Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[mediocrepoet]

I was also thinking about something...

Paizo was very adamant about explaining that necromancy in PF is ALWAYS evil, there was a discussion for years on this topic. In the end they've actually made an official errata about animate dead and similar spells, that casting one or two of these will make your character evil beyond all salvation.

Then on the other hand, you have a fucking redeemed succubus. A demon from the Abyss, and we all know that demons are ALWAYS EVIL BEYOND SALVATION, yet there's this one hot bitch who's totaly not evil, despite her very existence being based off souls of evil of mortals.

Then you have fucking Seelah. She is a paladin, some kind of lawful paragon whose powers are based solely on upholding the law and shit. And she's gay. At least if here deity had sexual freedoms or something in her portfolio I would buy it. If she's not breaking some paladin code then necromancy is most certainly not always evil.

So the only point of this overly long for what it is post is that gay = evil and/or chaotic?
You could save some time on your post by just submitting something like: "I'm a 5th century puritan asshole." It'd get your point across. Now shouldn't you be in church or something?

 

[kinzadza]

I was also thinking about something...

Paizo was very adamant about explaining that necromancy in PF is ALWAYS evil, there was a discussion for years on this topic. In the end they've actually made an official errata about animate dead and similar spells, that casting one or two of these will make your character evil beyond all salvation.

Then on the other hand, you have a fucking redeemed succubus. A demon from the Abyss, and we all know that demons are ALWAYS EVIL BEYOND SALVATION, yet there's this one hot bitch who's totaly not evil, despite her very existence being based off souls of evil of mortals.

Then you have fucking Seelah. She is a paladin, some kind of lawful paragon whose powers are based solely on upholding the law and shit. And she's gay. At least if here deity had sexual freedoms or something in her portfolio I would buy it. If she's not breaking some paladin code then necromancy is most certainly not always evil.

So the only point of this overly long for what it is post is that gay = evil and/or chaotic?
You could save some time on your post by just submitting something like: "I'm a 5th century puritan asshole." It'd get your point across. Now shouldn't you be in church or something?

I'm arguing that in a canon that has absolute laws in place, the very creators of that same canon blatantly insert characters who are the exact opposite of these absolute laws, and call it a day. They're shitting in their own mouth.

 

[Efe]

hes trying to point out inconsistencies in paizo logic.
he is right that seelah doesnt act like a paladin.
necromancy bit I dont know about enough to say anything
succubus part I disagree cos if angels can fall, surely demons can rise

 

[Cryomancer]

gay = evil and/or chaotic?

In 99% of societies, yes. Homosexuality was not accepted.

necromancy in PF is ALWAYS evil, t

Necromancy in PF is similar to D&D ie - divided in white/gray/black. Expelling evil spirits, heavling and so on are examples of "white necromancy". Finger of Death is "gray" and reanimating the dead is always "black". IMO necromancers needs to be either, chaotic OR evil.

"In one of the foundations for CoDzilla, wizards and sorcerers have been traditionally restricted to gray and black necromancy, whilst clerics have had access to white, gray and black, plus innate class features allowing them to manipulate/control undead." source > https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Necromancer

Animate dead brings evil into the world and corrupts the caster soul with evil energies. But "white" necromancy is not necessary evil. Casting death to the undead would't corrupt your PC.

 

[Jaedar]

She is a paladin, some kind of lawful paragon whose powers are based solely on upholding the law and shit. And she's gay.

I don't really get why being gay means you can't be a paladin. It is the case that every(?) religion in reality has rules against it, but I don't see why fictional religions have to be the same way.

Paizo was very adamant about explaining that necromancy in PF is ALWAYS evil, there was a discussion for years on this topic. In the end they've actually made an official errata about animate dead and similar spells, that casting one or two of these will make your character evil beyond all salvation.

I agree that paizo are being very racist towards necromancers.

The problem with Seelah is that she doesn't act like a paladin, she acts like a neutral good fighter. Which might have been fine, except it's a very boring ng fighter.

 

[kinzadza]

gay = evil and/or chaotic?

In 99% of societies, yes. Homosexuality was not accepted.

necromancy in PF is ALWAYS evil, t

Necromancy in PF is similar to D&D ie - divided in white/gray/black. Expelling evil spirits, heavling and so on are examples of "white necromancy". Finger of Death is "gray" and reanimating the dead is always "black". IMO necromancers needs to be either, chaotic OR evil.

"In one of the foundations for CoDzilla, wizards and sorcerers have been traditionally restricted to gray and black necromancy, whilst clerics have had access to white, gray and black, plus innate class features allowing them to manipulate/control undead." source > https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Necromancer

Animate dead brings evil into the world and corrupts the caster soul with evil energies. But "white" necromancy is not necessary evil. Casting death to the undead would't corrupt your PC.

Okay then, imagine someone animating skeletons to be able to save children from a burning building, and then releasing them back to the boneyard? nope, evil as fuck.

 

[kinzadza]

She is a paladin, some kind of lawful paragon whose powers are based solely on upholding the law and shit. And she's gay.

I don't really get why being gay means you can't be a paladin. It is the case that every(?) religion in reality has rules against it, but I don't see why fictional religions have to be the same way.

Paizo was very adamant about explaining that necromancy in PF is ALWAYS evil, there was a discussion for years on this topic. In the end they've actually made an official errata about animate dead and similar spells, that casting one or two of these will make your character evil beyond all salvation.

I agree that paizo are being very racist towards necromancers.

The problem with Seelah is that she doesn't act like a paladin, she acts like a neutral good fighter. Which might have been fine, except it's a very boring ng fighter.

The church of Iomedae does not have gay sex in their portfolio. She herself is a paragon of honor, virtue and blabla, so textbook puritan God hero type. A paladin practicing homosexuality would at best be dubious. It just doesn't hold up.

 

[Cryomancer]

gay = evil and/or chaotic?

In 99% of societies, yes. Homosexuality was not accepted.

necromancy in PF is ALWAYS evil, t

Necromancy in PF is similar to D&D ie - divided in white/gray/black. Expelling evil spirits, heavling and so on are examples of "white necromancy". Finger of Death is "gray" and reanimating the dead is always "black". IMO necromancers needs to be either, chaotic OR evil.

"In one of the foundations for CoDzilla, wizards and sorcerers have been traditionally restricted to gray and black necromancy, whilst clerics have had access to white, gray and black, plus innate class features allowing them to manipulate/control undead." source > https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Necromancer

Animate dead brings evil into the world and corrupts the caster soul with evil energies. But "white" necromancy is not necessary evil. Casting death to the undead would't corrupt your PC.

Okay then, imagine someone animating skeletons to be able to save children from a burning building, and then releasing them back to the boneyard? nope, evil as fuck.

Well, in that case, the sorcerer will be partially corrupted. And if the sorcerer can cast tier 4 spells, he can cast summon monster

I agree that paizo are being very racist towards necromancers.

The problem is that they ruined it in PF2e.

1e with finger of death just dishing massive damage instead of a OHK was already a huge nerf IMO.

 

[NJClaw]

The problem with Seelah is that she doesn't act like a paladin, she acts like a neutral good fighter. Which might have been fine, except it's a very boring ng fighter.

That's why you play a Paladin MC and level up Seelah as a Bard, roleplaying the whole thing as her finally learning how a true paladin should act and deciding to write songs and poems about your legendary adventures.

 

[Jaedar]

The church of Iomedae does not have gay sex in their portfolio. She herself is a paragon of honor, virtue and blabla, so textbook puritan God hero type. A paladin practicing homosexuality would at best be dubious. It just doesn't hold up.

They prob also don't have friendship, eating and having fun in their portfolio. Doesn't mean that doing any of these things makes you unworthy of being a paladin. Enjoying something 'irresponsibly' would be dubious for a paladin, but you don't see Seelah going to any gay orgies or let her sexual preferences get in the way of her (mostly nonexistant in the game) paladinic duties.

Pretty sure none of the gods has sex in their portfolio since this would not be kid friendly. This does not mean paladins all have to be celibate.

 

[Ulfhednar]

Make your next MC an angelic altar girl camping with Seelah far from civilization in the Worldwound for a few years and let us know what happens.

 

[kinzadza]

The church of Iomedae does not have gay sex in their portfolio. She herself is a paragon of honor, virtue and blabla, so textbook puritan God hero type. A paladin practicing homosexuality would at best be dubious. It just doesn't hold up.

They prob also don't have friendship, eating and having fun in their portfolio. Doesn't mean that doing any of these things makes you unworthy of being a paladin. Enjoying something 'irresponsibly' would be dubious for a paladin, but you don't see Seelah going to any gay orgies or let her sexual preferences get in the way of her (mostly nonexistant in the game) paladinic duties.

Pretty sure none of the gods has sex in their portfolio since this would not be kid friendly. This does not mean paladins all have to be celibate.

Arshea
Spirit of Abandon
Source Inner Sea Gods pg. 322
Pathfinder Wiki Arshea
Details
Alignment NG
Pantheon Empyreal Lords
Areas of Concern Freedom, physical beauty, sexuality
Domains Charm, Good, Liberation, Strength
Subdomains Agathion, Freedom, Love, Lust, Self-Realization (Liberation)*, Self-Realization (Strength)*
* Requires the Acolyte of Apocrypha trait.
Favored Weapon Flail
Symbol Figure with colorful sashes
Sacred Animal(s) Swan
Sacred Color(s) Purple, white
Obedience
Achieve sexual release by yourself or with one or more partners. Praise the most beautiful aspects of yourself and any partners aloud, and offer a prayer to Arshea while still naked. Gain a +4 sacred bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks when interacting with an intelligent creature who could be sexually attracted to you.

Lymnieris
The Auroral Tower
Source Inner Sea Gods pg. 322
Pathfinder Wiki Lymnieris
Details
Alignment LG
Pantheon Empyreal Lords
Areas of Concern Prostitution, rites of passage, virginity
Domains Community, Good, Law, Protection
Subdomains Archon (Good), Archon (Law), Friendship, Lust, Purity
* Requires the Acolyte of Apocrypha trait.
Favored Weapon Longsword
Symbol White-hooded profile
Sacred Animal(s) Rabbit
Sacred Color(s) Red, white
Obedience
Lie on a hard, flat surface wearing nothing but a cowl. Concentrate on the feeling of the surface and the air while achieving sexual release without touching yourself. Healing spells you cast heal 1 more point of damage per die.

Enuff kid friendly?

 

[Technomancer]

Then on the other hand, you have a fucking redeemed succubus. A demon from the Abyss, and we all know that demons are ALWAYS EVIL BEYOND SALVATION, yet there's this one hot bitch who's totaly not evil, despite her very existence being based off souls of evil of mortals.

Tbf the goddess scrambled her brains a bit. Doesn't count with direct divine intervention.

 

[purupuru]

Companions are special snowflakes. "I am a paladin and I'm going to pick every chaotic option available because paizo/owlcat says I can and I don't have an alignment shift system. Did you just turn NG for not killing enough Desnites? LOL" "I was a demon evil and cruel to the core with no redeeming quality but goddess personally turned me good. Oh what a terrible punishment now I get to marry the all powerful crusade commander or even ascend to demi-godhood, I can see why Desna didn't just smote me into pieces because this is just eternal suffering except it's not and I'm having a blast." "I am a disgusting 5 CHA bug-women and I demand you to love me and cut all sorts of corners just for me or I will betray you to some trashmob-tier demon. What do you mean I shouldn't betray the obviously stronger side when my personal arc is all about power seeking? I just can't respect you at all if you don't do those 3 specific things. And no, killing Baphomet does not count as one because he's fucking lame."
Greybore in comparison is a breath of fresh air, he is not a special snowflake but rather just a normal dude pretending to be speical.

 

[perfectslumbers]

Snowflake npcs is a great and irreplaceable part of Owlcat games. They have some misses like Ember and Seelah but I like that companions stories are often genuine and relateable emotionally but are so fantastical and strange materially.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I don't see how both Seelah and Ember are "misses".

Seelah is a Paladin who made - and makes - her share of mistakes, which might or might not bite her in the end. I guess it depends on the main character now. Even the start of her carrier as a Paladin was far from straightforward.

Ember is a saint. I don't like saints, especially in Abrahamic religions, so I am planning another good ending for Ember in the second playthrough. However, this concept exists, it is a powerful mobilizing factor, and it works, whether or not actual people did actual miracles IRL. On Golarion miracles literally exist, so the concept works even better. And so does Ember.

 

[perfectslumbers]

I don't see how both Seelah and Ember are "misses".

Seelah is extremely boring and my eyes glazed over whenever I was doing her quest line. She's not actively bad, just the most boring companion I've ever met in a crpg. I find it hard to pinpoint why though, imposter syndrome is a pretty relateable and good topic to base a character around, but I ultimately find her uncompelling and poorly written.

Ember actively undermines the other characters struggles in the game by so easily granting redemption to demons. Many people say it's because she has a godlike figure on her side converting them, but I don't think creating a justification for it makes it any better. She still ultimately undermines the difficulty that the other characters have with morality (like Staunton and Aru.) Her quest line has practically 0 drama or conflict either, it's just "she's nice to demons and they become really nice " over and over again with no consequences.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Seelah is extremely boring and my eyes glazed over whenever I was doing her quest line.

This is on you, not on the character. Which is fair - everybody has preferences. However, it does not mean that the character is bad in general; it just means that it is not good for everyone.

I will not argue in detail about Ember, because, as I wrote before, I followed Wenduag's insight and chose an early good ending for Ember. Saints can be infuriating, though. Maybe, saints have to be infuriating for common people who strive to achieve the same ideals.

 

[perfectslumbers]

This is on you, not on the character. Which is fair - everybody has preferences. However, it does not mean that the character is bad in general; it just means that it is not good for everyone.

When I say Seelah is poorly written I do not mean that I have peered into the metaphysical fabric of reality and determined that she is objectively poorly written according to the universes incontrovertible standards. I mean that i played the game and I subjectively found her boring as shit.

 

[LannTheStupid]

perfectslumbers As my ability to rate posts is withdrawn, I will write this reply to say that I completely agree with your attitude towards the quality of writing. It is, indeed, subjective, and can be subjective only.

 

[perfectslumbers]

perfectslumbers As my ability to rate posts is withdrawn, I will write this reply to say that I completely agree with your attitude towards the quality of writing. It is, indeed, subjective, and can be subjective only.

Glad that we reached an agreement Sorry for being a snarky asshole about it.

 

[The_Mask]

She's not actively bad, just the most boring companion I've ever met in a crpg.

This is actually the worst thing you can say about a character. If a character is good, that's ideal. If a character is bad, you can dislike them or make fun of them.

If a character is boring, then that's a HUGE problem. Especially for the writer. I hope I don't need to quote myself again about Seelah vs Regil.

 

[Percy]

I killed Galfrey right in front of Seelah and no reactivity at all.

She should try to fight the MC in that instance surely.

This is more problematic than her writing and skin colour.

 

[Sunri]

I killed Galfrey right in front of Seelah and no reactivity at all.

She should try to fight the MC in that instance surely.

This is more problematic than her writing and skin colour.

I don't think she will ever oppose you no matter what you do sometimes she just leaves that all.

 

[perfectslumbers]

I killed Galfrey right in front of Seelah and no reactivity at all.

Seelah and Sosiel left my party after Iz when i did that, so there seems to be some sort of unfinished reactivity. They definitely shouldn't wait until after Iz to leave though. Act 5 also seems to have a lot less companion interjections than the rest of the game.