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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

Delterius

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roleplay true neutral characters
what would a true neutral character do in a war against demons?
Kill them? Same thing a demon would do in a war against demons, kill them. It's not exactly difficult to find a motivation for closing the worldwound. For example a very classic true neutral archetype is a druid concerned with balance and protecting nature, that would be an excellent reason to wish to close the wound.
Is their motivation doing good and saving lives? Is their motivation correcting imbalances and restoring sarkoris?
 

perfectslumbers

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roleplay true neutral characters
what would a true neutral character do in a war against demons?
Kill them? Same thing a demon would do in a war against demons, kill them. It's not exactly difficult to find a motivation for closing the worldwound. For example a very classic true neutral archetype is a druid concerned with balance and protecting nature, that would be an excellent reason to wish to close the wound.
Is their motivation doing good and saving lives? Is their motivation correcting imbalances and restoring sarkoris?
Correcting balance is a possible motivation, desiring recognition or power is a possible motivation. At the start of the game people ask you why you came and "I'm a scholar who wants to study the worldwound," is a possible answer, another motivation that would work perfectly well with true neutral. If your character didn't have a set backstory there could be many more motivations but your character does have a set backstory so it's somewhat limited. Still motivations in wotr are somewhat strange in the first place, your character is essentially thrust into a position of power regardless of what you do and some of the mythic paths have very weird motivations. Like Trickster who's motivation is literally just trolling everyone.

Also a true neutral/flavourless path could be any motivation of any other alignment too, since the point is that it would allow you to roleplay anything while being unrestricted by the choice of the other 6 very flavourful mythic paths.
 

mediocrepoet

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Mind you, there's no reason to overthink Legend because any build that got you to level 18 (roughly when you get Legend) is good enough to get you to the end of the game. Legend just pushes you into a power fantasy mode where you curbstomp everyone with your eleven attacks per round and stack the unstackable.

Why do you think it's fun to theorycraft this anyway? ;)

Normally I prefer really low level stuff (i.e. my favourite part of Kingmaker is everything up to the Stag Lord). But if we're going to play fantasy superheroes, I want to blow everything up in style.
 

Delterius

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Like Trickster who's motivation is literally just trolling everyone.

It can be. I don't think the Mythic Path determines your motivation, rather it retroactively hints at your personality. Once you're locked into being one of the paths the game will act as though it was a foregone conclusion more or less, dropping hints here and there that you were always a bit of a <path>. Oh, you're playing a bunch of crazy jokes on everybody so surely you were always some sort of Fey Lord all along, right? Or maybe you're the son of Cayden Cailean himself. But for the most part this is just what people think of you and that distinction is key. One first ascends into a Mythic Path mostly by reacting to the things they come across in Kenabres. It is all down to the sort of personality your character has and the sort emotions they tend to have. The only Mythic power that cannot be avoided is Angel. You will always acquire that little piece of Heaven. You can always act upon it or disregard any of the other impulses that the Abyss or the other outsider planes throw at you. But your motivation for doing so is still, ultimately, your own. Speaking of which:

Correcting balance is a possible motivation

Yes, and let's explore that. Consider the True Neutral Druid who came to the worldwound and was turned into the protagonist. The sort of person whose motivation would be based around the capacity to erradicate the worldwound and restore Sarkoris. Like every other main character the Druid will receive the same first impressions as everybody else. They'll get the light of heaven. They'll feel the impulses of the abyss. They'll interact with the Aeon soul. And so on. One of which is very likely to make a lasting impression: being transported to Elysium, interacting with it's unbridled wilderness and speaking to the Azata, outsiders who are themselves connected to natural and elemental powers. That druid might make the choice of becoming Azata themselves. Sure, they'll turn Neutral Good along the way, but that's just it: character development. One might even call it

[an] exploration of what it means to live in a world where morality can literally be in your blood and is a metaphysical property of the universe.

Likewise, that same Druid might see in the Aeon's intentions the true power needed to restore Sarkoris: in casting a spell capable of changing the timeline, one averts the worldwound entirely and saves millions. Yet in becoming an Aeon, they will turn Lawful Neutral along the way, as well losing their humanity in the process.

Also a true neutral/flavourless path

Ah, but that was never on the table, was it? The Legend path is not the flavourless path. Far from it. It is integral to the story of the Legend that they spent the last few weeks slowly ascending into an outsider power. Going back to our Druid friend, they have just realized that their soul was part of an experiment. That it was made to resonate with the powers that be. That they are being slowly overwritten into a separate being, neither Areelu's child nor themselves, but a demigod with traces of both and so much more. Their reaction might be enthusiastic. Or they might realize that their choice in becoming an Aeon or an Azata was not a sober one. The rejection of your mythic powers could be the moment where the Druid's humanity shines through, dispelling the Aeon's alien mind. Or maybe they think that while Elysium is the promised land, nature must be reborn by mortal hands and mortal efforts. Their personality restored, they'll now spend the remainder of the game, and the post game, either working back to their original alignment of True Neutral or partially embracing the new perspectives that their stint as an outsider gave them in life.

while being unrestricted by the choice of the other 6 very flavourful mythic paths.

I can sympathize if you didn't jive with any of the early mythic paths and would rather be Legend from the get go. I have a similar issue where I sympathize the most with the Trickster mythic while disliking it's associated mechanics a lot. I've spent a long time trying to accomodate Trickster's powers with the sort of character I tend to play with and the results are not great. But tought luck, right? Story and gameplay aren't divorced from each other, if I want to play a Trickster I'm gonna have to play with it's powers. There never is such a thing as unrestricted roleplaying in a CRPG. Substituting the reality of the game world with something else entirely is never a satisfying option.

That said my advice is to work with what the game already has. A lot of people went into the game really hyped for the Late paths, like Devil. And lot of people left unsatisfied because Owlcat games tend to lose steam on the fourth act onwards and of course there isn't Angel-tier Devil reactivity crammed into the final chapter of the game. However if you look at the full story of the Devil as one that uses their past stint as Azata/Aeon, then it becomes much more reasonable and interesting as an experience. Even if it is also very much fair to say that the Late game paths desperately need more content. Looking at you, Gold Dragon. Likewise, while Legend is the non-aligned path it is not the flavourless path. It is not the unrestricted roleplaying path. It is something *much better*. It is the path where the Hero gets closest to their most idealized outsider power and, for some reason, rejects them in the end. That is true roleplay gold. It is akin to playing a Hagbound Witch in PnP and going through all the story beats required to reject the Hag's curse. It's what the kids call pure kinomatography.
 
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perfectslumbers

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It can be. I don't think the Mythic Path determines your motivation, rather it retroactively hints at your personality. Once you're locked into being one of the paths the game will act as though it was a foregone conclusion more or less, dropping hints here and there that you were always a bit of a <path>. Oh, you're playing a bunch of crazy jokes on everybody so surely you were always some sort of Fey Lord all along, right? Or maybe you're the son of Cayden Cailean himself. But this is just what people think of you and that distinction is key. One first ascends into a Mythic Path mostly by reacting to the things they come across in Kenabres. It is all down to the sort of personality your character has and the sort emotions they tend to have. The only Mythic power that cannot be avoided is Angel. You will always acquire that little piece of Heaven. You can always act upon it or disregard any of the other impulses that the Abyss or the other outsider planes throw at you. But your motivation for doing so is still, ultimately, your own. Speaking of which:

Yes, and let's explore that. Consider the True Neutral Druid who came to the worldwound and was turned into the protagonist. The sort of person whose motivation would be based around the capacity to erradicate the worldwound and restore Sarkoris. Like every other main character the Druid will receive the same first impressions as everybody else. They'll get the light of heaven. They'll feel the impulses of the abyss. They'll interact with the Aeon soul. And so on. One of which is very likely to make a lasting impression: being transported to Elysium, interacting with it's unbridled wilderness and speaking to the Azata, outsiders who are themselves connected to natural and elemental powers. That druid might make the choice of becoming Azata themselves. Sure, they'll turn Neutral Good along the way, but that's just it: character development. One might even call it



Likewise, that same Druid might see in the Aeon's intentions the true power needed to restore Sarkoris: in casting a spell capable of changing the timeline, one averts the worldwound entirely and saves millions. Yet in becoming an Aeon, they will turn Lawful Neutral along the way, as well losing their humanity in the process.



Ah, but that was never on the table, was it? The Legend path is not the flavourless path. Far from it. It is integral to the story of the Legend that they spent the last few weeks slowly ascending into an outsider power. Going back to our Druid friend, they have just realized that their soul was part of an experiment. That it was made to resonate with the powers that be. That they are being slowly overwritten into a separate being, neither Areelu's child nor themselves, but a demigod with traces of both and so much more. Their reaction might be enthusiastic. Or they might realize that their choice in becoming an Aeon or an Azata was not a sober one. The rejection of your mythic powers could be the moment where the Druid's humanity shines through, dispelling the Aeon's alien mind. Or maybe they think that while Elysium is the promised land, nature must be reborn by mortal hands and mortal efforts. Their personality restored, they'll now spend the remainder of the game, and the post game, either working back to their original alignment of True Neutral or partially embracing the new perspectives that their stint as an outsider gave them in life.



I can sympathize if you didn't jive with any of the early mythic paths and would rather be Legend from the get go. I have a similar issue where I sympathize the most with the Trickster mythic while disliking it's associated mechanics a lot. I've spent a long time trying to accomodate Trickster's powers with the sort of character I tend to play with and the results are not great. But tought luck, right? Story and gameplay aren't divorced from each other, if I want to play a Trickster I'm gonna have to play with it's powers. There never is such a thing as unrestricted roleplaying in a CRPG. Substituting the reality of the game world with something else entirely is never a satisfying option.

That said my advice is to work with what the game already has. A lot of people went into the game really hyped for the Late paths, like Devil. And lot of people left unsatisfied because Owlcat games tend to lose steam on the fourth act onwards and of course there isn't Angel-tier Devil reactivity crammed into the final chapter of the game. However if you look at the full story of the Devil as one that uses their past stint as Azata/Aeon, then it becomes much more reasonable and interesting as an experience. Even if it is also very much fair to say that the Late game paths desperately need more content. Looking at you, Gold Dragon. Likewise, while Legend is the non-aligned path it is not the flavourless path. It is not the unrestricted roleplaying path. It is something *much better*. It is the path where the Hero gets closest to their most idealized outsider power and, for some reason, rejects them in the end. That is true roleplay gold. It is akin to playing a Hagbound Witch in PnP and going through all the story beats required to reject the Hag's curse. It's what the kids call pure kinomatography.

Legend isn't literally flavourless yes, but it is much much more open in the amount of roleplaying angles than any other path, despite having a clear story. I would much prefer if they added a 7th early path in the ee or something that would open up more opportunities than retrofitting legend onto that, since legend does have a specific story (and unlocking it early would require a bit of reworking.) But they said implementing mythic paths takes a ton of work so to me act 3 legend represents a compromise.

I'm perfectly willing to work with what the game already has, it's literally my favourite crpg of all time and I've played it more than any other crpg. I just see a way that it could be improved without taking anything away from the game in any way. I'm not trying to say the game is bad or that you can't roleplay, but it's because I love the game so much that I want to see it improved even more.

That said most of the alignment shoehorning happens early in act 5 so i see what you mean with character development.
Demon into legend in particular feels the most appropriate for a more open ended character since you can construe being demon as the influence of Areelu's experiments. I wish that npcs didn't go out of their way to talk about what you /chose/ to do with your power, since that would make roleplaying this so much more believable. (And it feels sort of meta, as if they could see your character sitting there in the mythic level up screen lol.)
 

LannTheStupid

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Pathfinder: Wrath
if you want to roleplay say, a mortal who receives demon powers and tries to reject them
You can. You will role play as a corpse, most likely. Mythic powers are given as the part of quest progression, gathering EXP, level ups and so on. If you "reject" - meaning "fail" such quests you, presumably, be underleveled and die. Or hit a hard stop, so you will have to lower the difficulty (which can be considered as "Give me another Golarion") or drop the game.

As I wrote before: there is no way to open the Azata path without at least 1 pure Good choice. It is incredibly annoying for me, as I hate such choices, but I want to see maximum content as well. For role play I should have rejected it - and lose one Mythic path right from the start.

If this trend continues - because why not - then a player who does not want to be any Mythic will end up being a no one. And not in the Braavosi sense "no one".

Also, I do not see motivation for a true neutral to even go to the Worldwound. I see the motivation to perfect himself and be as good "you" as you can be without any external confrontation. Because why? Except for druids, for sure, but druids have obligations; a true neutral character does not have to have anything.
 

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Well, the training is finally starting to pay off
zvRdoF4.jpg
 

Cryomancer

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Hellfire Ray + Arcane trickster sneak + trickster mythic path sneak + maximized + empowered + critical hit with all feats and mythical feats to upgrade the critical, can dish how much damage per ray?
 

mediocrepoet

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Hellfire Ray + Arcane trickster sneak + trickster mythic path sneak + maximized + empowered + critical hit with all feats and mythical feats to upgrade the critical, can dish how much damage per ray?

After some higher tier math I don't have the space to explain here, I can confidently say that the answer is at least 3.
 

Cryomancer

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LOL. I will do the math.

Per ray. 15d6 maximized(90) + empowered(*1,5) = 135.
+5d6 sneak damage from Arcane Trickster
+5d6 from trickster sneak attack
= 135+10d6 = 145~195(min~max) damage per ray.

IDK how high you can get the critical but lets assume 3x. IDK if the sneak attack will be affected or not by the critical hit or if it applies to all rays. Even if the critical doesn't apply to the sneak, 405(135*3) +10d6 damage per ray still amazing. I never liked or did a sneak build. With favored metamagic empower/maximize mythic feats, and a greater rod of quicken spell, you can fire 6 rays per round. Dishing 135+10d6 with a 19~20 x3 critical range(improved critical). A Azata in other hands, can fire 12 hellfire rays per round if there are 2 enemies(quicken rod) to hit but no sneak attack. In general, trickster seems better vs single target and Azata vs multiple targets.

Other thing that seems a bit OP is Phantasmal Mage weird Using favorable magic + metamagic and metamagic feats to reduce the metamagic costs, an Azata phantasmal mage can force the enemy to do like 4 SAVES OR DIE. 4 fortitude and 4 will. That is insanely amazing in a AoE OHK spell.

I decided. I will make a illusionist next. Not a Phantasmal mage cuz I hate manlets and don't care if is more optimal.

---------------

Guys, a honest question. can I put multiple persistent spells in a single spell? Like putting 3+ persistent spells in phantasmal killer with the favored metamagic to reduce the cost?
 
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Delterius

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+5d6 sneak damage from Arcane Trickster
+5d6 from trickster sneak attack
What about Sense Vitals? Is there even a sneak dice cap in this game? Edit: just tested it, there is not.
IDK if the sneak attack will be affected or not by the critical hit
Not without mods, actually.
or if it applies to all rays.
It has in Owlcat's homebrew since Kingmaker.
Guys, a honest question. can I put multiple persistent spells in a single spell?
Well, per the rules you can't apply the same metamagic effect more than once, ever.
 
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The_Mask

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
The only Mythic power that cannot be avoided is Angel.
Which is kind of a cool set-up that harkens back to old English folk tales, such like the one with that guy called Arthur, and that other guy called Merlin. Very obscure tale.

Setting that up as a journey of self-discovery, and so on...

Yes. Very easy to miss. And misinterpret.

:lol:

* * *

"I wish that npcs didn't go out of their way to talk about what you /chose/ to do with your power, since that would make roleplaying this so much more believable."

You must be the first person that I've seen advocating for less NPC reactivity. What... ?
If anything that's one of the best aspects of the game. How people/ groups of people react to your choice(s).
 

Sunri

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Damn trickster path is so fucking boring i though that this shit was supposed to be funny i wanted to cheer up after edgy demon run, but this is just pure crap worst mythic path from fluff perspective.
 

Cryomancer

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Azata :
  • Superpowers - Zippy magic and Favorable magic
  • Dragon companion which can dish 26d10 breath attack damage
  • Ability to ride the dragon in late game
  • Semi immortality
  • Cool water spells
  • Opportunity to kill a archdevil
  • (...)
Trickster :
  • Sneak attack
  • A beard
I can see the appeal of all mythic paths, except demon and trickster.
 

Sunri

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Azata :
  • Superpowers - Zippy magic and Favorable magic
  • Dragon companion which can dish 26d10 breath attack damage
  • Ability to ride the dragon in late game
  • Semi immortality
  • Cool water spells
  • Opportunity to kill a archdevil
  • (...)
Trickster :
  • Sneak attack
  • A beard
I can see the appeal of all mythic paths, except demon and trickster.
I mean demon was fun there are some epic moments in the story and some demon aspects are good if you don't mind resting a lot demonic rage is good 2 but the trickster there is nothing just fucking nothing i can praise about this shit i already deleted my character and started aeon
 

Delterius

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Trickster:
3k+ damage vital strikes, everyone has 50% chance to crit with x4 or x5 damage with every strike, respec companions into winged abominations with the feat requirement waiver, roll all 20s spell, level 40 piglet summon spell, level 20 wizard with every pre-buff as a summon spell, infinite haste from wands, 30+ CL on scrolls if scroll savant, metamagic'd level 9 spells, cantripified level 1 spells, 15d6 sneak dice as an AT, your athletics skill as your personal saves, your mobility skill as your personal AC, inability to roll critical 1s, free level 20 wizard spellbook or two level 20 wizard spellbooks if you feel so inclined.

*disclaimer: you can't do all of this at the same time. not even close lmao.

Fluff-wise becoming Fey is probably the best form of longevity. It's true immortality as long as you're tangentially connected to the first world. You simply cannot be destroyed.
 
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perfectslumbers

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LOL. I will do the math.

Per ray. 15d6 maximized(90) + empowered(*1,5) = 135.
+5d6 sneak damage from Arcane Trickster
+5d6 from trickster sneak attack
= 135+10d6 = 145~195(min~max) damage per ray.

IDK how high you can get the critical but lets assume 3x. IDK if the sneak attack will be affected or not by the critical hit or if it applies to all rays. Even if the critical doesn't apply to the sneak, 405(135*3) +10d6 damage per ray still amazing. I never liked or did a sneak build. With favored metamagic empower/maximize mythic feats, and a greater rod of quicken spell, you can fire 6 rays per round. Dishing 135+10d6 with a 19~20 x3 critical range(improved critical). A Azata in other hands, can fire 12 hellfire rays per round if there are 2 enemies(quicken rod) to hit but no sneak attack. In general, trickster seems better vs single target and Azata vs multiple targets.

Other thing that seems a bit OP is Phantasmal Mage weird Using favorable magic + metamagic and metamagic feats to reduce the metamagic costs, an Azata phantasmal mage can force the enemy to do like 4 SAVES OR DIE. 4 fortitude and 4 will. That is insanely amazing in a AoE OHK spell.

I decided. I will make a illusionist next. Not a Phantasmal mage cuz I hate manlets and don't care if is more optimal.

---------------

Guys, a honest question. can I put multiple persistent spells in a single spell? Like putting 3+ persistent spells in phantasmal killer with the favored metamagic to reduce the cost?

Last time i checked hellfire ray was bugged and empower made it do 2.25x damage. Should still be there unless it was ninja fixed and not mentioned in patch notes.
 

Technomancer

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Is there even a sneak dice cap in this game? Edit: just tested it, there is not.
It's bugged. It is stated in-game that it can only be raised as high as half of your level, so 20 dice max for legend but the game ignores it. You can do like rogue/viv 20/19 and sneak an extra die from assassin dip. Add to that feats and weapon buffs.
 

Delterius

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Is there even a sneak dice cap in this game? Edit: just tested it, there is not.
It's bugged. It is stated in-game that it can only be raised as high as half of your level, so 20 dice max for legend but the game ignores it. You can do like rogue/viv 20/19 and sneak an extra die from assassin dip. Add to that feats and weapon buffs.
I might be wrong but if they fix sneak attack caps and then make it so multi rays only trigger sneak attack once then it will pretty much kill ATs since Bolster Metamagic can easily compete in spells with lots of dice. The only exception would be ray of halberds but then again why would you care?
 

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