Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Lacrymas]

Well, for such a challenge I have only one answer: I fail. So it is pointless for me to even try. I like simultaneous movement and aiming moving targets, though. As usual, to each his own.

It's not that only you personally fail, it just isn't a feasible way to play an RPG unless you want to sink too many hours into it. While it is possible to control a RTwP RPG without pausing, it's possible in the sense difficult pieces on a piano are possible to be played, it requires actual practice time to get your keybindings right and memorize everyone's humongous skill sets. It just isn't worth the time unless you are obsessed like Pink Eye or all builds have like 4 active abilities. This doesn't make it more hardcore, it makes it unattractive and unapproachable. RTSes work because they don't have like 20+ active abilities per character and the focus is shared between micro and macro, with micro being more about movement and target acquisition than ability usage.

 

[Kaivokz]

If this will be balanced so even players that dont want to engage on it can win, that means those battles will be super easy to players that do want to engage in, if you can set the difficulty to hard on those battles, that means if you dont engage on them, are you going to lose? What hard means here? Harder encounters on the HoMM layer or making the HoMM battles mandatory and you gonna lose on the auto-battle system otherwise?

I believe they said two things: 1) HoMM battles are completely optional if you don’t want to personally lead the army (I could be wrong but I think I read this), and 2) there will be difficulty settings specifically for the HoMM mode if you want more or less challenge.

Meh. The challenge of the system is to play in real time and micromanage in a real time environment. Pausing should only be used for when things get too hectic, i.e being flanked from behind. Of course, you're free to do whatever you want. It's your game. I just don't see the point of playing in Real Time if you're going to be pausing that much, and spending a lot of time planning while paused.

The experience is inherently different. If you play Baldur’s Gate and auto pause every 6 seconds, it does not resemble traditional TB. Namely, you can’t tell one unit to do x, have them do x, and then proceed to the next unit; that flow of time simply doesn’t occur in RTwP. What you’re saying is equivalent to “if you’re going to eat an apple, you might as well just eat an orange because they’re both roughly spherical.”

To try to spell it out more clearly: when you unpause in RTwP, everyone moves. Two archers could fire arrows that kill each other. Two wizards could cast a spell at the same instant. Or alternatively, one wizard could counter spell an instant before the other wizard casts (say while he is in the cast animation), one archer’s arrow could hit the other an instant before he fires. All of these scenarios are present even if you pause once a second and are not replicated in traditional TB (even with things like overwatch, which try to dissolve the asynchronous flow of time).

To say the challenge of BG or IWD comes from trying to play it like an RTS with limited pause sounds absurd to me; if that’s how you play them, I wouldn’t be surprised you don’t enjoy it.

 

[vortex]

What quirks me is camera rotation at https://youtu.be/seP0biE1GMM?t=822.
You could put that item you need to pick-up in visible spot. No need to rotate the camera.

 

[Kaivokz]

It's not that only you personally fail, it just isn't a feasible way to play an RPG unless you want to sink too many hours into it.

I don’t understand how this is a good argument when Original Sin has 100+ hour play times, largely in part because of the slow turn based combat. Even pausing frequently, I bet if we put a battle against kobolds in the nashkel mine vs a similar fight in D:OS or any similar TB game, the RTwP one would be faster. In fact, when playing through D:OS i felt slogged down by combat more than in any RTwP game I’ve played.

So you’re investing time either way if it is an “epic” RPG with a high ratio of combat to other content. If your suggestion is to reduce the amount of combat, that works for both systems. BG and D:OS would be similarly impacted if we picked 20 “important” battles and only kept those in the game.

 

[Pink Eye]

>To say the challenge of BG or IWD comes from trying to play it like an RTS with limited pause sounds absurd to me; if that’s how you play them, I wouldn’t be surprised you don’t enjoy it.
Funny you mention that. I was specifically going to suggest to the developers to limit the amount of pauses you can do in unfair+.

 

[Lacrymas]

I don’t understand how this is a good argument when Original Sin has 100+ hour play times, largely in part because of the slow turn based combat. Even pausing frequently, I bet if we put a battle against kobolds in the nashkel mine vs a similar fight in D:OS or any similar TB game, the RTwP one would be faster. In fact, when playing through D:OS i felt slogged down by combat more than in any RTwP game I’ve played.

So you’re investing time either way if it is an “epic” RPG with a high ratio of combat to other content. If your suggestion is to reduce the amount of combat, that works for both systems. BG and D:OS would be similarly impacted if we picked 20 “important” battles and only kept those in the game.

The difference is consecutive hours. You lose your practiced skills if you don't use them often. You can play a TB game for 2 hours, then pick it up again in a month and you'll be at exactly the same "training level", but you would've forgotten your keybindings by then. And the amount of hours you need to sink into getting a good usability level to play a RTwP without pause in the first place also count. Again, this doesn't make it more hardcore, it makes it unapproachable and bewildering. You are better off using pause/playing TB games and use the extra hours to learn how to play an instrument. If you are a competitive RTwP RPG player (which doesn't exist), go for it.

 

[Roguey]

Not at all. The core content is great, and they absolutely *could* have made everything to the same quality. The logic offered for slashing the game was that players ("muh feedback") felt the game was too long. The issue, however, was never that it was too long, but that the end was simply unfinished/lackluster/bugged. They're throwing tons of resources into new mechanics and features right this very moment. Over-extension isn't just a matter of "muh game length", but a laundry-list of potential issues and poor planning, and there is functionally nothing that would've prevented them from doing a more even spread in a way that would've hardly noticeable.

Yes, they're in danger of over-extending themselves again thanks to feature creep. Fortunately they're being smarter this time with content creep. Going wild with content creep again isn't going to make a better game.

There's nothing inherent in "longer game" that makes said game worse. It's a bogus argument based on a false premise.

And yet so many RPGs have bad final areas. It's not like they do that on purpose.

 

[Efe]

roguey you arent going to list what exactly was missing in kingmakers later chapters compared to tabletop module?

you may not like pausing that much pink but that is what peak rtwp performance looks like. that is why many hate it.

 

[Pink Eye]

>you may not like pausing that much pink but that is what peak rtwp performance looks like. that is why many hate it.
As I mentioned, that's fine. You don't see me begrudging anyone for playing on story mode.

 

[Luckmann]

And yet so many RPGs have bad final areas. It's not like they do that on purpose.

And yet, they vary wildly in length, style, features, development time, and budget. Maybe intent is as irrelevant as length.

 

[NJClaw]

And yet so many RPGs have bad final areas. It's not like they do that on purpose.

They do that because it's a Dark Souls reference and they aspire to be the Dark Souls of crpgs

 

[The Wall]

Yeah Deadfire would have likely been far better if the dev team were cutoff the internet and all that bullshit "feedback". I liked the white march enough to think that POE1 sequel was gonna be great or at least better but then POE2 happened.

That's because you should listen to feedback but do your own thing. Consoomers are there to consoome, not design. If it was up to Steam every game would end up as mix of all genres, it would be Stardew Valley and Dark Souls, Turn Based and Action, Complex and Simple, Easy and Hard. And all of that and much more at the same time. I want to play game from developers not deaf to feedback but with their vision.TM which won't get on its knees first time someone cries in steam forums. Nowadays too many devs outsource all design decisions to community and won't even fart without approval of gamers who frankly don't know what they want. Dark Souls devs with "You'll shut up, shit your pants, suck on my gameplay and LOVE it!" are true artists. Little Serbian children story, taught in elementary school, called "The World can't be pleased", in other words only whore can try to please everyone and its fine to not be liked by all, needs to be read by 90% of nu-game designers

[TLDR] We need more devs like Daniel Vavra

 

[Roguey]

And yet, they vary wildly in length, style, features, development time, and budget. Maybe intent is as irrelevant as length.

People should make games as long as they're able to maintain quality and that exact point varies, yes.

They also have very little incentive to make an even longer game given that half the players never made it past chapter 1, 25% completed chapter 2, 20% completed chapter 3, 16% completed chapter 4... and these are still the good chapters. What's the point of putting in a bunch of work most people are never going to see?

 

[The Wall]

They also have very little incentive to make an even longer game given that half the players never made it past chapter 1, 25% completed chapter 2, 20% completed chapter 3, 16% completed chapter 4... and these are still the good chapters. What's the point of putting in a bunch of work most people are never going to see?

And in same breath those gamers who didn't play past Chapter One would refuse to purchase and spit in face of game that decides to be of same or greater quality but little bit shorter. Humans are stoopid, and not even best whore can please everyone

Devs, make your games

 

[Ontopoly]

Players don't know what they want, especially casual scum. developers should never listen to them blindly. Players will ruin the game for themselves every time

Changing your vision and art because someone asks you to shows you have no passion. All I want to see is passion, every thing else in a game is secondary.

 

[Lacrymas]

Ontopoly, are you perhaps very young? I'm not throwing blame if you are, your statements just remind me a lot of young people's. I was never this naive, but a lot of my colleagues were. Passion doesn't sustain you for hours a day, every day, trust me. I mean from a personal point of view, not a pecuniary one. It's about being stubborn and knowing what you are doing, perhaps also because you can't imagine doing anything else, the why of it escapes you a lot of the time. That thrill of raw force that strikes you at opportune moments is very rare.

 

[Ontopoly]

Ontopoly, are you perhaps very young? I'm not throwing blame if you are, your statements just remind me a lot of young people's. I was never this naive, but a lot of my colleagues were. Passion doesn't sustain you for hours a day, every day, trust me. I mean from a personal point of view, not a pecuniary one. It's about being stubborn and knowing what you are doing, perhaps also because you can't imagine doing anything else, the why of it escapes you a lot of the time. That thrill of raw force that strikes you at opportune moments is very rare.

The words of a passionless hack.

 

[Luckmann]

And yet, they vary wildly in length, style, features, development time, and budget. Maybe intent is as irrelevant as length.

People should make games as long as they're able to maintain quality and that exact point varies, yes.

They also have very little incentive to make an even longer game given that half the players never made it past chapter 1, 25% completed chapter 2, 20% completed chapter 3, 16% completed chapter 4... and these are still the good chapters. What's the point of putting in a bunch of work most people are never going to see?

People that aren't going to play your game aren't going to play your game anyway. What a garbage argument, designing games based on who doesn't play them. Only 25% completed chapter 2. Should the game have stopped at Chapter 2, then? After all, 75% of players didn' even finish it! Really, now, this is the bottom of the barrel.

 

[amurath]

Man, that gameplay video got me even more excited. Looks like you'll be able to arrest or even murder companions you don't like or who disagree with you. I'm sure there's be even crazier options further along in the game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seP0biE1GMM

 

[Luckmann]

They also have very little incentive to make an even longer game given that half the players never made it past chapter 1, 25% completed chapter 2, 20% completed chapter 3, 16% completed chapter 4... and these are still the good chapters. What's the point of putting in a bunch of work most people are never going to see?

Passion doesn't sustain you for hours a day, every day, trust me. I mean from a personal point of view, not a pecuniary one. It's about being stubborn and knowing what you are doing, perhaps also because you can't imagine doing anything else, the why of it escapes you a lot of the time. That thrill of raw force that strikes you at opportune moments is very rare.

Consoomers are there to consoome, not design. If it was up to Steam every game would end up as mix of all genres, it would be Stardew Valley and Dark Souls, Turn Based and Action, Complex and Simple, Easy and Hard. And all of that and much more at the same time. I want to play game from developers not deaf to feedback but with their vision.TM which won't get on its knees first time someone cries in steam forums. Nowadays too many devs outsource all design decisions to community and won't even fart without approval of "gamers" who frankly don't know what they want. Dark Souls devs with "You'll shut up, shit your pants, suck on my gameplay and LOVE it!" are true artists. Little Serbian children story, taught in elementary school, called "The World can't be pleased". In other words, only a whore can try to please everyone and it's fine to not be liked by all. Needs to be read by 90% of nu-game designers.

Players don't know what they want, especially casual scum. Developers should never listen to them blindly. Players will ruin the game for themselves every time

Changing your vision and art because someone asks you to shows you have no passion. All I want to see is passion; every thing else in a game is secondary!

This post is an art installation.

I call it; "The duality of man".

 

[AwesomeButton]

Sawyer knowingly made a game for actual retards, uncritically based on "feedback", in an effort to appeal to the lowest common denominators

That's the hypocrisy that has always been around PoE - both games were "let's ask grognards for money and with that money make a game targeted towards casuals".

 

[Pink Eye]

In celebration of this game's success. I have drawn fan art:

 

[vortex]

In celebration of this game's success. I have drawn fan art:

You should have colored one eye pink.

 

[Efe]

You really should broaden your horizons a bit...
ask for monky archetypes for other classes too.. imagine a kinetic monk, punchadin or fist of north saint

 

[Pink Eye]

Here is Val anon's fan art of Valerie: