Turn-Based Tactics Phantom Doctrine - "tactical Cold War conspiracy thriller" by Hard West devs

[rusty_shackleford]

Is there a way to get the 4th intel in the first mission without triggering the alarm?

 

[ArchAngel]

How many spy novels and conspiracy theories did you guys read in preparation for this game?
I love how the intel stuff is full of that stuff (Star Wars program, using Indigo children parents as fools and other stuff) and it is funny

 

[Infinitron]

I'd patch the actor perk out though - disguises that cannot be blown are super op.

Good point, but I have no clue how to do this, given it just changes one boolean value; not much room for scaling here. Unless we make it more rare, but it still doesn't change anything in the way it works.

Can you instead make it so it merely adds a range of detection, so as long as you're out of a specified tile range, you're okay, but get too close and you're compromised.

Ok, this is actually a solid fix. Thanks!

no tension

Ok, this is valid. Will figure it out and fix.

Is this sarcasm or what

You designed a pretty unusual system here, did you not invest any thought into the implications? Was it all just "let's make something WEIRD AND DIFFERENT"?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I'd patch the actor perk out though - disguises that cannot be blown are super op.

Good point, but I have no clue how to do this, given it just changes one boolean value; not much room for scaling here. Unless we make it more rare, but it still doesn't change anything in the way it works.

Can you instead make it so it merely adds a range of detection, so as long as you're out of a specified tile range, you're okay, but get too close and you're compromised.

Ok, this is actually a solid fix. Thanks!

no tension

Ok, this is valid. Will figure it out and fix.

Is this sarcasm or what

You designed a pretty unusual system here, did you not invest any thought into the implications? Was it all just "let's make something WEIRD AND DIFFERENT"?

That, or it's just being built upon Hard West.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I mean, Kacper Szymczak you really oughta have played Silent Storm.

 

[Jinn]

Is this sarcasm or what

You designed a pretty unusual system here, did you not invest any thought into the implications? Was it all just "let's make something WEIRD AND DIFFERENT"?

The thing is that there is plenty of tension in the combat, but instead of it being based on the random possibility of being hit or not, it's based on player agency: studying the enemy's movements, staking out the mission area a bit before you run in, waiting for the right moment to make your move, neutralizing the target so they aren't a threat, using the many tools at your disposal to nullify or weaken that attack, using the environment to your advantage, or just having enough awareness built up to take that fateful moment of running in front of three enemies that are overwatching and hoping for the best. I've dropped right in front of an enemy when my agent's health was low to get to an evac point, and survived the overwatch because of above elements, including the added factor of the remaining awareness of the enemy in question.

Buying a non-RNG game, knowing you're buying a non-RNG game, then getting upset that it lacks RNG is beyond irrational. That's the majority of the complaints I've been seeing. Yes, it's a different and strange system, but it makes perfect sense in the context of the game and its surrounding mechanics. So in the end, you have a lot of people upset that it's not the nuXCOM style game they expected it to be. It's a game much closer at heart to Invisible Inc. - minus the more puzzle-based elements - which is very much so a good thing.

The "detective" stuff you do is disappointing too. You just have to mark words, and don't worry if you don't see all the specific words you need in the text document, just click on everything and there you go.

While I agree there is little challenge in the cork-board investigations, I think they serve more as a narrative device than anything else. The fun in it comes when you the player starts to recognize the codenames for people and locations and start to piece everything together. While it could have used a little more depth, I love it as a form of gameplay based storytelling that relies on the attention of the player, rather than exposition being spoonfed to them.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I'd say any review that says you gotta be luck reliant is in dire need of a purge: https://amp.theguardian.com/games/2018/aug/15/phantom-doctrine-review-spy-game

 

[Stavrophore]

So far the game is a little barebone. Looks like it was build with DLCs in mind.

 

[ArchAngel]

I'd patch the actor perk out though - disguises that cannot be blown are super op.

Good point, but I have no clue how to do this, given it just changes one boolean value; not much room for scaling here. Unless we make it more rare, but it still doesn't change anything in the way it works.

Can you instead make it so it merely adds a range of detection, so as long as you're out of a specified tile range, you're okay, but get too close and you're compromised.

Ok, this is actually a solid fix. Thanks!

no tension

Ok, this is valid. Will figure it out and fix.

Is this sarcasm or what

You designed a pretty unusual system here, did you not invest any thought into the implications? Was it all just "let's make something WEIRD AND DIFFERENT"?

Maybe he is just drunk after their release party yesterday :D (I am sure they had one, they are from East Europe).

 

[Jinn]

So far the game is a little barebone.

What do you mean by barebone? All I've seen in about 8 hours of play is tons of content coming from all directions. A particularly impressive amount at that, considering the game was only in development for 2.5 years.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I have no idea why people experiment with weird gameplay without getting down the fundamentals. Especially since with tactical game fundamentals are everything.

 

[azimuth]

Yeah, pretty disappointed tbh. Too samey on the whole with too many "kill/capture (generic) enemy agent" missions.

I feel like the game is missing an axis by which to mix things up. For example, in Invisible Inc, mission variety is achieved via three axes: faction (corp) x mission type x alert level (enemy types). In this, you just have "mission type," and those missions are not very interesting. You could have at least added, e.g., dynamic sabotage missions, covert tailing missions (follow and record/eavesdrop but don't get spotted), steal-the-awesome-tech missions, etc.

XCOM 2: WOTC has lots of mission types x difficulty (alien types) x SitReps x Chosen to mix things up.

Anyway, I can think of about 10 other ways to make this game better. It should have simply stolen Covert Action's dynamic plot system and (dynamically) built the tactical missions around that. There should be an overall goal that several enemy agents are pursuing (outside or subordinate to the main plot), with several different mission types. The Intel Board should be used to figure out what each agent's role is and how it fits into the overall dynamic plot. (NOT story plot!!) Enemy agents should have specific roles in a larger (dynamic!) plot, like "fixer," "thief," "organizer," "courier," etc. Play Covert Action to see what I mean.

Enemy agents should be way more interesting and distinctive. You want the player developing nemeses. If you take them out at low levels, fine, but some should dynamically grow into real distinct presences in the gameworld with intriguing abilities.

I was hoping this game might be on the order of Invisible Inc, Battle Brothers, or War of the Chosen, but it's not anywhere close right now. Sad!

 

[rusty_shackleford]

RNG is shit

 

[veevoir]

But then again enemy seem to have LOS from across the map through buildings and what not.

The LOS out of nowhere also annoys me, it is like if the enemy agents had no vision range limit - I am a map away from the nearest enemy, so how is he able to see & shoot me? It is not squadsight (I get they can target me if one has LOS, fair enough). So what gives?

My only guess would be that civilians provide "squadsight" LOS to the enemies... That would be shitty.

 

[Stavrophore]

So far the game is a little barebone.

What do you mean by barebone? All I've seen in about 8 hours of play is tons of content coming from all directions. A particularly impressive amount at that, considering the game was only in development for 2.5 years.

Tons of content? Repeatable missions, lack of items so far. The biggest offender is the pacing, i can 100% missions, but holy fucking hell it takes 30 turns to check the whole building, patrol routes, and then just use your covert agent to disable cameras, take loot, do the objective and escape.It would be fine if i was punished or in a hurry doing this, but i could just skip the turns to like 100 and nothing would happen. Its repetitive, and the pacing is really bad. There's also no urgency on the strategic map so far.I would like to be pressured to play better. XCOM 2 at least introduces harder enemies, avenger time limit, chosens hunting you. Here you just relocate to new base. There's no reason to go loud on the missions since stealth is super useful. The only time i have to go loud is when i need to kill a target that i cant incapacitate since he/she has higher health. There are no gadgets, time constrained locks, something that was even in real time splinter cell. Stats arent distinct, its hard to see how they affect anything. There's a lot of things that could be better or expanded. Sorry but XCOM 2 is much better experience, and with long war/better advent its miles ahead.


Edit: This of course not applies as much to ironman. The game should have also an option for bronzeman/semiironman where you cant save during mission and if you fail you can restart mission again and again. Right now with save system you can abuse the game quite easily

 

[azimuth]

Watch out for ironman - it seems to delete your save if you crash or quit without saving.

Also actor/disguise is really OP. Watching a streamer go through and chop literally everything right now. What's the point of all the weapons and grenades and weapon perks? Just chop everything!

 

[Jinn]

Repeatable missions,

I'll assume you mean repeating mission types, which is a valid complaint if it's true. In my playtime of the aforementioned 8 hours, I've only encountered one repeated mission type, which was the one where you attack an agent who's been tracking down your HQ. The mission type was the same, however the map, enemies, weapons they were using, and barriers, etc were all different. Pretty good for 8 hours into a game like this I think. Also, you are aware that there are 4 different mission type approaches to those situations where an agent is tracking your HQ, right? They are time sensitive and unlockable through agent skills and different buildable facilities. Maybe Kacper Szymczak can chime in on this one?

lack of items so far.

I have found multiple different and superior weapons, armor, and items in the equipment cabinets and briefcases found in most missions.

The biggest offender is the pacing, i can 100% missions, but holy fucking hell it takes 30 turns to check the whole building, patrol routes, and then just use your covert agent to disable cameras, take loot, do the objective and escape.It would be fine if i was punished or in a hurry doing this, but i could just skip the turns to like 100 and nothing would happen.

This would be more bothersome to me if it wasn't a tactical strategy game with stealth as a major focus. Stealth games are methodical and slow paced. It kind of comes with the territory. Though I do feel they should have added a speed up option of some sort.

There's also no urgency on the strategic map so far.I would like to be pressured to play better.

I haven't found this to be the case. I've slipped up a couple times, had to relocate HQ, and came extremely close to running out of viable places to relocate, and very close to running out of funds. Most things on the map will edge you closer to the tipping point, all the while you have to keep track of the heat accruing on your active agents.

As for stealth, I haven't gotten anywhere near it being too OP, but I don't doubt it does in late game. We'll see.

Honestly, your opinions are yours, but they leave me wondering what difficulty you were playing on, how much you might have been save scumming, and how long you've played the game for. I'm open to these opinions being close to on the mark critically, but I haven't seen any sign of them yet in my playthrough.

 

[Stavrophore]

Ive play on hard and yes ive save scum quite much, as its my first playthrough. Ive played 10 h so far total, and since my last post ive played few hours more. The missions are getting harder definitely, more agents, more guards, better armed. Lack of funds became an issue. There are few things i dont understand -when and how do i blow my cover? Seems like its hit or miss, sometimes i blow my cover and i have to spend 700 dollars to replace the identity, and sometimes not. Dont know what determine this. Second flanking damage i guess awareness is useless when you are flanked or you flank the enemy likewise? There's also a hard cap on killed enemies, normally you can kill one on each turn and nothing happens, but after some time, you will trigger the enemy agent searching for you. This also happens when you kill two on same turn. But how is this hard cap calculated? By how much enemies are on the map?This prevents you cleaning the map one by one.

I have found multiple different and superior weapons, armor, and items in the equipment cabinets and briefcases found in most missions

Well the item variety isnt that big, also you cant craft much items, only few grenades, lockpick. You unlock recipes as the game progresses, but its so slow. I was pissed off that i had specialization in pistol, i had the silencer, and i couldnt bought or find the pistol. Only after few days and few missions more i found it. Market is useless they dont sell anything, you find most of stuff on missions.

I'll assume you mean repeating mission types, which is a valid complaint if it's true. In my playtime of the aforementioned 8 hours, I've only encountered one repeated mission type, which was the one where you attack an agent who's been tracking down your HQ. The mission type was the same, however the map, enemies, weapons they were using, and barriers, etc were all different. Pretty good for 8 hours into a game like this I think. Also, you are aware that there are 4 different mission type approaches to those situations where an agent is tracking your HQ, right? They are time sensitive and unlockable through agent skills and different buildable facilities. Maybe Kacper Szymczak can chime in on this one?

Defuse bombs, kill enemy agent. These repeats quite often, sure the locations varies, but its more of the same. Spicing up things would be nice, beside adding enemy agent on different mission types. I was also surprised that defuse bomb didnt have timer, and doesnt make much sense, since we were defusing bomb in the enemy compound[??????].

This would be more bothersome to me if it wasn't a tactical strategy game with stealth as a major focus. Stealth games are methodical and slow paced. It kind of comes with the territory. Though I do feel they should have added a speed up option of some sort.

I mean you arent punished for staying too long on stealth even if you travel through the whole map few times, passing guards multiple times. You shouldnt be able to stealth through all the time, stealth should be something like -you go in the red zone, and then have 6-10 turns before your cover is blown, then you can use equipment like jamming comms, erasing camera feed and so on, to prolong this time. That would be really nice and tense, also shooty shooty actions should be focused on surgical strikes, and then exfiltrating. For example currently you could kill guards with loud weapons, and enemies magically would know that it was you who killed them, even when they didnt see you shooting the enemy. This system should be changed for disguise system, where a guard would need to close by to you to uncover you. Guards should cut off escape routes, and check ID to find the attackers, while a soldier teams would converge on the site of the shooting.

 

[Stavrophore]

Watch out for ironman - it seems to delete your save if you crash or quit without saving.

Also actor/disguise is really OP. Watching a streamer go through and chop literally everything right now. What's the point of all the weapons and grenades and weapon perks? Just chop everything!

Game like to lock your controls after you save, thats also a bug. And yeah ive just lost a bunch of saves because the game hanged...

 

[Zombra]

Chess sucks, I knew as soon as the enemy's turn started he was going to checkmate me.

EDIT: I love you Alienman

 

[Jinn]

Seems like its hit or miss, sometimes i blow my cover and i have to spend 700 dollars to replace the identity, and sometimes not.

This is something that could use explanation ingame, but is actually a really cool system. You can train agents at some point in certain languages and backgrounds. So if you send an agent to a German location to do recon, for example, train them in speaking German and their heat meter will rise much more slowly because they are blending in better Awesome detail, but yeah, needs to be explained more clearly.

 

[Stavrophore]

Seems like its hit or miss, sometimes i blow my cover and i have to spend 700 dollars to replace the identity, and sometimes not.

This is something that could use explaination ingame, but is actually a really cool system. You can train agents at some point in certain languages and backgrounds. So if you send an agent to a German location to do recon, for example, train them in speaking German and their heat meter will rise much more slowly because they are blending in better Awesome detail, but yeah, needs to be explained more clearly.

I completely forgot about this heat meter. And how do i train agents to use other languages?

 

[Jinn]

I completely forgot about this heat meter. And how do i train agents to use other languages?

I'm pretty sure you can do it when assigning new identities to your agents, but there might be a better/right way later in the game. I'd check now but I'm not around my PC.

 

[agentorange]

Game could use a demo.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

how do I speed up the combat? I have all the options under 'gameplay' ticked but it's still slow as fuck