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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

Technomancer

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The closest thing to a "build" I can think of with Legend is that you can keep rank 2 perception feats from Trickster.
Can you keep a domain exploiting trickster switch that way? Like get lore religion rank 2 and get a domain. Will that allow you to select Impossible Domain in general mythic feats? Going legend will remove domain you got as a trickster but not the one from feat.
 

LannTheStupid

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Pathfinder: Wrath
If you're talking about the Paladin (or Glory domain) spell "Bless weapon" specifically, then Bless weapon is strictly superior because it adds the effect of auto-confirming critical hits in addition to bypassing DR.
That is what I meant. So it adds something.

Now I need to use a potion and see the log if it actually happens.

Thanks for all other answers. My motive is resource conservation. I want to cover the most with the least amount of rests, and resting with unused bottles in the backpack seems wasteful.
 

volklore

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I cleared most of the Alushinyrra without realizing that map changes depend on camera rotation.

:hearnoevil::hearnoevil::hearnoevil:
Let me guess you furiously closed the pop up telling you so because you thought it was the one that tells you 'you missed 2 attacks you might wanna try touch AC' for the 1000000 time?
 

Lagole Gon

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Pathfinder: Wrath
I cleared most of the Alushinyrra without realizing that map changes depend on camera rotation.

:hearnoevil::hearnoevil::hearnoevil:
Let me guess you furiously closed the pop up telling you so because you thought it was the one that tells you 'you missed 2 attacks you might wanna try touch AC' for the 1000000 time?

No, I assumed it was one of the "Wide Sweep Scythe is only +2 weapon. You should change it for a +4 Great Sword of Useless Magic, even though you don't specialize in greatswords at all."
 

perfectslumbers

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If there's one complaint I have about this game it's how much mythic paths inhibit roleplaying. In Kingmaker I felt like I could conceivably roleplay pretty much any class, in wotr you have to roleplay the mythic path you choose since they have so much flavour, and since you spend most of the game as one of the 6 early ones it pretty much limits you to roleplaying within the 6 paths you're given, it's quite annoying to me since one of the appeals of crpgs to me is acting as a character that I create. It's also inherently less interesting to roleplay an archetypal being of pure alignment (which many of the mythic paths are,) rather than roleplaying as a mortal, which can be much more complex and conflicted. If only the legend path were available from the start.
 

volklore

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If there's one complaint I have about this game it's how much mythic paths inhibit roleplaying. In Kingmaker I felt like I could conceivably roleplay pretty much any class, in wotr you have to roleplay the mythic path you choose since they have so much flavour, and since you spend most of the game as one of the 6 early ones it pretty much limits you to roleplaying within the 6 paths you're given, it's quite annoying to me since one of the appeals of crpgs to me is acting as a character that I create. It's also inherently less interesting to roleplay an archetypal being of pure alignment (which many of the mythic paths are,) rather than roleplaying as a mortal, which can be much more complex and conflicted. If only the legend path were available from the start.

The game never forces you to not roleplay a mortal. In fact you always have a choice as to wether or not you let your mythic powers overtake you. It's only during the final act that you have to chose to either give up your mythic powers or accept their influence to achieve transformation, or even keep your mythic powers but fail your final transformation. I think the game has plently of roleplaying options.
 

ga♥

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Well it is true, that choices are more limited, but at least unlike Kingmaker, you can basically [Attack] nearly all NPCs.
 

Fedora Master

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The bigger problem is that the Mythic options are very few and always very specific. As has been pointed out: Lich is always evil all the time. A "Needs must when Deskari drives" kind of approach to stay Neutral isn't possible.
I just checked the PF wiki and apparently there really are no neutral Liches in Pathfinder, so eh.
 

Delterius

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A "Needs must when Deskari drives" kind of approach to stay Neutral isn't possible.
It isn't possible because you aren't pigeonholed into being a Lich. Your character had the option to seek other powers, but becoming a Lich is what interested them. That's not the story of 'needs must'. That's the story of power hungry necromancer guy who rather be a Lich than anything else.

If you want a 'needs must' story you'll want Aeon.
 

Fedora Master

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upload_2021-11-3_14-22-52.png


:roll:

e: And then of course during the fight the hotbar craps out and I can't even use abilities anymore.
 

perfectslumbers

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If there's one complaint I have about this game it's how much mythic paths inhibit roleplaying. In Kingmaker I felt like I could conceivably roleplay pretty much any class, in wotr you have to roleplay the mythic path you choose since they have so much flavour, and since you spend most of the game as one of the 6 early ones it pretty much limits you to roleplaying within the 6 paths you're given, it's quite annoying to me since one of the appeals of crpgs to me is acting as a character that I create. It's also inherently less interesting to roleplay an archetypal being of pure alignment (which many of the mythic paths are,) rather than roleplaying as a mortal, which can be much more complex and conflicted. If only the legend path were available from the start.

The game never forces you to not roleplay a mortal. In fact you always have a choice as to wether or not you let your mythic powers overtake you. It's only during the final act that you have to chose to either give up your mythic powers or accept their influence to achieve transformation, or even keep your mythic powers but fail your final transformation. I think the game has plently of roleplaying options.

The story and events of the game make very little sense if you avoid your power (and even then there are only two points where you can select to reject it, and you get mythic levels from rejecting it anyway.) Also story wise the screen where you pick a mythic path seems to canonically be an actual choice, since companions and npcs remark on you "choosing," your mythic powers. So if you want to roleplay say, a mortal who receives demon powers and tries to reject them you have to deal with explicit narrative dissonance because the npcs in the game understand that you chose to be a demon during the mythic selection screen.
 

Ghulgothas

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If there's one complaint I have about this game it's how much mythic paths inhibit roleplaying. In Kingmaker I felt like I could conceivably roleplay pretty much any class, in wotr you have to roleplay the mythic path you choose since they have so much flavour, and since you spend most of the game as one of the 6 early ones it pretty much limits you to roleplaying within the 6 paths you're given, it's quite annoying to me since one of the appeals of crpgs to me is acting as a character that I create. It's also inherently less interesting to roleplay an archetypal being of pure alignment (which many of the mythic paths are,) rather than roleplaying as a mortal, which can be much more complex and conflicted. If only the legend path were available from the start.
The circumstance of the setting itself and your powers places more onus on roleplaying as your mythic than your class, it's a foregone conclusion that your latent powers would overshadow a mere character class in that regard. Besides, you spend the vast majority of the game as an exceptional mortal with an inclination towards your ultimate incarnation, only fully transforming at what is for most paths the final mile. There's already a more quotidian roleplaying game, and it's called Kingmaker.


The bigger problem is that the Mythic options are very few and always very specific. As has been pointed out: Lich is always evil all the time. A "Needs must when Deskari drives" kind of approach to stay Neutral isn't possible.
I just checked the PF wiki and apparently there really are no neutral Liches in Pathfinder, so eh.
You *can* both play and roleplay a neutral-leaning ends-justify-the-means style of Lich:
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But you'll be expected to make do without all the perks committing to undead evil will get you. Foregoing power... for roleplaying flavor... It's... whaddya call it... ...Choice and Consequence?
 
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perfectslumbers

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You *can* both play and roleplay a neutral-leaning ends-justify-the-means style of Lich:

The circumstance of the setting itself and your powers places more onus on roleplaying as your mythic than your class, it's a foregone conclusion that your latent powers would overshadow a mere character class in that regard. Besides, you spend the vast majority of the game as an exceptional mortal with an inclination towards your ultimate incarnation, only fully transforming at what is for most paths the final mile. There's already a more quotidian roleplaying game, and it's called Kingmaker.

That's precisely my issue! It's boring, and anything interesting that could come from it is mostly passed by (presumably because they had to make 10 different mythic stories.) Simply saying "well that's just the way the game is!" doesn't mean I can't wish for it to be different in some way. Baldur's Gate 2 is a genuinely interesting exploration of what it means to live in a world where morality can literally be in your blood and is a metaphysical property of the universe. I don't expect WOTR to have any thematic depth, that's not Owlcats style, they lean heavily into archetypal but well told and fun stories. But they fail to deliver even that in most of the mythic paths imo, with lich, angel, and aeon being the only ones that accomplish the fantasy they set out to, and legend being interesting simply because of the way it fits into the main story. That's also why I mention it being a shame that legend isn't available from the start, if it were Owlcat could have their cake and eat it too, allowing you to roleplay as one of the hyper-specific mythics OR letting you roleplay a totally flavour neutral mythic path (it would also let you convincingly roleplay true neutral characters which you really can't atm.)
 

perfectslumbers

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roleplay true neutral characters
what would a true neutral character do in a war against demons?
Kill them? Same thing a demon would do in a war against demons, kill them. It's not exactly difficult to find a motivation for closing the worldwound. For example a very classic true neutral archetype is a druid concerned with balance and protecting nature, that would be an excellent reason to wish to close the wound.
 

Delterius

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roleplay true neutral characters
what would a true neutral character do in a war against demons?
Kill them? Same thing a demon would do in a war against demons, kill them. It's not exactly difficult to find a motivation for closing the worldwound. For example a very classic true neutral archetype is a druid concerned with balance and protecting nature, that would be an excellent reason to wish to close the wound.
Is their motivation doing good and saving lives? Is their motivation correcting imbalances and restoring sarkoris?
 

perfectslumbers

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roleplay true neutral characters
what would a true neutral character do in a war against demons?
Kill them? Same thing a demon would do in a war against demons, kill them. It's not exactly difficult to find a motivation for closing the worldwound. For example a very classic true neutral archetype is a druid concerned with balance and protecting nature, that would be an excellent reason to wish to close the wound.
Is their motivation doing good and saving lives? Is their motivation correcting imbalances and restoring sarkoris?
Correcting balance is a possible motivation, desiring recognition or power is a possible motivation. At the start of the game people ask you why you came and "I'm a scholar who wants to study the worldwound," is a possible answer, another motivation that would work perfectly well with true neutral. If your character didn't have a set backstory there could be many more motivations but your character does have a set backstory so it's somewhat limited. Still motivations in wotr are somewhat strange in the first place, your character is essentially thrust into a position of power regardless of what you do and some of the mythic paths have very weird motivations. Like Trickster who's motivation is literally just trolling everyone.

Also a true neutral/flavourless path could be any motivation of any other alignment too, since the point is that it would allow you to roleplay anything while being unrestricted by the choice of the other 6 very flavourful mythic paths.
 

mediocrepoet

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Mind you, there's no reason to overthink Legend because any build that got you to level 18 (roughly when you get Legend) is good enough to get you to the end of the game. Legend just pushes you into a power fantasy mode where you curbstomp everyone with your eleven attacks per round and stack the unstackable.

Why do you think it's fun to theorycraft this anyway? ;)

Normally I prefer really low level stuff (i.e. my favourite part of Kingmaker is everything up to the Stag Lord). But if we're going to play fantasy superheroes, I want to blow everything up in style.
 

Delterius

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Like Trickster who's motivation is literally just trolling everyone.

It can be. I don't think the Mythic Path determines your motivation, rather it retroactively hints at your personality. Once you're locked into being one of the paths the game will act as though it was a foregone conclusion more or less, dropping hints here and there that you were always a bit of a <path>. Oh, you're playing a bunch of crazy jokes on everybody so surely you were always some sort of Fey Lord all along, right? Or maybe you're the son of Cayden Cailean himself. But for the most part this is just what people think of you and that distinction is key. One first ascends into a Mythic Path mostly by reacting to the things they come across in Kenabres. It is all down to the sort of personality your character has and the sort emotions they tend to have. The only Mythic power that cannot be avoided is Angel. You will always acquire that little piece of Heaven. You can always act upon it or disregard any of the other impulses that the Abyss or the other outsider planes throw at you. But your motivation for doing so is still, ultimately, your own. Speaking of which:

Correcting balance is a possible motivation

Yes, and let's explore that. Consider the True Neutral Druid who came to the worldwound and was turned into the protagonist. The sort of person whose motivation would be based around the capacity to erradicate the worldwound and restore Sarkoris. Like every other main character the Druid will receive the same first impressions as everybody else. They'll get the light of heaven. They'll feel the impulses of the abyss. They'll interact with the Aeon soul. And so on. One of which is very likely to make a lasting impression: being transported to Elysium, interacting with it's unbridled wilderness and speaking to the Azata, outsiders who are themselves connected to natural and elemental powers. That druid might make the choice of becoming Azata themselves. Sure, they'll turn Neutral Good along the way, but that's just it: character development. One might even call it

[an] exploration of what it means to live in a world where morality can literally be in your blood and is a metaphysical property of the universe.

Likewise, that same Druid might see in the Aeon's intentions the true power needed to restore Sarkoris: in casting a spell capable of changing the timeline, one averts the worldwound entirely and saves millions. Yet in becoming an Aeon, they will turn Lawful Neutral along the way, as well losing their humanity in the process.

Also a true neutral/flavourless path

Ah, but that was never on the table, was it? The Legend path is not the flavourless path. Far from it. It is integral to the story of the Legend that they spent the last few weeks slowly ascending into an outsider power. Going back to our Druid friend, they have just realized that their soul was part of an experiment. That it was made to resonate with the powers that be. That they are being slowly overwritten into a separate being, neither Areelu's child nor themselves, but a demigod with traces of both and so much more. Their reaction might be enthusiastic. Or they might realize that their choice in becoming an Aeon or an Azata was not a sober one. The rejection of your mythic powers could be the moment where the Druid's humanity shines through, dispelling the Aeon's alien mind. Or maybe they think that while Elysium is the promised land, nature must be reborn by mortal hands and mortal efforts. Their personality restored, they'll now spend the remainder of the game, and the post game, either working back to their original alignment of True Neutral or partially embracing the new perspectives that their stint as an outsider gave them in life.

while being unrestricted by the choice of the other 6 very flavourful mythic paths.

I can sympathize if you didn't jive with any of the early mythic paths and would rather be Legend from the get go. I have a similar issue where I sympathize the most with the Trickster mythic while disliking it's associated mechanics a lot. I've spent a long time trying to accomodate Trickster's powers with the sort of character I tend to play with and the results are not great. But tought luck, right? Story and gameplay aren't divorced from each other, if I want to play a Trickster I'm gonna have to play with it's powers. There never is such a thing as unrestricted roleplaying in a CRPG. Substituting the reality of the game world with something else entirely is never a satisfying option.

That said my advice is to work with what the game already has. A lot of people went into the game really hyped for the Late paths, like Devil. And lot of people left unsatisfied because Owlcat games tend to lose steam on the fourth act onwards and of course there isn't Angel-tier Devil reactivity crammed into the final chapter of the game. However if you look at the full story of the Devil as one that uses their past stint as Azata/Aeon, then it becomes much more reasonable and interesting as an experience. Even if it is also very much fair to say that the Late game paths desperately need more content. Looking at you, Gold Dragon. Likewise, while Legend is the non-aligned path it is not the flavourless path. It is not the unrestricted roleplaying path. It is something *much better*. It is the path where the Hero gets closest to their most idealized outsider power and, for some reason, rejects them in the end. That is true roleplay gold. It is akin to playing a Hagbound Witch in PnP and going through all the story beats required to reject the Hag's curse. It's what the kids call pure kinomatography.
 
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perfectslumbers

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It can be. I don't think the Mythic Path determines your motivation, rather it retroactively hints at your personality. Once you're locked into being one of the paths the game will act as though it was a foregone conclusion more or less, dropping hints here and there that you were always a bit of a <path>. Oh, you're playing a bunch of crazy jokes on everybody so surely you were always some sort of Fey Lord all along, right? Or maybe you're the son of Cayden Cailean himself. But this is just what people think of you and that distinction is key. One first ascends into a Mythic Path mostly by reacting to the things they come across in Kenabres. It is all down to the sort of personality your character has and the sort emotions they tend to have. The only Mythic power that cannot be avoided is Angel. You will always acquire that little piece of Heaven. You can always act upon it or disregard any of the other impulses that the Abyss or the other outsider planes throw at you. But your motivation for doing so is still, ultimately, your own. Speaking of which:

Yes, and let's explore that. Consider the True Neutral Druid who came to the worldwound and was turned into the protagonist. The sort of person whose motivation would be based around the capacity to erradicate the worldwound and restore Sarkoris. Like every other main character the Druid will receive the same first impressions as everybody else. They'll get the light of heaven. They'll feel the impulses of the abyss. They'll interact with the Aeon soul. And so on. One of which is very likely to make a lasting impression: being transported to Elysium, interacting with it's unbridled wilderness and speaking to the Azata, outsiders who are themselves connected to natural and elemental powers. That druid might make the choice of becoming Azata themselves. Sure, they'll turn Neutral Good along the way, but that's just it: character development. One might even call it



Likewise, that same Druid might see in the Aeon's intentions the true power needed to restore Sarkoris: in casting a spell capable of changing the timeline, one averts the worldwound entirely and saves millions. Yet in becoming an Aeon, they will turn Lawful Neutral along the way, as well losing their humanity in the process.



Ah, but that was never on the table, was it? The Legend path is not the flavourless path. Far from it. It is integral to the story of the Legend that they spent the last few weeks slowly ascending into an outsider power. Going back to our Druid friend, they have just realized that their soul was part of an experiment. That it was made to resonate with the powers that be. That they are being slowly overwritten into a separate being, neither Areelu's child nor themselves, but a demigod with traces of both and so much more. Their reaction might be enthusiastic. Or they might realize that their choice in becoming an Aeon or an Azata was not a sober one. The rejection of your mythic powers could be the moment where the Druid's humanity shines through, dispelling the Aeon's alien mind. Or maybe they think that while Elysium is the promised land, nature must be reborn by mortal hands and mortal efforts. Their personality restored, they'll now spend the remainder of the game, and the post game, either working back to their original alignment of True Neutral or partially embracing the new perspectives that their stint as an outsider gave them in life.



I can sympathize if you didn't jive with any of the early mythic paths and would rather be Legend from the get go. I have a similar issue where I sympathize the most with the Trickster mythic while disliking it's associated mechanics a lot. I've spent a long time trying to accomodate Trickster's powers with the sort of character I tend to play with and the results are not great. But tought luck, right? Story and gameplay aren't divorced from each other, if I want to play a Trickster I'm gonna have to play with it's powers. There never is such a thing as unrestricted roleplaying in a CRPG. Substituting the reality of the game world with something else entirely is never a satisfying option.

That said my advice is to work with what the game already has. A lot of people went into the game really hyped for the Late paths, like Devil. And lot of people left unsatisfied because Owlcat games tend to lose steam on the fourth act onwards and of course there isn't Angel-tier Devil reactivity crammed into the final chapter of the game. However if you look at the full story of the Devil as one that uses their past stint as Azata/Aeon, then it becomes much more reasonable and interesting as an experience. Even if it is also very much fair to say that the Late game paths desperately need more content. Looking at you, Gold Dragon. Likewise, while Legend is the non-aligned path it is not the flavourless path. It is not the unrestricted roleplaying path. It is something *much better*. It is the path where the Hero gets closest to their most idealized outsider power and, for some reason, rejects them in the end. That is true roleplay gold. It is akin to playing a Hagbound Witch in PnP and going through all the story beats required to reject the Hag's curse. It's what the kids call pure kinomatography.

Legend isn't literally flavourless yes, but it is much much more open in the amount of roleplaying angles than any other path, despite having a clear story. I would much prefer if they added a 7th early path in the ee or something that would open up more opportunities than retrofitting legend onto that, since legend does have a specific story (and unlocking it early would require a bit of reworking.) But they said implementing mythic paths takes a ton of work so to me act 3 legend represents a compromise.

I'm perfectly willing to work with what the game already has, it's literally my favourite crpg of all time and I've played it more than any other crpg. I just see a way that it could be improved without taking anything away from the game in any way. I'm not trying to say the game is bad or that you can't roleplay, but it's because I love the game so much that I want to see it improved even more.

That said most of the alignment shoehorning happens early in act 5 so i see what you mean with character development.
Demon into legend in particular feels the most appropriate for a more open ended character since you can construe being demon as the influence of Areelu's experiments. I wish that npcs didn't go out of their way to talk about what you /chose/ to do with your power, since that would make roleplaying this so much more believable. (And it feels sort of meta, as if they could see your character sitting there in the mythic level up screen lol.)
 

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