Personally, I think it's now safe to say Disco Elysium is better than Planescape: Torment.

[BruceVC]

Not to mention that comparing Disco Elysium to Planescape Torment is extremely fucking dubious, since it indicates you've played classic cRPGs and yet still have the shit taste of someone who's only played the new shit.

Is it though? Disco Elysium and Planescape: Torment are similar on enough levels for people to consider Disco a true spiritual successor to Planescape, even when taking all valid criticisms towards Disco into account.

Anyone who posts there knows it true, which is why I'm shocked this thread has so many responses.

Disco Elysium is very popular and very contested RPG around here. It'd be difficult to find more divisive subject for a debate.

If that's the case, then whoever suggested I talk about DE did a good job. He should be the one getting credit since I've never heard of this forum until he posted about it. Honestly, I thought forums mostly died off like 10 years.

No dude, there are literally dozens of gaming forums on the Internet

But Codex is almost unique because here the moderators believe in true freedom of speech, so you cant be a snowflake here

 

[Absinthe]

If that's the case, then whoever suggested I talk about DE did a good job. He should be the one getting credit since I've never heard of this forum until he posted about it. Honestly, I thought forums mostly died off like 10 years.

Honestly, you'd've gotten replies to pretty much any thread you felt like starting, unless it was cripplingly retarded or outside anyone's interest. But yes, there are still videogame forums around, and the RPG Codex is still active and a pretty oldschool forum at that. It's far from the only active videogame forum though. It's just that search engines these days tend to prioritize shit like reddit and most forum software has slowly gone to shit as they kept chasing the latest trends and social media integration nonsense which made every forum transition basically suicide the usercount. When the RPG Codex moved to XenForo2 a month ago (because XF1 is now no longer supported) a bunch of effort was invested into making the UI less shit so it was more like the old XF1 layout and functionality. But there are still plenty of active forums around.

No dude, there are literally dozens of gaming forums on the Internet

Pretty much, yeah.

But Codex is almost unique because here the moderators believe in true freedom of speech, so you cant be a snowflake here

Eh, that isn't that rare either. Most oldschool internet culture is pretty heavily pro-free speech and doesn't give a fuck about people giving each other shit or swearing. It's true that a lot of newer internet forums have been shit and a number of older forums have gone to shit, but there are still plenty of oldschool forums that largely don't give a fuck.

 

[Falksi]

Fucking storyfags

 

[Harthwain]

That feels like the kind of shit take a videogame journalist would write where they obviously haven't played Planescape Torment. Kind of like comparing every remotely difficult game under the sun to Dark Souls.

Why?

The claim that Disco Elysium is the current generation's Planescape: Torment is not at all unfounded in my opinion, because I had similar thoughts when wondering what game I could compare it to.

Memory loss and figuring out what the hell is going on - check. Dealing with your own mess from before - check. Strange universe to explore - check. Heavy focus on writing and metaphysical themes - check. Both are based off tabletop RPGs (one being official one, the other being a homebrew stuff) and have a lot of related mechanics - check. Unique companions - check.

Do you have any examples of people actually arguing this shit?

Just type in "disco elysium planescape torment" in Google (you will get plenty of results from reddit) or read Steam reviews?

Spoiler

I'm 44 and I haven't made very much room in my life for games. Work, continuing education, and my hobbies take up most of my free time. Still, I never forgot a game called Planescape: Torment that I played back in the late 1990s. I purchased the Enhanced Edition of PST a while ago and played through it again, it was for the most part as wonderful as I remember it being.

There was a game released a year or two ago called Torment: Tides of Numenera. It was billed as a spiritual sequel to PST, and I found the setting and the characters to be lacking. Distant. Alien for the sake of being alien. The writing was more flowery than it needed to be - it pulled punches when it should have gone for the knock out. I didn't find it to be a complete wash and I played through about 70 percent of it, which is quite good for me because as I've mentioned I don't make very much room in my life for media consumption.

I've only played Disco Elysium for a few nights and I can say that this is *it*. This is the spiritual successor to PST and I've found the writing to be so engaging that I actually considered skipping work on Thursday in order to stay home and play the game.

If it came down to a choice between having all of the games currently on my desktop available to me, or having only Disco Elysium available to me, I'd select DE. That feeling of course will probably change when I finish the game, or it might take another playthrough or two, but for now it's brightened my little corner of existence.

Games currently on my desktop:

- The Witcher 3
- Mutant Year Zero
- NieR Automata
- Deus Ex Mankind Divided
- Borderlands 2
- Star Wars Battlefront 2
- Life is Strange
- DiRT Rally
- Kingdom Come Deliverance
- Aporia Beyond the Valley
- Legrand Legacy

Source: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198370507452/recommended/632470/

Spoiler

Easily one of the best RPGs of all time, but also literary gold. This game is on par with some of the best games I’ve played, and also, some of the best books I've read. The game is currently hailed as the spiritual successor to the cult classic, Planescape: Torment, and for good reason, but I would go as far as to say Disco is superior. People tend to compare games like Disco and Planescape to books, and I agree, but Disco embraces it’s own literature much more than its precursor, and diverges in a big way from most RPGs, in deciding to cut the fat by omitting the presence of traditional RPG combat. This is an ambitious idea for a cRPG, and it might be a turn off for some players, but I think it pays off well, because the result of this decision is a breath of fresh air. It stands out as a completely unique and refreshing experience in a genre where the player mowing down thousands of their enemies and proceeding to take their loot is the norm (nothing wrong with those games). That’s not to say the game is devoid of confrontation or violence, because there is plenty of that, it’s just done through text and skill checks, and it’s done really well. If you’ve ever read a book and you get to an intense, heart-pounding moment, and you’re reading as fast as you can, frantically flipping the pages to reach the outcome of a high-stakes situation, you will understand that the lack of traditional “combat” in Disco doesn’t mean the game is a sit back and relax experience, the game is full of tension, and at many points the story will have you sitting on the edge of your seat, hoping that you pass your next skill check, scared, excited, happy or sad, angry or satisfied, but ultimately, engaged.

The effort that was put into the worldbuilding and authenticity of each individual character, but also the authenticity of the player character and his partner, Kim, is where the game is the strongest, and it leads to a sense of immersion I have never felt in a text driven game. Each character is incredibly unique and they all have their own perspective on the world around them. This is the best way to learn about the world of Disco, by listening to the varying opinions of the citizens of Revachol, and it mirrors real life in many ways, because most of the opinions we form are based on people, the opinions they hold, and the things they say, do, or write. You are rarely being hand fed information about the world, to learn about it requires you to ask questions. Every character you meet lies on a broad political spectrum, from far-left, far-right, to the moderate, middling, fence-sitter. What makes this even better is that you can mold your player character to lie anywhere on this spectrum as well. This is an example of choice that most modern RPGs lack, and the result gives complexity to the player character. The player’s skills are also more than meets the eye, and I would also go as far as to categorize the player’s skills as characters. Your skills will constantly talk to you, building lore, arguing with each other, and breaking down complex ideas. This makes it easier to determine who you want your character to be, and however wild the dialogue option might be, it will rarely feel out of place, due to the wild storm of thoughts that rages on inside the mind of the player character. In this way, Disco is different from other RPGs, not with the ludicrous and radical things you have the choice to say, but to think. I’ve seen plenty of crazy dialogue options, but never before have I seen in an RPG a first person perspective into the mind of the player character, while also allowing the freedom to choose what your character thinks. It’s an ambitious step that results in even more depth when it comes to building your character.

For a genre that has its roots in fantasy, Disco is extremely loyal to what makes an RPG an RPG, without submitting to the fantasy genre the way most RPG’s do. I love fantasy, but I think Disco’s world is so refreshing because of how similar it is to our world. Revachol has an incredibly rich and depressing history, and the people that live there are downtrodden and socioeconomically stunted, and it isn’t because a dragon burned their crops and ate their livestock, it's due to a long chain of historical events, paired with the fact that the people in charge of the city want it that way. RPGs rarely tend to hit this close to home, and that's what makes the game so refreshing. Sure, the game can be fantastical at times, but nothing far from the realm of reality. Most of the time, the game chooses to portray a gritty reality, with real life roots, historical and modern, and the game is better off for it.

The story puts you in the shoes of an amnesiac detective, with little knowledge of the world or his past. His story is profoundly interesting and heartbreaking, it will make you contemplate decisions you’ve made in real life, but at the same time, manages to be incredibly funny, uplifting and motivational. The main character’s story, the story of the case, and the story of Revachol are all intertwined into an impressive triple narrative. The case will leave you with your head spinning, it’s very unpredictable, and you will constantly be throwing your predictions out the window until you really enter the mindset of this fictional detective, and only then the case unfolds in an incredibly climactic way. The scale of the case, the twists, turns, and lies, is masterfully done, and attempting to solve it with your crime-bro Kim is one of the most gratifying experiences in gaming. Each side quest is amazing, and crafted with care, so I would recommend doing every single one.

The relationship between the player character and his partner is one of the most compelling relationships in any piece of entertainment that I’ve consumed. It rivals, and even exceeds some of the relationships between the player character and companions in BioWare’s old games (the good ones), which are considered to be the gold standard for companions. The game also gives you the choice of turning your relationship with Kim into a trainwreck, and it’s choices like those that define Disco, in a genre where player choice is being strangled to death by the current trend of RPGs. Don’t expect 100 different endings though, Disco aims to tell a story, and it delivers, it’s mainly the experiences you undergo throughout the journey where choice is the strongest.

The game is quite heavy on the reading side, but if you are intimidated by it you should understand that the way the text is fed to you is incredibly accommodating, and that’s due to the way your skills summarize complex ideas. Digesting a complex political, historical, economic, or philosophical concept is made easy by your skills, they will break down everything to the point where I believe anyone can play this game and enjoy it, you don’t need to be a part of a book club or own a library card to understand the concepts the game throws at you.

The soundtrack is phenomenal. The melodies you will hear range from melancholic and sorrowful that will immerse you in the world and story, to hardcore bass fueled “nightclub” music that will help you understand the taste in music some characters have, to showdown music pulled straight from a western.

All of these amazing aspects culminate in the best detective-fiction I have ever experienced, some of the best worldbuilding and characters I have ever witnessed, and one of my most memorable adventures in gaming. I think there are too many things this game does well for someone not to enjoy it, and the experience is also very streamlined for a cRPG. I previously said that it’s one of the best RPG’s of all time, but I honestly think the game transcends not only the RPG genre as a whole, but video games as well. Disco Elysium is art, in its purest, most genuine form, and stands as one of the most beautiful and defining experiences of my life.

Source: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198055476222/recommended/632470/

Spoiler

Full review here: http://indiannoob.in/disco-elysium-review-investigations-in-a-dying-culture/

Is Disco Elysium the best RPG of all time? That's very subjective. But I can surely say that it's the best RPG of it's kind since Planescape: Torment (you'll be hearing this a lot more).

Since I've mentioned Torment here, there is no need to explain what kind of an RPG Disco Elysium is.
If you're a person who doesn't enjoy reading extremely detailed walls of text frequently for 10+ minutes at a time, then this is not the right RPG for you.
If it's combat you look forward to the most, then this is not the right RPG for you.
You're still here? Good. Disco Elysium is many things. It's part tense detective drama, part goofy buddy cop fiction, part Existential Crisis-The Game, part self-discovery book, part disturbing Irvine Welsh novel all in one.
Other than that, it's really hard to explain how weird and uncanny Disco Elysium truly is.

+ The super-detailed writing, unique retro setting and suspenseful story
+ Dialogue simulator
+ The 'ol amnesiac trope but pulled off well
+ Role play as either drunk cop, bad cop, slightly good cop, druggie cop, hobo cop, butthole cop, superstar cop or even apocalyptic cop
+ Punch a junkie kid in the face, scream I AM THE LAW in the face of the elderly, lick alcohol off a desk, steal THE shoes off a dead body
+ Drink yourself to death, cry in front of a mob boss, have the aforementioned junkie kid make you his lil' bish,
+ Substance abuse- lots and lots of substance abuse
+ Engage in discussions with the multitude of voices in your head
+ 24 unique skills, each having its own use
+ Develop upto 16 unique thoughts in your head per playthrough to further define your character. Become a feminist and ask people if they have a phallus in their ear.
+ Skillchecks, skillchecks everywhere
+ Despite the heavy dialogue-driven gameplay, the character models are well animated
+ Beautiful, painting like visuals
+ Amazing soundtrack

-Abrupt ending
- No traditional combat system. All combat encounters take place through dialogues and skill checks. Not really a con but can be a turn off to some
- Fixed character like in Torment (But you modify his attributes, skills, can shape his personality and decide how the world percieves you)
- The story-driven nature of the game results in the player not having the freedom to do things other RPGs offer (like beat the living ♥♥♥♥ out of random NPCs)
- Not a challenging game at the slightest
- The game is not really 'open world' in the traditional sense
- Time moves forward when you talk to people/take part in scripted events (Simply walking around doesn't count). Though you get plenty of time to talk to people and explore before a day ends, timed stuff annoys the hell out of me.
- Some of the load times are kind of long even on an SSD
- Cannot pan the camera or change movement controls (Double clicking to run all the time becomes tiring)
- Sometimes the pathfinding is iffy
- Need the ability to customize UI elements

Simply one of the best RPG I've played in recent times (and I've played a lot). Do note that Disco Elysium will only appeal to a certain RPG crowd (those that aren't turned off by text-driven narrative)
Also remember to turn off the political side of your brain before taking the plunge. Disco Elysium is a self-conscious game that may or may not offend some of your beliefs. But it's all in good spirits.

Source: https://steamcommunity.com/id/jaysykes47/recommended/632470/

 

[rusty_shackleford]

DE is in fact a kotor-like, we've been interpreting it all wrong this entire time!

Memory loss and figuring out what the hell is going on - check. Dealing with your own mess from before - check. Strange universe to explore - check. Heavy focus on writing and metaphysical themes - check. Both are based off tabletop RPGs (one being official one, the other being a homebrew stuff) and have a lot of related mechanics - check. Unique companions - check.

Someone must make a thread comparing DE to Kotor!

 

[Absinthe]

Steam reviews and reddit, two of the biggest corners of the internet to watch people post shit takes shilling games they like. Well, apparently there are a number of idiots who believe this sort of thing.

Seriously though, there are massive differences between the two.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Seriously though, there are massive differences between the two.

Yes, because it's clearly a kotor-like. The PST shit is just a red herring.

 

[Stoned Ape]

Personally, I think it's now safe to say internet porn is better than actual sex.

Porn has to be among the first experiences to really outdo fucking thanks largely to the fantastic titties on display. The way I see it, it used the foundations built by sex in the past to finally step above it's predecessors and become something unique unto itself.
While sex is still good, it's age has caught up to it and allowed VR porn to use it as a stepping stone to reach new heightens. It feels that we've reach a point where Pornhub will slowly began to outdo sex, and lead the way for a new generation of internet porno producers who have a better understanding of the medium than people with real partners have.

It's akin to The Beatles improving upon the sound of the Beach Boys to create something entirely new. In this case, internet porn is The Beatles improving upon the ideas brought up by the Beach Boys (people fucking); both very good, but one is so clearly better than the other that it becomes hard to ignore.

What do yall think?

 

[NJClaw]

I still haven't seen a satisfying explanation of how is it possible for Planescape: Torment to have the worst combat and dungeons in any RPG ever while still being Codex's top RPG of all times.

And if combat is so important, the single combat encounter in Disco Elysium is better than all the trash mobs you have to cleave through in P:T.

Combat is like sex, it doesn’t have to be good, but it separates sex-havers from virgins.

(rpg/non-rpg)

Lately I’ve mostly played non-rpgs.

If combat is like sex, why do I want it to be over as soon as possible every time I replay P:T? I'd expect to think about naked grandmas and Kruno to make it last as long as I can.

 

[Pink Eye]

why do I want it to be over as soon as possible every time I replay P:T?

Cause you tap out too early and aren't able to enjoy it. Next time. Go slow and easy.

 

[Kev Inkline]

I still haven't seen a satisfying explanation of how is it possible for Planescape: Torment to have the worst combat and dungeons in any RPG ever while still being Codex's top RPG of all times.

And if combat is so important, the single combat encounter in Disco Elysium is better than all the trash mobs you have to cleave through in P:T.

Combat is like sex, it doesn’t have to be good, but it separates sex-havers from virgins.

(rpg/non-rpg)

Lately I’ve mostly played non-rpgs.

If combat is like sex, why do I want it to be over as soon as possible every time I replay P:T? I'd expect to think about naked grandmas and Kruno to make it last as long as I can.

You’re married to the genre, that’s why.

 

[Harthwain]

Steam reviews and reddit, two of the biggest corners of the internet to watch people post shit takes shilling games they like. Well, apparently there are a number of idiots who believe this sort of thing.

Seriously though, there are massive differences between the two.

You asked for examples sharing a particular view outside of gaming journalists, so I gave them to you. My task here is done.

 

[Lim-Dûl]

Bruce, are you fucking retarded? There's a link on page 2 pointing to a 4chan /lit/ thread where you see OP deciding to troll the Codex with a hot take. Here's the thread. Not to mention that comparing Disco Elysium to Planescape Torment is extremely fucking dubious, since it indicates you've played classic cRPGs and yet still have the shit taste of someone who's only played the new shit.

Okay I didnt know about that 4chan link, that definitely makes his post questionable

Well its still been a good debate

yeat_keef is there anything you want to add about the 4chan link? Because it seems you are a troll ?

I used the word bait because that's how making threads work on 4chan work. Long form, well thought out OPs get no attention whatsoever. You HAVE to apply at least a little bait to get attention there. Usually its nude girls, incendiary posts, playing dumb, or beating some FOTM controversy to death.

Anyone who posts there knows it true, which is why I'm shocked this thread has so many responses.

The OP is shameless zero substance bait and you know it.

 

[Absinthe]

Steam reviews and reddit, two of the biggest corners of the internet to watch people post shit takes shilling games they like. Well, apparently there are a number of idiots who believe this sort of thing.

Seriously though, there are massive differences between the two.

You asked for examples sharing a particular view outside of gaming journalists, so I gave them to you. My task here is done.

Fair enough, I suppose. But man, those are some major idiots.

The OP is shameless zero substance bait and you know it.

He's just doing damage control.

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

I said i dont understand why he's demonizing communists in this thread for RPG discussion. I'm not suggesting he should be a communist sympathizer. It's just very weird to bring politics into this thread when it was totally unwarranted and unasked for.

Also, It's naive to suggest Communism is the cause of the most deaths in history. It's totally blind to so many ills in history and the harms capitalism have brought to the world, especially in third world nations. Regardless, I'm not interested in digging into political ideology since it doesn't seem like some of you guys know much about it and this isn't place for it anyways.

This is an exceptionally stupid statement.

Unfettered capitalism can lead to issues - ala child labor, etc - but the entire modern world exists because of capitalism. The mass production of food, medicine, technology - none of this exists without capitalism providing the impetus. All those innovations have led to dramatic increases in life expectancy, quality of life, etc, that wouldn't have existed without capitalism. Arguing that Capitalism brought ills and harms to third world nations is an especially stupid emotional argument because it presupposes that before capitalism and colonialism came to these countries people were living in idyllic communities that were ruined by the bad westerners - instead of hard scrabble worlds where they were dying from multitudes of diseases.

If you wanted to make an argument, as I've seen others in this thread make, that the system should be tempered with some form of socialism or government control, I wouldn't agree but at least it's a conversation worth having. But you clearly wouldn't want to make that argument, because -- judging by your "it doesn't seem like some of you guys know much about (political ideology)" comment and your tacit defense of Communism -- you're an idiot millennial who thinks Communism has any merit and that there is still a reasonable debate to be made about Communism vs. Capitalism - that the woes of Capitalism (OH NO ITS SO DEHUMANIZING AND COMMODIFYING) outweigh the killing fields of Cambodia - the starvation of Ukraine - the people's revolution, and on and on.

Also Disco Elysium is nakedly political on it's face, so to suggest that discussion of political ideology is unwarranted is retarded.

 

[Humbaba]

Capitalism is fucking gay

 

[Pink Eye]

I don't even care about this game. Just seeing a commie pussy get made a fool of is always fun.

 

[Humbaba]

Communism is also gay

 

[Harthwain]

Unfettered capitalism can lead to issues - ala child labor, etc - but the entire modern world exists because of capitalism. The mass production of food, medicine, technology - none of this exists without capitalism providing the impetus. All those innovations have led to dramatic increases in life expectancy, quality of life, etc, that wouldn't have existed without capitalism.

Capitalism is not responsible for this - science is. You can argue that capitalism provides the incentive for people to seek ways to get rich(er), but without science you wouldn't get very far. Just look at how people were doing in the antiquity.

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

The basic problem with Disco Elysium is that it fails to be a RPG. While it nominally flirts with things like stats, gear, skills, thought cabinet, etcetera, in reality all of it just boils down to skill modifiers with one or two minute divergences. Moreover, all the skills are pretty much cosmetic. They affect the flavor of dialogues you get along the way, but there are no obstacles to progression that demand player or character skill to progress. So in the first case, as a RPG it is a failure. The character development system of Disco: Elysium is simply cosmetic, pretending at much greater depth and consequence than it actually possesses....

I've played Disco's opening hour or so about three-four times before settling on a character build I liked, and this is false.

Within that time frame, your skill choices directly affect if you are able to:

Talk the hotel owner down drastically in the price of the room (different skill levels/decisions can lead from it being 130, to 100, to 30, etc). - this is an absolute obstacle to progression, because if you don't come up with the cash in that first day you lose the game.

Punch Cuno, thereby earning his respect, or flub the punch/talk with him and make him think you're a little bitch - at which point you've directly locked out content as well as progression on the questline.

Those are the two biggest ones I remember offhand.

I can go one step further and say that as a game it is also a failure. Games require gameplay challenges, but in Disco: Elysium there is no real form of challenge. Progress is guaranteed. Some people assert that DE is more appropriate as an Adventure game, but it fails to be part of the Adventure game genre also, because Adventure games have problem-solving challenges. There is no hard "game over" state in Adventures, but there are puzzles and the like and if you fail to figure out how to move past your current predicament you are stuck there, so the challenge is there and your failure state is an inability to progress. DE does not do this much either.

Again, not what I saw - there were multiple moments in game where I had to, for lack of a better word, grind up my skills to pass a check and move on with the story. Forward progress was not always guaranteed, and having seen wiki's and other sources after beating the game, there's content I missed as a direct result of my skill choices. Also you never play Sierra adventure games?

But the narrative of Disco Elysium also has its issues. First, it pretends to be a detective story, but it isn't, not really. The detective aspect is at most used as a vehicle to get the protagonist through the story beats, but actual detective-work is pretty much unnecessary and it doesn't follow the rules of fair detective stories either. In detective stories, the reader (or player, in this case) is supposed to be able to puzzle out the culprit on their own (This is part of the appeal of the genre: Trying to puzzle out who the culprit is as you read the story, which only appeals if puzzling out the culprit ahead of time is actually possible.), but here that constitutes a problem since the narrative cannot allow for you to discover the culprit early and resolve the game early. Therefore, most of the detective work you do is totally useless and any attempt at saying "This is our culprit!" before the ending is an automatic failure.

This is true, and a fair criticism - the detective aspect is oversold, and there is no possibility you could ever figure out the culprit because he isn't introduced until the last second.

This on another major problem with Disco Elysium: It is a very linear tale in the end. There is a bunch of totally optional content, and you might be able to cut through a part of the plot (iirc there's a Shivers check for that?) but on the whole of it, the narrative is predetermined for you. You cannot meaningfully chart your own path through the game or take a different road. Most choices pretend to be of more consequence than they actually are. Hit on the first girl you see? Okay, if you fail, your fuck-up makes sense. But if you succeed at the skillcheck? You still basically fail. Apparently the situation only allowed for one outcome, with a slight difference in the cosmetics of it. If you decide to be a hobo cop, you are still not permitted to actually live homeless. You have to take the rooms the game offers you. There is tons of shit like this, and that's just the minor stuff, where it hints at branching but doesn't deliver. The central plot is basically indifferent to your efforts.

Well, you can sleep in a dumpster, so you can actually be a hobo - but still, the central plot of most RPG's is the same regardless. What RPG allows for meaningful alteration of the central story throughout? Fallout 1 you're still always going to have to find the water chip - you're always going to have to find the master. How you handle those plot points is where the choices play out, but the basic plot isn't going to change.

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

Unfettered capitalism can lead to issues - ala child labor, etc - but the entire modern world exists because of capitalism. The mass production of food, medicine, technology - none of this exists without capitalism providing the impetus. All those innovations have led to dramatic increases in life expectancy, quality of life, etc, that wouldn't have existed without capitalism.

Capitalism is not responsible for this - science is. You can argue that capitalism provides the incentive for people to seek ways to get rich(er), but without science you wouldn't get very far. Just look at how people were doing in the antiquity.

Capitalism absolutely is responsible for this. Science was the means but capitalism was the engine. Without proper incentive people as a whole aren't going to try to innovate, itterate, etc.

Look at the progression of science pre and post capitalism. Sure some people would always seek out knowledge for the sake of knowledge, and others would seek to create new technology for the good of mankind out of pure altruism, but the majority of people won't - they need incentive.

Further, Capitalism provides the incentive for one of the largest drivers of technological advancement - iteration. Without the incentive of profit, there's no reason to try to build a better mouse trap if the current mouse trap does the job.

 

[Harthwain]

Capitalism absolutely is responsible for this. Science was the means but capitalism was the engine. Without proper incentive people as a whole aren't going to try to innovate, itterate, etc.

Sure, but the desire to be rich is universal. You don't need capitalism (as a specific ideology) for that to work. This is why I brought up the antiquity example - back then people wanted to get rich too, they simply didn't have the means that were available later on, so the claim that the entire modern world exists because of capitalism is giving capitalism way too much credit in my opinion, because if we had science and no capitalism then we'd still have people willing to profit one way or another. There were also other reasons for advancement in any given field than purely financial gain, like developing new ways to kill each other (steel, crossbow, gunpowder, etc.) or teaching people how to read (advertisement, propaganda, etc.).

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

Capitalism absolutely is responsible for this. Science was the means but capitalism was the engine. Without proper incentive people as a whole aren't going to try to innovate, itterate, etc.

Sure, but the desire to be rich is universal. You don't need capitalism (as a specific ideology) for that to work. This is why I brought up the antiquity example - back then people wanted to get rich too, they simply didn't have the means that were available later on, so the claim that the entire modern world exists because of capitalism is giving capitalism way too much credit in my opinion, because if we had science and no capitalism then we'd still have people willing to profit one way or another. There were also other reasons for advancement in any given field than purely financial gain, like developing new ways to kill each other (steel, crossbow, gunpoweder, etc.) or teaching people how to read (advertisement, propaganda, etc.).

Sure people have always wanted to be rich, but the point is that the innovation of new ideas and technologies didn't lead to getting rich, so there was no incentive to doing so.

Wealth in antiquity came from owning land and slaves. People weren't developing innovative technology unless the need was clear and there, at which point it was generally coming from one source - the government, army, etc - rather then the masses. Whoever invented the aqueduct as part of the Roman legions didn't get shit for doing it.

 

[BruceVC]

Unfettered capitalism can lead to issues - ala child labor, etc - but the entire modern world exists because of capitalism. The mass production of food, medicine, technology - none of this exists without capitalism providing the impetus. All those innovations have led to dramatic increases in life expectancy, quality of life, etc, that wouldn't have existed without capitalism.

Capitalism is not responsible for this - science is. You can argue that capitalism provides the incentive for people to seek ways to get rich(er), but without science you wouldn't get very far. Just look at how people were doing in the antiquity.

Capitalism absolutely is responsible for this. Science was the means but capitalism was the engine. Without proper incentive people as a whole aren't going to try to innovate, itterate, etc.

Look at the progression of science pre and post capitalism. Sure some people would always seek out knowledge for the sake of knowledge, and others would seek to create new technology for the good of mankind out of pure altruism, but the majority of people won't - they need incentive.

Further, Capitalism provides the incentive for one of the largest drivers of technological advancement - iteration. Without the incentive of profit, there's no reason to try to build a better mouse trap if the current mouse trap does the job.

I agree with basically everything you saying

One of the reasons Communism failed was because the USSR was bankrupt and this was because the economic model of USSR was deeply flawed and its because its proven the best way to motivate human beings is to incentive them as you mentioned. In a Capitalist system this translates to things like working towards a bonus or getting commission and profitability is also part of that

That doesnt mean its about profitability at the expense of things like workers rights but thats why you have labor laws. But profitability is critical to ensure sustainability and growth and its what investors expect when they buy shares, who buys shares if they dont increase in value and share price increase is aligned to any listed company making its target. So we must never think of profitability as a bad thing

If you read the Communist manifesto it comes across as a well meaning but unrealistic model of how economies work and its because it was created by people who lived and suffered under the corruption of Tsarist Russia and old Russia before Communism was truly an unequal society where there were rigid class structures and no way for the poor to change that.

Capitalism is not perfect but its been proven to be the most effective and enduring economic system in the world and does allow people to change their financial status and its immeasurably better than the quality of life that Communism and old school socialism creates for most people

 

[Drop Duck]

Unfettered capitalism can lead to issues - ala child labor, etc

Give me one good reason why child labor is an issue and not an opportunity for children to become economically independent and gain work experience.