she could fall from grace, it's not poorly written at all. Especially given her backstory and way that she became a paladin which is explicitly addressed in various parts of the game both in terms of what you're told about, but also what she does.

Based on her writing, she should've become a fallen paladin long before the game starts.

 

[panda]

I just can't stand her voice.

 

[Ghulgothas]

Seelah suffers from the same disease that Amiri did, that being Iconic Syndrome.

 

[The_Mask]

Yes, you never learn that she's a redeemed former thief who was overcome with guilt and decided to turn over a new leaf and try to atone for her misdeeds and make the world a better place. That would be unthinkable since you've clearly picked out her only three traits.

What you're being told and what you're actively seeing about a character is a BIG difference. The Star Wars prequels are all about how we're being told about Obi-Wan and Anakin being best friends; don't see that shit once.

You're being told that Yoshimo might dance on the head of a pin as well, but then his heart is blackened by a geas.

If you can't elaborate a character fast enough for me to get it, when that character is the first thing I see, then you have a problem.




And you can feel free to make me "get it" on that part of the issue.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I just can't stand her voice.

I end up thinking about how much I wish she'd just stfu most of the time she's talking, especially in the early prologue dialogues.

 

[Fedora Master]

I just can't stand her voice.

It's called negro fatigue and it affects everyone to some degree.

 

[Mauman]

Meh....I think she's bland. She's like basic oatmeal when I really want scramble eggs and waffles. To be Lawful or to be Good has been done to death when it comes to Paladins.

She's not really offensive in any way, I'd just rather have any other character in my party (my opinion of a certain cleric went up recently cuz evidently he was the only party member north of evil and east of Law with half a brain when Iomadae the hypocrite came crashing down).

Though when she screams DAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNG (she actually does this) like she's from New York Harlem I admit that fucking pulls me out of the game immersion wise. Too be fair, so does Lann's I'M SO AWESOME.

 

[Orud]

Considering how openly insecure Seelah is about herself, it doesn't make much sense how she starts out as a Paladin. She's an inspiration to no one and runs on liquid courage. She should've started as a plain fighter instead.

Her character arc should've determined if she grows a spine and becomes a Paladin, or stays an insecure drunkard.

 

[Acrux]

What you're being told and what you're actively seeing about a character is a BIG difference. The Star Wars prequels are all about how we're being told about Obi-Wan and Anakin being best friends; don't see that shit once.

You're being told that Yoshimo might dance on the head of a pin as well, but then his heart is blackened by a geas.

If you can't elaborate a character fast enough for me to get it, when that character is the first thing I see, then you have a problem.

And you can feel free to make me "get it" on that part of the issue.

Don't you DARE bring Yoshimo into this!​

 

[Cryomancer]

Am I really going to lose Seelah permanently when I go full lich?

Yes. her dialog

Seelah

I din't did the lich transformation but liked the lich powers.

 

[mediocrepoet]

To be Lawful or to be Good has been done to death when it comes to Paladins.

Edit: Literally you.

 

[Divine Blessing]

issue with Seelah is systemic for all major characters in Pathfinder, Owlcat installed for a (not to subtle) statement:

controversy. (as almost every iconic character is controverse)
Seelah is maybe the second most controverse character (after, but absolutely different to Areelu). as she is the only black major character to focus the (systemic) racism issue: born and raised in the ghetto - the cliché view on every black person, criminals.
but then ascended to Paladin, because she was treated like a human being, she matured into a nice and caring person, questioning herself, her actions and believs, because of her past (although this past wasnt her fault, she was a child).


the controversy is not the discrepancy between her past and her current state of mind, which in terms of writing coherence isnt controverse at all, but logical - as the (social) environment forms the character.
said controversy is exclusively the bigottry of KKK white supremacists, that cant stomach any black person being anything else than criminal.
i wont elaborate the history of slavery, which is a just another capitalistic anecdote, as racism (analyzed by Marx, like sexism too, is a Nebenwertkrise. a systemic installed distraction from the singular basic issue of classism, to mask the bigottry of capitalistic exploitation, which also (negatively) affects white persons).

so her controversy is based on, but not in the character. cuz skin is not a character trait, but a mere biological feature. Seelah has not a controverse, but is a controverse character (due to the audience) - a very direct, almost trivial, but yet obviously necessary statement to the audience.


i dont want to imagine the swastika-storm if Owlcat would have made every major character black - what if Seelah was a Pamela Anderson (at her Baywatch time) clone? like Arues pale skin, everyone would have loved her...

 

[Mauman]

Edit: Literally you.

Nah, not really. But you do you man

Long incomprehensible rant

I don't know what to tell you, but besides her one "stereotypical black DAAANNNNNGGG", I have no problem with her because of her race. And that one problem is less because of the stereotype and more due to I find it doesn't really fit in a medieval fantasy setting (much like Lann's AWESOME).

And before you make some stupid ass assumption, let me help you get your head out of your ass and I'll let you know something....

I'm not white.

 

[purupuru]

Seelah "likes to help people" because when she looks at scoundrels like Curl she sees reflections of her younger self. If those people do not deserve a chance of redemption then maybe she didn't either. And maybe she really didn't, you can tell she is very insecure about this, and you can encourage her self-doubt at every quest stage, which I gladly did.