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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
AVELLONE IN THE HOUSE: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/2778351

Chris Avellone: Narrative Paths

Translating a Pathfinder Adventure Path like Wrath of the Righteous is no easy task. Wrath, like Pathfinder: Kingmaker, has the enormous challenge of translating one of Paizo’s Pathfinder Adventure Paths into the digital realm.

For those not familiar with Adventure Paths, they are a series of six interconnected modules that take Pathfinder adventurers from Level 1 to… well… a frighteningly high level. A table top playthrough of an Adventure Path can be akin like playing six seasons of Game of Thrones, it’s that epic. And intricate. Also, in Wrath’s case, it also comes with a healthy splash of demons and demon lords.

The effort in translating the core story line doesn’t even take into account the additional story layers the Mythic Paths and the companion interactions provide the core story experience – it’s like taking the core story, adding six more interwoven stories (now 8, with the stretch goals met – thank you all!), and then interweaving the companion stories on top of that.

So the question is how to adapt this amount of narrative content into the computer gaming realm. I’ll go into some detail about how it’s done from a narrative standpoint, courtesy of the efforts of our writing lead, Alexander Komzolov.

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First, a pass of the core story is done, usually taking the base adventure path, breaking the modules into chapters and outlining the major beats in each chapter. Often, because most everyone at Owlcat has played the modules, this layout process is made easier by simply referencing the major figures and events without needing to go into the same depth as described in the module, which makes everyone’s lives easier.

This process is far from a strict literal translation. Each story beat is weighed with a resource cost (something that is easy for a tabletop game may not be easy in the digital space and vice versa), and there’s also an examination to see if we want to move any of the Adventure Paths’ beats, NPCs, or even antagonists to different points in the adventure – if a major villain only happens to be prominently featured in the fifth or sixth module, we may want to foreshadow them earlier or their threat earlier so their presentation as an adversary is consistent throughout.

Aside from adjustments to major characters and introductions, this process is also applied to the protagonist, especially with regards for emotional highs and lows and story beats intimately tied to the character’s journey (this is in addition to the Mythic Path choices). As we did with Kingmaker, we’d work with Paizo on developing new themes or additional elements that we could use with the protagonist (and other characters’ arcs) in the digital game – what internal struggles they face, what questions and themes they may struggle with, and so on. As important asthe Fifth Crusade is to the future of Golarion, its importance to the protagonist and the player are equally important.

But what of companions and the Mythic Paths? Good question. So the companions and Mythic paths aren’t integrated in this initial story treatment, it solely focuses on the existing plot of the adventure path, what we want to include, and also any significant changes in the adventure path, its characters, the lore, or character backstories - these changes can be significant indeed, but they are all done to build upon the existing material and bring a new experience to those who may be familiar with the adventure path. Once we’re confident we have a strong spine for the core story, then we look at building upon it and expanding it – starting with the Mythic Paths.

Mythic Paths are a major part of the Wrath narrative. Separate storyline docs are drafted for each Mythic Path (these are not usually as long as the core story doc, but they are still intricate). These individual Mythic Path narrative docs highlight the major figures involved in the Path – and these may be figures already existing in the core modules, or they might be brand new allies and unexpected arrivals that appear over the course of the game. Whenever possible, however, we do go back to the Adventure Path and see what hooks can be drawn to characters and events in the core story that would fit in well for the Mythic Path.

For example, with the Aeon Mythic Path and its focus on uncovering and correcting imbalances, we might take a close look at characters in the Wrath Adventure Path and see if any figures might draw the Aeon’s eye… and their judgment.

The focus of these Paths, much like the core story itself, is to outline the reactivity, the significant choices, and for lack of a more drawn-out explanation, the “fun” and “cool” moments, abilities, and choices each Mythic Path can make that affect the adventure. The intention is that two players playing different Mythic Paths (and even multiple players playing the same Path) will have a different, unique experience they can contrast and compare with other players… and not only do these Mythic Paths give great role-playing opportunities, but they can provide new perspectives on the Fifth Crusade and your battle against the demons of the Worldwound. If a player wants to replay Wrath and try a new Path, they get the benefit of having a new story experience and reactivity as well, which is what role-playing games are all about.

Around the same time the Mythic Paths are drafted and reviewed, we also incorporate the companion design docs. Special care is taken to insure to not only create interesting intrigues, romances, conflicts, and friendships among the player and the companions (as well as each other) but also that the player can build a balanced party of allies that reflects the alignment of the protagonist and would be willing to accompany the player on the journey. It is a principle of the narrative design that no matter what alignment, the player can recruit allies that will share (or at least tolerate) the protagonist’s approach to the Fifth Crusade – as well as provide interesting perspectives, pushback, and interactions even though all may have a similar alignment and approach. Classes, alignments, and overt/hidden agendas are all part of this companion design, the examples of which you’ve already seen in earlier updates.

This is only the initial part of the process, however. Not every story element or companion arc may make it into the game – some may change, some may be added to, or new interesting hooks may be discovered during quests or area design that may give additional depth to these characters based on interactions with other parts of the design.

But that’s what makes it fun, and what makes being a narrative designer a joy – sometimes the characters themselves take you down narrative roads you wouldn’t expect, but the end destination is true to their personalities and their motivations you meant them to be.

Chris

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Luckmann

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You really should broaden your horizons a bit...
ask for monky archetypes for other classes too.. imagine a kinetic monk, punchadin or fist of north saint
I am disheartened that they seem to model the vast majority of archetypes after existing PF1 archetypes, some which are heavily adapted anyway, instead of doing some of their own, based on general inspiration or what is thematically fitting for each game (so civilizational/wilderness for PF:K, for example). I remember some Alternative Class Features (Holy Monk, Holy Strike) for Monk in 3.5 that'd make a baller archetype, giving a Monk Aura of Courage, Smite Evil, and Turn Undead (all as Paladin), and makes fists Good-aligned instead of Magical.

I'd also kill for good Paladin and Bloodrager pugilist archetypes, punching the shit out of enemies w/ gauntlets. Nothing good like that is in the tabletop, afaik. Especially Bloodrager will be interesting, since there are very few official archetypes for them to adapt.
 

Kaivokz

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The difference is consecutive hours. You lose your practiced skills if you don't use them often. You can play a TB game for 2 hours, then pick it up again in a month and you'll be at exactly the same "training level", but you would've forgotten your keybindings by then. And the amount of hours you need to sink into getting a good usability level to play a RTwP without pause in the first place also count. Again, this doesn't make it more hardcore, it makes it unapproachable and bewildering. You are better off using pause/playing TB games and use the extra hours to learn how to play an instrument. If you are a competitive RTwP RPG player (which doesn't exist), go for it.
I think we've gone back and forth on this point a couple of times, but I am still left incredulous by your examples. How many people here actually play RTwP games without pause, and why? The first thing I do when playing IE games or new IE inspired games is set the auto-pause conditions so that the flow of combat is organically broken up. I wonder: do people who think RTwP is inherently inferior to TB try to play RTwP as a RT game? The system is designed with the pause button in mind and, as I explained in response to Pink Eye, using pause (even very frequently) does not reduce RTwP to traditional TB, because there are many scenarios that cannot happen in TB which can happen in RTwP.

I took breaks from Kingmaker a number of times due to real life schedule and never had a learning curve when I started playing again. The only hotkeys I use are pause and select all companions. Same thing with PoE; I finished the game, took a long break, came back and did a solo wizard frozen crown run and succeeded after five or so runs (the first run that got out of chapter one went all the way). The fundamentals are always the same with a D&D-like system:
auto-pause on combat start -> select priority target / position your team / use opener spells -> auto-pause on enemy defeat -> select next priority target / adapt position, tactics, and spell-usage based on the particular battle -> repeat
 

Generic-Giant-Spider

Guest
Chris is writing for WotR?

Yes, I have it on good authority that Lord Avellone walked through the doors of Owlcat flanked by two Russian beauties (dressed in Soviet fashion) and wearing a white tiger fur coat (he stylistically opted to not put his arms in the sleeves) and upon taking one glance around merely uttered, "We broke Sawyer, now we will crush Swen."
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
I think we've gone back and forth on this point a couple of times, but I am still left incredulous by your examples. How many people here actually play RTwP games without pause, and why?
Well, yes, that's what I mean. Almost nobody plays it without pause because it's unnecessary and it consumes too much time. Pink Eye was arguing that frequently pausing like in that video is not "the way" to play RTwP, while that is exactly how it is being played by the vast majority of people, including veterans (outside of builds which are designed to be auto-attack champions). Like I said, it's a feature not a bug. As for stuff not being able to happen in TB that can in RTwP, that's true but not in a good way. Outside of systems like PoE where everyone has their own swing timers, there's no way to simulate who is faster in RTwP, it all depends on when the orders were first executed. While the turn order in TB simulates exactly that, who was faster in drawing the bow and shooting the arrow.
 
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I'd also kill for good Paladin and Bloodrager pugilist archetypes, punching the shit out of enemies w/ gauntlets. Nothing good like that is in the tabletop, afaik. Especially Bloodrager will be interesting, since there are very few official archetypes for them to adapt.

What about magus? There are 3 punchy magus archetypes. The Esoteric is pretty meh, but the other two are quite interesting. Best part, those two are compatible with Hexcrafter. Spellcombat, spellstrike and hexstrike combo, all in one round.
 

Roguey

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People that aren't going to play your game aren't going to play your game anyway. What a garbage argument, designing games based on who doesn't play them. Only 25% completed chapter 2. Should the game have stopped at Chapter 2, then? After all, 75% of players didn' even finish it! Really, now, this is the bottom of the barrel.

Depends on how many hours chapter1 and 2 were and if most of the people who completed it would feel satisfied with an RPG of that length. From what I can tell, when it comes to traditional party-based RPGs, 20-30 is considered acceptable for an expansion, 40-60 is considered good enough as a base.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
We can still vote even though we've pledged on the 'Dex, right?
 

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