KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[Mustawd]

What are people in the discord saying now about he game after the demo?

 

[PanteraNera]

That's very true. I really believe though that it's hard for developers to answer to criticism because honestly they are rarely the ones making the decisions.. Trying to argue about something you can't change and you have to support is very hard

Uhm, what? They do have no publisher, they are crowdfunded. Who makes the decision?

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

It's nothing new, really. But mind boggles how people still fall for that shit. And it's not like this one was particularly scammy, the game looked like nuXCOM clone from the start.

 

[PanteraNera]

What are people in the discord saying now about he game after the demo?

There are only fanbois.
Everyone who voices something critical doesn't stay there for long. Basically the opposite to the codex :D

 

[PanteraNera]

It's nothing new, really. But mind boggles how people still fall for that shit. And it's not like this one was particularly scammy, the game looked like nuXCOM clone from the start.

I was fabulous optimistic because Julian Gollop is the project leader.
But wasn't enough to actually bake it, I had my share of experiences with early-access and kickstarter games.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Well, using famous names to lure the gullible is definitely nothing new either.

Everything is shit.

 

[The Fish]

I'm done here.

Wait, you weren't even here long enough to see our delightful general discussion forum. Think of all the wonderful things you're missing out on.

 

[agris]

Assuming you're still reading this [...]

UnstableVoltage If you can handle the vitriol, you'll find there's a wealth of useful information here. One user even posted about the results of your poll - is it true that controllers were not an oft-requested feature? Just be straight up with us, talk about the UI and the concessions you are and aren't willing to make with the UI.

This isn't reddit, the people here are generally well-informed, have a memory, and will call out anything that seems like hypocrisy.

 

[PanteraNera]

agris
https://www.reddit.com/r/PhoenixPoint/comments/64yqnx/phoenix_point_survey_results/
http://www.sorcerers.net/community/threads/phoenix-point-survey-results.79775/

 

[UnstableVoltage]

UnstableVoltage If you can handle the vitriol, you'll find there's a wealth of useful information here. One user even posted about the results of your poll - is it true that controllers were not an oft-requested feature? Just be straight up with us, talk about the UI and the concessions you are and aren't willing to make with the UI.

This isn't reddit, the people here are generally well-informed, have a memory, and will call out anything that seems like hypocrisy.

I just feed-back the information I am given. The UI is nowhere near final. There are ongoing discussions within the design team about the best way the UI should be handled.

While the poll results did place controller support quite low, it was also a very small poll from a very specific subset of users. There is likely now much more feedback, and a bigger pool of numbers to draw from, which I am sure is being taken into account in some way, shape or form.

I'm sorry some of you feel that this game isn't shaping up to be the game *you* wanted. When I said that we can't please everyone, I wasn't suggesting that we were trying to. I was pointing out that whatever we do, some people are going to dislike the result.

 

[Jimmious]

That's very true. I really believe though that it's hard for developers to answer to criticism because honestly they are rarely the ones making the decisions.. Trying to argue about something you can't change and you have to support is very hard

Uhm, what? They do have no publisher, they are crowdfunded. Who makes the decision?

Probably Gollop? Or it was a team decision and it's over? Obviously not this man here I'd say anyway

 

[Jimmious]

UnstableVoltage there will always(and I emphasize always)be at least 3 people in here that will bash your game like there is no tomorrow. This is a fact. Don't focus on that and take the general comments into account because there are people in here that really know their stuff about games and systems etc

 

[Mustawd]

I'm sorry some of you feel that this game isn't shaping up to be the game *you* wanted. When I said that we can't please everyone, I wasn't suggesting that we were trying to. I was pointing out that whatever we do, some people are going to dislike the result.

For one, we're voicing our opinions. If I was a dev, I'd rather have that than some echo chamber. Second, it is frustrating to see yet another developer promise a PC centric game, and then, when funded, start to back away from that promise or ideal. As people have pointed out, XCOM 2 was released a lot more PC centric than XCOM 1 was. And it benefited immensely because of that. Same goes for the Shadowrun games. Ditto again for Larian.

I just feed-back the information I am given. The UI is nowhere near final. There are ongoing discussions within the design team about the best way the UI should be handled.

OK then. If you'd like to give feedback tell them we don't like radial menus for a PC game. Most PC users do not.

Look, wanting to expand the game for consoles or controller sis fine. Really. Larian did it, and it didn't really affect their PC game UI from what i've seen. However, compromising the PC experience is just a non starter for a lot of PC users. Make everything a radial menu if you want. Just allow me the option to have a PC focused UI if I want. That's really all we're saying. It doesn't HAVE to be just PC or bust. IF it's done right that is.

 

[Zombra]

I'm done here.

Don't bail out. If you have nothing more to say about controller support, simply drop the issue and talk about other things. We'll burn out complaining about it sooner or later, particularly if you give us other things to talk about. To be blunt, you've been OK with ignoring certain questions before. Don't let strong opinions on one issue scare you off now.

Having said that, I do have 2¢ to throw in about controller centric design.

Ask inXile about their console sales numbers for Wasteland 2 and Torment Numenera, then decide if it's a deep enough gold mine to make it worth tarnishing your game's image. Friendly advice.

We were hoping you guys were shooting for "critically acclaimed masterpiece", not "sold a lot of units to casuals". You can't please everybody, but of the two, which would you rather look back on later in your career? Which would Julian rather see, if he had to pick?

 

[ArchAngel]

At this point I would be happy if they add mouse over information to UI for PC K&B users. And a proper inventory that looks more like UFO then nuXcom with body slots and backpack slots. You can make so you need to use your move action to equip stuff from backpack but can use stuff directly from body slots (body slots are ammo packs, grenade holders and such, light sources or healing item slots).

 

[Mustawd]

We were hoping you guys were shooting for "critically acclaimed masterpiece", not "sold a lot of units to casuals". You can't please everybody, but of the two, which would you rather look back on later in your career? Which would Julian rather see, if he had to pick?

The crazy part is that it's not even an either one or another kind of thing. They can definitely have both. Either at release or after release (like Larian did). If the game is good people w2ill play it. BUt if you compromise the experience, it's difficult for people to look past that.

 

[Darth Roxor]

While the poll results did place controller support quite low, it was also a very small poll from a very specific subset of users. There is likely now much more feedback, and a bigger pool of numbers to draw from, which I am sure is being taken into account in some way, shape or form.

"you guys have served your purpose, we have no need for you anymore"

also, "there is likely now much more feedback, which surely is being taken into account somehow" makes the controller support sound like a super-informed and spot on decision

 

[Jaedar]

That's very true. I really believe though that it's hard for developers to answer to criticism because honestly they are rarely the ones making the decisions.. Trying to argue about something you can't change and you have to support is very hard

Uhm, what? They do have no publisher, they are crowdfunded. Who makes the decision?

Probably Gollop? Or it was a team decision and it's over? Obviously not this man here I'd say anyway

I think it is very optimistic to believe they're only using personal+backer money. There are surely external stakeholders as well. The decision to have controllers might come from someone inside the team (I suspect that in a small team with creative people, you sometimes have to make some concessions to keep people passionate), more likely it came from some manager who believes having console support is essential for some (probably misinformed) reason.

And yeah, I suspect it is exceptionally taxing to defend, in public, decisions you don't agree with. That is what a community manager is paid for I suppose.

While the poll results did place controller support quite low, it was also a very small poll from a very specific subset of users. There is likely now much more feedback, and a bigger pool of numbers to draw from, which I am sure is being taken into account in some way, shape or form.

A small poll from the likely most dedicated and 'core'-est of the future players v large amount of ad-hoc feedback from random journos and con-goers who swung by.

Neither source is perfect of course, the first likely skews hardcore, the second skews hilariously much towards people who would probably never buy your game anyway.
Reminds of a thing the stardock CEO mentioned at some point: The most important thing is to try and only consider feedback from customers or people who are likely to become customers, and completely ignore everything else.

 

[Shog-goth]

Reminds of a thing the stardock CEO mentioned at some point: The most important thing is to try and only consider feedback from customers or people who are likely to become customers, and completely ignore everything else.

So right, I'm here because I care and already made my bet on Julian. Stay true to the survey, there lies the chances of success for PP and not in some passersby.

 

[Shog-goth]

I'm sorry some of you feel that this game isn't shaping up to be the game *you* wanted.

I'm sorry this game isn't shaping up to be the game *you* promised.

 

[UnstableVoltage]

I am more than happy to give any feedback (and questions) directly to Julian and the design team. I know they have visited this thread from time to time, so are aware of much that goes on here. However, certain members do themselves a disservice. While many questions and concerns are valid, the way they are voiced can potentially colour the way they are interpreted. Feedback presented (and questions asked) in a civil, non-hostile manner are far more likely to gain traction and attention.

I say this with the greatest respect - you guy are a tough crowd. You know what you want, and at least some of you seem completely unwilling to try something new. There have been more than a few posts in this thread along from regular members confirm how "edgy" this community can be. My concern is sometimes that tone may lead to feedback not being taken as seriously.

I notice a recent comment on one of our Facebook posts about controller support. I assume it is from someone present in this thread, as it is almost word for word what has been said here before. While the comment isn't quite accurate (it assumes we're adding controller support for console, when we're not even planning a console release), the tone of the comment is much more civil, and likely to gain serious attention.

For those on Facebook, there's an AMA with Julian on Friday at 1pm PST / 9pm GMT. Feel free to come along and pose your questions and concerns directly to him. Again, as long as they're asked in a civil way, they will get attention. If you prefer to ask anonymously, feel free to drop your questions in this Google form, and I will pass them directly to Julian. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...7Mf7VlHxu1ldLDlmjndqivdg/viewform?usp=sf_link

 

[Grotesque]

This friday, Mr. Gollop will stream and take questions so feel free to ask at the source for answers regarding the Ui subject.

UnstableVoltage
When you give your feedback to Gollop, please take into account also that Pheonix Point wants to be a pretty complex game:
- strategy layer - geoscape - manipulate time flow and globe rotation- select instances - missions - interceptions - select vehicles for transport - infiltrations- info display
- research trees- faction diplomacy/interaction - research feedback
- base construction - select buildings to construct - inspect base layout - info on buildings - tooltips
- tactical combat - soldier inventory - interact with fallen enemies/comrades & items - weapon loadouts and item manipulation - ammo management
(and I bet many more I miss out or I don't know anything about)

Wanting to design a quality UI to also be compatible with controllers during this stage is detrimental and way more expensive in costs and man hours trying to figure it out how to pull it off than designing for mouse only and even more expensive than designing a controller only UI afterwards if you have to reiterate time and time again to make a good hybrid.
The more complex the game, fewer the chances to have an UI that can incorporate the best of both worlds. It's almost like wanting to discover a perpetuum mobile/ get free energy from nothing.

The fiasco that was the kickstarter for the remake of System Shock should be fresh in every developer's mind and what can lead to when the goals are shifting and the focus is lost.
Also Torment's fiasco after it lost the goodwill of its core backers.

Focus means quality.

In success, anything is possible!

These are two quotes from this guy, Mitch Gitelman (producer of BATTLETECH funded via kickstarter), should be the mantra of every kickstarter funded developer.

My advice is to focus on a PC UI, make the best X-COM like game there ever was (in part also because of an exquisite UI) and after the game is successful and receives critical acclaim, port the game for consoles and design a proper UI for that kind of platform.

 

[Mustawd]

However, certain members do themselves a disservice. While many questions and concerns are valid, the way they are voiced can potentially colour the way they are interpreted. Feedback presented (and questions asked) in a civil, non-hostile manner are far more likely to gain traction and attention.

Fair enough, but that's this place. Regardless, I see your point.

I say this with the greatest respect - you guy are a tough crowd. You know what you want, and at least some of you seem completely unwilling to try something new.

Look man. I'm being honest here. The most liked devs are the ones who know when to ignore our bitching, can have a sense of humor about stuff, and realize some of our grumpiness comes from being very passionate about these games.

Not saying you should just take abuse (and god knows we've had threads like that in the past), but you also do your team a disservice by being easily offended at me saying "hey that's bullshit" or something equally unfiltered. After all, this is a relatively unmoderated forum, where we're very free to call something shit or someone an asshole, as long as it doesn't veer into something more abusive.

You might not know all of this, so just saying. And while we're being honest, the idea that something like radial menus are going to be the default because some unnamed people want it feels a lot like a slap to the face of fans who played x-com hundreds if not thousands of hours over the years and who just want to see Julian make a game in that vein, if not a total clone. SO yah, you're gonna get a lot of butthurt comments about controller support if it interfres with our PC experience. It is what it is.

 

[ArchAngel]

UnstableVoltage

All PCs have K&M. Steambox comes with Steam Controller that people use to play Civilization games that does not support console controllers. You absolutely don't need to design a interface for Xbox and PS4 controller for release if you are truthful about game being made for PC first.
Later when you earn money do another UI that is focused for those controllers and release the game on consoles.

 

[PanteraNera]

Honestly if there is valid constructive criticism ignored or not taken serious because someone says "fuck" a lot or calls something "bullshit", I have to call that bullshit :D.

Read this:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ex-enhanced-edition-directors-cut-2013.87048/

This forum has been mainly founded because most developers do not like it that you call a game or game elements crap. And honestly I think you lose more in ignoring valid critic, than we do if we are not heard. Because you try to sell a product and we (besides the dumbfucks that baked this already ) are potential customers.

Besides a small minority of mainstream Gamers (wtf are they doing here anyways?) most of the prestigious codex-members like the old times, the old games, the good stuff you know, so don't expect to get support here for mainstream NuSomething immersive shit, that's more of an insult than saying fuck, shit, dumbfuck at least in my books.