Personally, I think it's now safe to say Disco Elysium is better than Planescape: Torment.

[Infinitron]

I'm not sure Martinaise is better than Sigil, but I liked the Sea Fortress more than the Fortress of Regrets.

 

[Harthwain]

Sure people have always wanted to be rich, but the point is that the innovation of new ideas and technologies didn't lead to getting rich, so there was no incentive to doing so.

I'd rather say the technological advancement was slower because the accumulation of knowledge was more difficult and the spread of technology more limited. Paper and gunpowder are two good examples here. Right now we live in an age where the spread of information is very rapid and it builds upon itself, so we are able to make progress faster and faster than people who lived before us and they were doing it faster than people who lived before them, etc.

Wealth in antiquity came from owning land and slaves. People weren't developing innovative technology unless the need was clear and there, at which point it was generally coming from one source - the government, army, etc - rather then the masses. Whoever invented the aqueduct as part of the Roman legions didn't get shit for doing it.

I don't entirely agree. Sure, the government and the army can be a big source of advancement (for obvious reasons), but I wouldn't sell short "the masses". I mean, what about the printing press? Scientific method? Fire? Logic? Wheel? Hygiene? Discovery just happens - someone gets an idea or tries to solve a specific problem and gets a thought how to deal with it. Remember Archimedes' "Eureka"?

 

[BruceVC]

Unfettered capitalism can lead to issues - ala child labor, etc

Give me one good reason why child labor is an issue and not an opportunity for children to become economically independent and gain work experience.

But on serious note thats why you need labor laws and similar legislation to ensure you dont have child labor in any society

 

[Kainan]

Wasn't the space race kick-started by the commies? They shot that robot from NV into space and the US shit their pants.

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

Sure people have always wanted to be rich, but the point is that the innovation of new ideas and technologies didn't lead to getting rich, so there was no incentive to doing so.

I'd rather say the technological advancement was slower because the accumulation of knowledge was more difficult and the spread of technology more limited. Paper and gunpowder are two good examples here. Right now we live in an age where the spread of information is very rapid and it builds upon itself, so we are able to make progress faster and faster than people who lived before us and they were doing it faster than people who lived before them, etc.

Wealth in antiquity came from owning land and slaves. People weren't developing innovative technology unless the need was clear and there, at which point it was generally coming from one source - the government, army, etc - rather then the masses. Whoever invented the aqueduct as part of the Roman legions didn't get shit for doing it.

I don't entirely agree. Sure, the government and the army can be a big source of advancement (for obvious reasons), but I wouldn't sell short "the masses". I mean, what about the printing press? Scientific method? Fire? Logic? Wheel? Hygiene? Discovery just happens - someone gets an idea or tries to solve a specific problem and gets a thought how to deal with it. Remember Archimedes' "Eureka"?

But I haven't been arguing that advancement didn't happen before capitalism, of course it did, for various reasons - it's simply that the pace of advancement was much slower - capitalism rocketboosted it

 

[Humbaba]

I'm not sure Martinaise is better than Sigil, but I liked the Sea Fortress more than the Fortress of Regrets.

How did you get your staff position with takes like these?

 

[Infinitron]

I'm not sure Martinaise is better than Sigil, but I liked the Sea Fortress more than the Fortress of Regrets.

How did you get your staff position with takes like these?

The only good part of the Fortress of Regrets was talking to your incarnations. The combat parts were bad, the forced battle with Ignus/Vhailor was bizarre and anti-climactic, the encounter with TTO was meh. The ending dialogue is okay I guess but brief.

The Sea Fortress was much stronger and more consistent! Dreaming about Dora, meeting the Deserter, meeting the Phasmid, and finally reuniting with your old crew back in town. It's one best-in-class sequence after another.

 

[Humbaba]

I'm not sure Martinaise is better than Sigil, but I liked the Sea Fortress more than the Fortress of Regrets.

How did you get your staff position with takes like these?

The only good part of the Fortress of Regrets was talking to your incarnations. The combat parts were bad, the forced battle with Ignus/Vhailor was bizarre and anti-climactic, the encounter with TTO was meh. The ending dialogue is okay-ish I guess but brief.

The Sea Fortress was much stronger and more consistent! Dreaming about Dora, meeting the Deserter, meeting the Phasmid, and finally meeting up with your old crew back in town. It's one best-in-class sequence after another.

Sounds like someone couldn't figure out how to juke the shadows.

Ignus/Vhailor fight was great because it showed that the game valued characterisation over gameplay convenience.

TTO is THE greatest boss fight ever and the ONLY good example of talking a boss to death (no, Master does not count, because it hinges on him being so fucking retarded as not to notice that his super mutants weren't having sex). Ending is equally fantastic.

Meanwhile, DE pulls some played out "boohoo muh wife" bullshit and then just lore dumps you at the end. You are insane.

 

[Popiel]

Very true, talking with the past Incarnations was the definite highpoint of P:T's ending - especially the part when your character (not you, the gamer, which was a true narrative masterstroke) learns his true name, name of the first Incarnation, true name of the Nameless One from all these ages ago... and, as the current Nameless One describes it, it's just so mundane, so ordinary. To quote: and it is such a *simple* thing. Followed by the first Incarnation just silencing you, quietly, because it's an intimate moment, not for the player to invade. Moment of literary brilliance, and one you had to fight for (you had to unlock the Bronze Sphere to get that knowledge).

All the rest of it? Yeah, talking with the companions was nice, and I would rank conversation with TTO as a high point as well, but overall the ending is badly designed. Fights are not interesting and bloaty, some narrative choices are bizarre and out of place. DE's ending is overall much stronger, with more highpoints. I believe it took what was best from P:T closure and expanded upon it.

 

[Absinthe]

The basic problem with Disco Elysium is that it fails to be a RPG. While it nominally flirts with things like stats, gear, skills, thought cabinet, etcetera, in reality all of it just boils down to skill modifiers with one or two minute divergences. Moreover, all the skills are pretty much cosmetic. They affect the flavor of dialogues you get along the way, but there are no obstacles to progression that demand player or character skill to progress. So in the first case, as a RPG it is a failure. The character development system of Disco: Elysium is simply cosmetic, pretending at much greater depth and consequence than it actually possesses....

I've played Disco's opening hour or so about three-four times before settling on a character build I liked, and this is false.

Within that time frame, your skill choices directly affect if you are able to:

Talk the hotel owner down drastically in the price of the room (different skill levels/decisions can lead from it being 130, to 100, to 30, etc). - this is an absolute obstacle to progression, because if you don't come up with the cash in that first day you lose the game.

Punch Cuno, thereby earning his respect, or flub the punch/talk with him and make him think you're a little bitch - at which point you've directly locked out content as well as progression on the questline.

Those are the two biggest ones I remember offhand.

I can go one step further and say that as a game it is also a failure. Games require gameplay challenges, but in Disco: Elysium there is no real form of challenge. Progress is guaranteed. Some people assert that DE is more appropriate as an Adventure game, but it fails to be part of the Adventure game genre also, because Adventure games have problem-solving challenges. There is no hard "game over" state in Adventures, but there are puzzles and the like and if you fail to figure out how to move past your current predicament you are stuck there, so the challenge is there and your failure state is an inability to progress. DE does not do this much either.

Again, not what I saw - there were multiple moments in game where I had to, for lack of a better word, grind up my skills to pass a check and move on with the story. Forward progress was not always guaranteed, and having seen wiki's and other sources after beating the game, there's content I missed as a direct result of my skill choices. Also you never play Sierra adventure games?

IIRC even if you fuck everything up, the VN will continue moving ahead. And yes, Sierra games feature actual deaths and game over screens for failure, but I was making a point out of how adventure games that don't have game overs still have gameplay challenges.

This on another major problem with Disco Elysium: It is a very linear tale in the end. There is a bunch of totally optional content, and you might be able to cut through a part of the plot (iirc there's a Shivers check for that?) but on the whole of it, the narrative is predetermined for you. You cannot meaningfully chart your own path through the game or take a different road. Most choices pretend to be of more consequence than they actually are. Hit on the first girl you see? Okay, if you fail, your fuck-up makes sense. But if you succeed at the skillcheck? You still basically fail. Apparently the situation only allowed for one outcome, with a slight difference in the cosmetics of it. If you decide to be a hobo cop, you are still not permitted to actually live homeless. You have to take the rooms the game offers you. There is tons of shit like this, and that's just the minor stuff, where it hints at branching but doesn't deliver. The central plot is basically indifferent to your efforts.

Well, you can sleep in a dumpster, so you can actually be a hobo - but still, the central plot of most RPG's is the same regardless. What RPG allows for meaningful alteration of the central story throughout? Fallout 1 you're still always going to have to find the water chip - you're always going to have to find the master. How you handle those plot points is where the choices play out, but the basic plot isn't going to change.

Sleeping in a dumpster is auto-lose, despite the whole "hobo cop" thing. They flirted with making it an option, then just made it a lose-state. And there are RPGs where you can change up which ending you head towards and how you approach the end, but really my main point is that this visual novel really isn't offering much in terms of player choices mattering.

 

[Harthwain]

IIRC even if you fuck everything up, the game will continue moving ahead.

There is - or was, not sure if this has been changed at some point or not - a moment when you could fuck up by not having enough money to pay up and not being able to convince manager to let you off the hook. There are also a bunch of things that end up with you getting the Game Over screen, so technically it was possible to fuck up enough to fail at completing the game.

 

[V17]

Capitalism absolutely is responsible for this. Science was the means but capitalism was the engine. Without proper incentive people as a whole aren't going to try to innovate, itterate, etc.

Sure, but the desire to be rich is universal. You don't need capitalism (as a specific ideology) for that to work. This is why I brought up the antiquity example - back then people wanted to get rich too, they simply didn't have the means that were available later on, so the claim that the entire modern world exists because of capitalism is giving capitalism way too much credit in my opinion, because if we had science and no capitalism then we'd still have people willing to profit one way or another. There were also other reasons for advancement in any given field than purely financial gain, like developing new ways to kill each other (steel, crossbow, gunpowder, etc.) or teaching people how to read (advertisement, propaganda, etc.).

As much as I respect science, my experience with the reality of academia is that without the push of capitalism most scientists would be about 10x less effective in creating usable things because they think that doing basic research is the only prestigious type of science. While some amount of basic research with no specific goal is necessary and sometimes leads to breakthroughs, I'd bet that 80% of usable and influential inventions that changed people's lives were only created because somebody holding a whip forced the scientists to plan research with a clear profitable goal, refusing to give them grant money and food otherwise.

 

[None]

IIRC even if you fuck everything up, the game will continue moving ahead.

There is - or was, not sure if this has been changed at some point or not - a moment when you could fuck up by not having enough money to pay up and not being able to convince manager to let you off the hook. There are also a bunch of things that end up with you getting the Game Over screen, so technically it was possible to fuck up enough to fail at completing the game.

There are quite a few ways for the game to end prematurely: https://discoelysium.fandom.com/wiki/Endings

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I'm not sure Martinaise is better than Sigil, but I liked the Sea Fortress more than the Fortress of Regrets.

Star Forge is better than either.
Kotor literally can't stop winning.

 

[ResetRPG]

While I love both, PST's world and writing is a lot more engrossing to me- so I give to point to Planescape.

And even though the combat in PST isn't that good, I would still say that it ended up making the gameplay experience of Torment more enjoyable as well, since it's not solely dialogue based, and allows for variety in the gameplay.

Both are personal favorites of mine, and I think both are well worth playing for anyone who likes good stories in games.

 

[Nortar]

Gaben knows!

 

[Sunri]

Both games are great.

 

[perfectslumbers]

7 pm. I've arrived back home from my job as a pork scratching spotter at the pork factory on the outskirts of town. I can hear my wifes boyfriend Robert Kurvitz fucking her in the bedroom, he told me he'll leave the door open to reward me for my hard work at the pork factory. I feel hungry so I go into the kitchen and grab a soylent out of the fridge, Robert said if Lenin were alive today he would be a vegan.

I got into an argument with Robert last night. I was lonely and decided to put my foot down, I should be allowed to fuck my wife as well, or at least hug her or hold her hand. I told him that Engels would believe that we should share my wife, just as the means of production should be shared. Robert just laughed and said "Those who don't put the work in, don't get to fuck." I was confused and told him I work at the pork factory, but he laughed again and went back into my wifes bedroom.

I sip longingly on my soylent and continue with my readthrough of Das Kapital. Before meeting Robert I was counterrevolutionary bourgeoise scum, but with his guidance I am being re-educated. Things were better before my wife told me she wants a polyamorous relationship. I'm not happy with it but I know that's just my unnatural emotion 'jealousy,' talking. Monogamy is immoral and controlling after all.

I get on my windows vista PC in the kitchen (Robert makes me keep it in the kitchen since he says he needs the rest of the house,) and am launching my favourite role playing game Planescape: Torment when Robert walks in. He's wearing no pants as usual but this time he has a t-shirt that says 'RPG Rockstar,' on it. I sneer, it should say 'Point and click adventure game rockstar.' Then Robert walks up and sees me playing Planescape and laughs in his usual arrogant tone "Playing a game with combat Anon? Haha I always knew you were an idiot. I could write a better game in my sleep." Then he grabbed the filet mignon I left in the fridge for him and left the room.

I was furious. How dare he insult Planescape like that. Chris may be an abuser (I believe all women regardless of the evidence,) BUT HE HAS MORE TALENT IN HIS PINKIE THAN ROBERT HAS IN HIS ENTIRE BODY. I open up internet explorer and log onto RPG codex. I start a new thread and start typing furiously "WHY DISCO ELYSIUM IS NOT AN RPG." I'm foaming at the mouth like I have rabies. This thread will show that communist bastard.

 

[Pink Eye]

Hmm. I rate it an okay out of ten. POOPERSCOOPER writes better prose in his sleep.

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

7 pm. I've arrived back home from my job as a pork scratching spotter at the pork factory on the outskirts of town. I can hear my wifes boyfriend Robert Kurvitz fucking her in the bedroom, he told me he'll leave the door open to reward me for my hard work at the pork factory. I feel hungry so I go into the kitchen and grab a soylent out of the fridge, Robert said if Lenin were alive today he would be a vegan.

I got into an argument with Robert last night. I was lonely and decided to put my foot down, I should be allowed to fuck my wife as well, or at least hug her or hold her hand. I told him that Engels would believe that we should share my wife, just as the means of production should be shared. Robert just laughed and said "Those who don't put the work in, don't get to fuck." I was confused and told him I work at the pork factory, but he laughed again and went back into my wifes bedroom.

I sip longingly on my soylent and continue with my readthrough of Das Kapital. Before meeting Robert I was counterrevolutionary bourgeoise scum, but with his guidance I am being re-educated. Things were better before my wife told me she wants a polyamorous relationship. I'm not happy with it but I know that's just my unnatural emotion 'jealousy,' talking. Monogamy is immoral and controlling after all.

I get on my windows vista PC in the kitchen (Robert makes me keep it in the kitchen since he says he needs the rest of the house,) and am launching my favourite role playing game Planescape: Torment when Robert walks in. He's wearing no pants as usual but this time he has a t-shirt that says 'RPG Rockstar,' on it. I sneer, it should say 'Point and click adventure game rockstar.' Then Robert walks up and sees me playing Planescape and laughs in his usual arrogant tone "Playing a game with combat !? Haha I always knew you were an idiot. I could write a better game in my sleep." Then he grabbed the filet mignon I left in the fridge for him and left the room.

I was furious. How dare he insult Planescape like that. Chris may be an abuser (I believe all women regardless of the evidence,) BUT HE HAS MORE TALENT IN HIS PINKIE THAN ROBERT HAS IN HIS ENTIRE BODY. I open up internet explorer and log onto RPG codex. I start a new thread and start typing furiously "WHY DISCO ELYSIUM IS NOT AN RPG." I'm foaming at the mouth like I have rabies. This thread will show that communist bastard.

I thought for sure this was going to be the origin story of Disco Elysium.

Wasted potential.

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

I thought for sure this was going to be the origin story of Disco Elysium.

OH shit it WAS

 

[Ryzer]

Both games are great.

Well said comrade, well said.

 

[notpl]

In the same way that a tuna sandwich is better than being shot in the gut with a .38 special, I guess.

 

[Morality Games]

Why are you comparing a visual novel to an RPG?

Visual novels, simulation games, turn-based and/real time strategies, and adventure games are all the less evolved cousins of RPGs.

For a role-playing game to be maximally effective, it needs to incorporate elements of all these genres; otherwise, you can't really play a role.

Occasionally, a game that is clearly a visual novel or clearly a simulation game or whatever leans hard into the RPG lineage and blurs its identity.

 

[Spectral Pontifex]

I don't get how anyone can think PST and DE are similar. Gameplay and story themes are vastly different. Yes, there is the amnesia trope in both games, but even Kotor 2 had that and nobody claims DE is Kotor's spiritual successor.

DE isn't communist propaganda. It's more of a nihilistic redditor game than anything else. The authors think themselves smart because they parody and reject all worldviews. Nothing is true and everything is meaningless. It's essentially a postmodernist work.

In contrast to the Semitic existential angst DE espouses, PST represents soul's struggle for freedom from the bonds of existence and its ultimate triumph. The protagonist fights against eternity itself.

What does DE protagonist fight against? He is an alcoholic whose wife has abandoned him. You play as a lowly existence and the best you can do is keep your job and stop drinking. There is no transcendental theme involved.

PST is in its essence a typical Aryan hero myth. You struggle against divine forces that rule the universe, whereas DE is the usual Jewish drivel dealing with personal angst and how everything is so meaningless.