KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[PanteraNera]

That FAQ is very undefined and I can understand how you can see it one way while I see it another way. And if it wasn't for the demo that obviously shown us how it will really be, I would agree with you.

The thing is a long time ago there was some talk about the fig demo and they (Snapshoot Games) said that it was a bad decision to show the demo, because it looked way to much like NuXCOM and NOT what they want to do with the game. Also someone came up with "But the people might have baked because it feels and looks like NuXCOm" and the answer that I of all the people didn't liked "what ever, their problem". See for me honesty is just important, even if it the other way around.

You can read it on their discord channel if you care. I stop caring, because it seems what ever I post and I often do post the original messages and link to them, people seem to think I am just an angry dumbfuck. And honestly why should I care.

 

[Grotesque]

lso someone came up with "But the people might have baked because it feels and looks like NuXCOm" and the answer that I of all the people didn't liked "what ever, their problem"

do you have some screen grabs?

 

[PanteraNera]

do you have some screen grabs?

No, but I will probably try to find it anyways.

 

[Mustawd]

I just hate the fact, that people SAY one thing, get money for that, believe and than DO the opposite. I do NOT understand why this does not seem to bother anyone else.

But just to sum it up quickly (as I respect you, even if we often disagree), it is that Julian Gollop said they would make one thing, and than they just do the opposite of it. The contradiction is my initial problem

Phoenix Point is being created by Julian Gollop who was the original designer, programmer and artist of X-Com (X-Com: UFO Defense / UFO: Enemy Unknown) in 1994. Phoenix Point is a spiritual successor to the original X-Com games and hopes to invoke the same feeling and atmosphere of those classic games, retaining many of those much-loved gameplay mechanics while adding some new ones.

Shog-goth and PanteraNera, we're going round and round making the same arguments. I'm gonna say this final thing and I'll just let that stand.

A.) The FAQ is NOT undefined. It is VERY clear from the start that it would have plenty of nuXCOM elements as a base. What IS undefined is how much of that would be tweaked.

B.) The above statement, that's at the very end of the campaign pitch IS undefined and vague. Regardless, why would you ignore the fact that they are using an AP system (hybrid or otherwise), they are using a nuXCOM cover system, they are using a shooting system based on nuXCOM, and refer to nuXCOM in a few different questions (pods, soldier counts, etc)? Also, if you were a saavy customer you'd see what Julian has said aobut nuXCOM games and how he thinks their format opened the door for games like PP.

C.) You're also forgetting a lot of things are different than nuXCOM. The shooting system has real ballistics. The AP system is a TU hybrid, which from the sound of it I'm surprised how close to x-com it is considering the source of inspiration is nuXCOm. It has actual ammo in inventory. The class system is slightly tweaked from nuXCOM. It will have location damage (which opens up even more tactical possibilities). It has the inclusion of willpower, which adds more tactical possibilities. It has a faction system. It has a Geoscape close to x-com than nuXCOM. The aesthetic, mood, and music is more in line with x-com's creepy/horror vibe than the nuXCOMs were. And it has no pod system. To me all that is incline and is in the spirit of:

hopes to invoke the same feeling and atmosphere of those classic games, retaining many of those much-loved gameplay mechanics

Also, note the use of the word "games". As in X-com UFO as well as X-COM apocalypse.

I get that hoping it'd be more x-com like is something we all share. But let me be clear: To read the entire Fig campaign and somehow come away surprised that it would include some nuXCOM elements is ridiculous. To think they would go for a pure x-com clone is ridiculous if you actually read the entirety of the Fig campaign. Ok, I'm done arguing the same argument 4 times.

 

[ArchAngel]

That FAQ is very undefined and I can understand how you can see it one way while I see it another way. And if it wasn't for the demo that obviously shown us how it will really be, I would agree with you.

I based my assumptions on what was said, not on a mockup prototype gameplay video that didn't show pretty much anything. There is nothing ambiguos in that FAQ, for me It's crystalline clear what was promised.

It is not clear because that sentence starts with "spiritual successor" and that can mean anything in any quantity. And then when you look at the early gameplay and it is clear what they were aiming for.

 

[Mustawd]

Of course I must say that I did like the nuXCOMs even if they had this much more "board-game" approach

I'm playing XCOM EU this week, and it's a lot of fun. It's a different game from X-com UFO, but fun nonetheless. Of course it could be better, and less handholdey, which is my main complaint.

 

[Shog-goth]

It is not clear because that sentence starts with "spiritual successor" and that can mean anything in any quantity.

Why any quantity? They mentioned many much-loved (UFO) gameplay mechanics and some new (XCOM) ones. Not the other way around.

And I couldn't at the time (nor you) figure out how many of them (and how exactly) are going to be implemented from a very short early prototype video.

 

[ArchAngel]

It is not clear because that sentence starts with "spiritual successor" and that can mean anything in any quantity.

Why any quantity? They mentioned many much-loved (UFO) gameplay mechanics and some new (XCOM) ones. Not the other way around.

And I couldn't at the time (nor you) figure out how many of them (and how exactly) are going to be implemented from a very short early prototype video.

And both words are very undefined.. see?
Also look of the game and its UI are not game mechanics.

If we just look at game mechanics promised it does have a lot from UFO: Proper TU movement that pauses the game when you find new aliens, different weapons taking different amount of TU to fire, bigger teams more resembling UFO than 4-6 nuXcom, ballistic system that makes it you cannot miss from point blank but can hit your guys in the back, everything is destructible, inventory system with limited ammo, being able to pick up items from the battlefield, aliens all move from round 1 and don't use a pod system(means aliens play by same rules as your team), being able to build your base buildings how you want, you will need to build items for each soldier instead of upgrading it all, real simulated aliens on geoscape with goals that react to your actions, morale being brought back in form of willpower point, standing in the open does not make you flanked and more open to critical attacks but just removes a cover bonus, you can have multiple bases and specialize them for different things like in UFO.

EDIT:
Game mechanics it has from nuXcom - health/armor system, one move and one attack combat system (with abilities that allow ways to circumvent that), removal of extra stats like energy, throwing accuracy and such, cover system that is more similar to nuXcom (and it find that more realistic then whatever old UFO had; real soldiers will use cover in a way that NuXcom and now PP are doing), you cannot make a base anywhere you want but only on (randomly - in nuXcom they are not random) generated preset locations.

EDIT2:
Completely new stuff - targeting body parts, aliens mutating based on what weapons you will use against them, multiple non alien factions fighting vs you and aliens, no air interception.

 

[Shog-goth]

Well, this is a fair analysis and, at least from a "quantitative" point of view, I agree with you. But at a "qualitative" level I read the whole thing as "everything (or almost) you loved about UFO and something more from XCOM". Maybe they could, and should, have been clearer to avoid this ambiguity which, perhaps, It's intentional.

Proper TU movement

Apparently It's an hybrid that looks more XCOM APs than UFO TUs, and It's a core mechanic.

 

[luinthoron]

Proper TU movement

Apparently It's an hybrid that looks more XCOM APs than UFO TUs, and It's a core mechanic.

Looks, yes, but as of the latest demo, the only difference with UFO is that you can only shoot once unless you use special abilities that allow you to do more. You can still move+shoot+move if you have the TU or move in smaller steps without finishing your turn.

 

[Shog-goth]

the only difference with UFO is that you can only shoot once unless you use special abilities that allow you to do more. You can still move+shoot+move if you have the TU or move in smaller steps without finishing your turn.

I agree that It seems a more complex system than XCOM, personally I'd rather prefer TUs like UFO but I think I can live with an action system with enough depth. If they achieve It.

 

[Mustawd]

He just talks and shows some pics since he doesn't have the rights to the demo video. But not bad if you just wanna listen while you do something else.

He also has some vids from earlier builds that he played if your interested in seeing how gameplay has evolved over time.

 

[Mustawd]

Looks like they have another video up on Facebook where they do a better job at explaining things, including movement after shooting.

Watched this again a bit more closely, and I have a few questions if you don't mind UnstableVoltage :

1.) The soldiers are represented in the UI by 2D portraits. But they don't really look all that similar to their 3D models. Will soldiers be customizable in terms of looks (like XCOM) or will they be randomly generated (like X-com)? If the former, not sure it makes sense to have 2D portraits like that? Just an observation.

2.) In the video you mentioned Overwatch is tied to willpower. Meaning if you just continue to use overwatch, your will power will run out, and you won't be able to use Overwatch anymore? Do I have that right? I think that's a cool mechanic if true.

3.) From the video it seems that the different elevation layers kind of automatically go transparent as you pan close to them. Any plans on making it like x-com (and XCOM for that matter), where you can control the elevation view? There were some parts in the beginning where the bridge was really bothersome in terms of trying to see what was going on.

Also, there was an instance where overwatch was triggered, but a tower was obscuring view. So it seems that the elevation layers are all on by default. I'd say that's something that probably shouldn't be the case or you'll get all kinds of obscured events.

4.) Not a question, but just wanted to say the bleed animation on enemies is very cool.

5.) Also, not sure if this has been addressed elsewhere, but any plans on having different level soldiers like in both XCOM and X-com (rookie, squaddie, etc)? If so, any hard plans on how to represent them? I'm finding nuXCOM didn't do a very good job in this regard.

6.) Any plans on giving the player control of which direction the characters are facing? Or maybe it doesn't make a difference? I'm specifically thinking of the sniper in thew tower. When you put him on overwatch, is the direction he's facing affecting his LOS? If so, then giving the player the control to decide which direction the squad member is facing would be ideal. With XCOM it wasn't really an option due to their 2AP system, but with the new hybrid system of PP I'm thinking it's doable. However, I can see it being tricky. At least with extra movements you can represent them with additional tiles, but not sure how you'd represent additional movement for directional facing. Maybe make it a free movement regardless? Just a thought.

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Also, this might be a possible bug or not, but I couldn't help but notice one moment where the LOS lines seemed to only indicate LOS on two enemies, but when you zoomed in to fire, it actually shows 3 available targets. Just FYI.

Spoiler

 

[UnstableVoltage]

Looks like they have another video up on Facebook where they do a better job at explaining things, including movement after shooting.

Watched this again a bit more closely, and I have a few questions if you don't mind UnstableVoltage :

1.) The soldiers are represented in the UI by 2D portraits. But they don't really look all that similar to their 3D models. Will soldiers be customizable in terms of looks (like XCOM) or will they be randomly generated (like X-com)? If the former, not sure it makes sense to have 2D portraits like that? Just an observation.

2.) In the video you mentioned Overwatch is tied to willpower. Meaning if you just continue to use overwatch, your will power will run out, and you won't be able to use Overwatch anymore? Do I have that right? I think that's a cool mechanic if true.

3.) From the video it seems that the different elevation layers kind of automatically go transparent as you pan close to them. Any plans on making it like x-com (and XCOM for that matter), where you can control the elevation view? There were some parts in the beginning where the bridge was really bothersome in terms of trying to see what was going on.

Also, there was an instance where overwatch was triggered, but a tower was obscuring view. So it seems that the elevation layers are all on by default. I'd say that's something that probably shouldn't be the case or you'll get all kinds of obscured events.

4.) Not a question, but just wanted to say the bleed animation on enemies is very cool.

5.) Also, not sure if this has been addressed elsewhere, but any plans on having different level soldiers like in both XCOM and X-com (rookie, squaddie, etc)? If so, any hard plans on how to represent them? I'm finding nuXCOM didn't do a very good job in this regard.

6.) Any plans on giving the player control of which direction the characters are facing? Or maybe it doesn't make a difference? I'm specifically thinking of the sniper in thew tower. When you put him on overwatch, is the direction he's facing affecting his LOS? If so, then giving the player the control to decide which direction the squad member is facing would be ideal. With XCOM it wasn't really an option due to their 2AP system, but with the new hybrid system of PP I'm thinking it's doable. However, I can see it being tricky. At least with extra movements you can represent them with additional tiles, but not sure how you'd represent additional movement for directional facing. Maybe make it a free movement regardless? Just a thought.

Thanks in advance.

Hey,

Let me try and answer these for you.

1. Soldiers you receive will be randomly generated, but you will be able to customise them. The portraits in the demo were hand-drawn, but for the full game will represent the soldier on the battlefield.

2. Overwatch is tied to willpower. Its costs 1wp to overwatch. As you say, once you're out of willpower, that soldier will no longer be able to overwatch. You can recover willpower; you could kill enemies, complete objectives, give up your actions for a turn (on that soldier) to recover some. Some soldiers will have abilities to give a willpower boost to the team. The thing is, it isn't just running out of willpower you need to worry about. The lower your willpower gets, the more likely you are to panic (as it works like morale) - so there's a trade-off.

3. In the demo, you can currently control the elevation view with the mouse wheel. We plan to have verticality play a large part in Phoenix Point (especially as you can shoot down over cover from a good vantage point). The camera controls do need work though, and we know that. What we have in the demo isn't anywhere near what we want in the full game - it's just what we had time to implement for the demo.

4. The bleeds do look cool. I know at least one of our artists has done a lot of work on that. Still a few glitches though - sometimes decals are showing over the top of models when they should be hidden - but that's an easy fix.

5. We've been talking a lot about a "promotions" system. Our story and the Phoenix Point organisation doesn't really fit well with a military ranking system. You will, of course, be able to level your soldiers up - but at the moment we're looking into alternatives for ranking that suits the narrative better - including allowing the player to be in-charge of promotions.

6. Personally, I was a big fan of limited field of view and facing, as in OG X-Com. I'm not aware of a plan to implement that here (though I will keep asking!). However, some way of limiting/controlling where overwatch/return-fire is used would be a cool mechanic.

 

[Mustawd]

5. We've been talking a lot about a "promotions" system. Our story and the Phoenix Point organisation doesn't really fit well with a military ranking system. You will, of course, be able to level your soldiers up - but at the moment we're looking into alternatives for ranking that suits the narrative better - including allowing the player to be in-charge of promotions.

Yah, I mean it's not a YUGE deal for me. I was just pointing it out because what I liked in x-com was that if you had a Sgt, they were easily identified due to their rank icon in the UI. Firaxis's version it's hard to identify that at a glance IMO. And this led to just less feedback to the player to make decisions. Who is this guy again? Is he a sgt? A rookie? A squaddie? etc.

Also, I wasn't expecting such a quick response, so I edited my original post above. Please see an additional observation below. Thanks again for addressing the questions.

EDIT: Also, this might be a possible bug or not, but I couldn't help but notice one moment where the LOS lines seemed to only indicate LOS on two enemies, but when you zoomed in to fire, it actually shows 3 available targets. Just FYI.

(The guy in the middle wasn't represented by an LOS line)

Spoiler

 

[Grotesque]

 

[Mustawd]

Oh so that's the post he was talking about.

I notice a recent comment on one of our Facebook posts about controller support. I assume it is from someone present in this thread, as it is almost word for word what has been said here before. While the comment isn't quite accurate (it assumes we're adding controller support for console, when we're not even planning a console release), the tone of the comment is much more civil, and likely to gain serious attention.

 

[Perkel]

Since developers seem to be responded here.

Why the hell you choose nuXcom action system ? Action Point system works perfectly well and it is not retarded as nuXcom system where you can't make small adjustment because "no". And no your willpower isn't action point system regardless of how you sell it precisely because of above reason.

 

[ArchAngel]

2.) In the video you mentioned Overwatch is tied to willpower. Meaning if you just continue to use overwatch, your will power will run out, and you won't be able to use Overwatch anymore? Do I have that right? I think that's a cool mechanic if true.


Thanks in advance.

Hey,

Let me try and answer these for you.



2. Overwatch is tied to willpower. Its costs 1wp to overwatch. As you say, once you're out of willpower, that soldier will no longer be able to overwatch. You can recover willpower; you could kill enemies, complete objectives, give up your actions for a turn (on that soldier) to recover some. Some soldiers will have abilities to give a willpower boost to the team. The thing is, it isn't just running out of willpower you need to worry about. The lower your willpower gets, the more likely you are to panic (as it works like morale) - so there's a trade-off.

I want to expand his question based on your answer. Since you can recover Willpower by just pausing one round and it is unlimited action (?) what will prevent players to just overwatch camp like in nuXcom (just a bit slower). Actually it will probably not be much different than nuXcom 1 because there weapons could only fire a few times before you needed to reload and reload was action that spent your shooting action so you could not reload and overwatch in same turn. So here instead of overwatch and reload player will be able to overwatch and recover willpower?

 

[Mustawd]

TBF you can do the same in old x-com. Just move a few steps or stay still and end your turn. Boom. Reaction shots all day mang.

https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Reaction_Fire

 

[UnstableVoltage]

2.) In the video you mentioned Overwatch is tied to willpower. Meaning if you just continue to use overwatch, your will power will run out, and you won't be able to use Overwatch anymore? Do I have that right? I think that's a cool mechanic if true.


Thanks in advance.

Hey,

Let me try and answer these for you.



2. Overwatch is tied to willpower. Its costs 1wp to overwatch. As you say, once you're out of willpower, that soldier will no longer be able to overwatch. You can recover willpower; you could kill enemies, complete objectives, give up your actions for a turn (on that soldier) to recover some. Some soldiers will have abilities to give a willpower boost to the team. The thing is, it isn't just running out of willpower you need to worry about. The lower your willpower gets, the more likely you are to panic (as it works like morale) - so there's a trade-off.

I want to expand his question based on your answer. Since you can recover Willpower by just pausing one round and it is unlimited action (?) what will prevent players to just overwatch camp like in nuXcom (just a bit slower). Actually it will probably not be much different than nuXcom 1 because there weapons could only fire a few times before you needed to reload and reload was action that spent your shooting action so you could not reload and overwatch in same turn. So here instead of overwatch and reload player will be able to overwatch and recover willpower?

Well, a soldier would have to give up the chance to overwatch in order to recover. Now that might not seem like a big deal, as you'll have multiple other soldiers who could still overwatch, and you could rotate them (valid tactic). But remember, we don't use a pod system. All enemies will be active, so you could suddenly find yourself surrounded by a lot of enemies. The longer you take the clear them out, the more chance there is that they will home in on you.

That said, the system isn't anywhere near complete yet - so there will be lots of play-testing and balancing to make sure a particular mechanic can't be abused too much.

 

[Alienman]

The big issue over all this is that we were merely saying that controller support should not affect the UI for K and M.

However, based on the answers we got it’s apparent they were going to combine the two. Which is ridiculous for a strategy/tactics game IMO.

It’s funny because the first time I ever played X-com was on the Playstation 1, and I fell in love with the game. But goddamn that UI was awful and unecessarily frustrating. A few years later I found out it was an actual PC game and the gameplay was like night and day by comparison.

There was a mouse for Playstation 1

 

[ArchAngel]

2.) In the video you mentioned Overwatch is tied to willpower. Meaning if you just continue to use overwatch, your will power will run out, and you won't be able to use Overwatch anymore? Do I have that right? I think that's a cool mechanic if true.


Thanks in advance.

Hey,

Let me try and answer these for you.



2. Overwatch is tied to willpower. Its costs 1wp to overwatch. As you say, once you're out of willpower, that soldier will no longer be able to overwatch. You can recover willpower; you could kill enemies, complete objectives, give up your actions for a turn (on that soldier) to recover some. Some soldiers will have abilities to give a willpower boost to the team. The thing is, it isn't just running out of willpower you need to worry about. The lower your willpower gets, the more likely you are to panic (as it works like morale) - so there's a trade-off.

I want to expand his question based on your answer. Since you can recover Willpower by just pausing one round and it is unlimited action (?) what will prevent players to just overwatch camp like in nuXcom (just a bit slower). Actually it will probably not be much different than nuXcom 1 because there weapons could only fire a few times before you needed to reload and reload was action that spent your shooting action so you could not reload and overwatch in same turn. So here instead of overwatch and reload player will be able to overwatch and recover willpower?

Well, a soldier would have to give up the chance to overwatch in order to recover. Now that might not seem like a big deal, as you'll have multiple other soldiers who could still overwatch, and you could rotate them (valid tactic). But remember, we don't use a pod system. All enemies will be active, so you could suddenly find yourself surrounded by a lot of enemies. The longer you take the clear them out, the more chance there is that they will home in on you.

That said, the system isn't anywhere near complete yet - so there will be lots of play-testing and balancing to make sure a particular mechanic can't be abused too much.

It is not even about abusing, it is because if it works better then moving forward and cleaning up aliens people will be using it all the time and the game will get the same bad reputation that Long War 1 had where this was by far the best tactic to use and it turned the game into a boring slog.

One way to fix it is that like in UFO you don't always get your overwatch shot immediately but first your reaction fire stat is compared with enemy reaction fire and then game decides who goes first. If enemy wins they get to attack you first when they encounter you and if you are still alive then you get your overwatch shot. Peekers advantage is a real thing even in real life (if that peeker knows you are there and your general location, like other aliens have you in line of sight). Something like this might be even more important in PP as aliens will not be coming in 3-5 groups and 1 or 2 aliens might always die to overwatch making the game too easy.
EDIT: And this can be tweaked so that aliens that seen you on their turn and moved out of sight still told others about your troop locations. And if you don't move your trooper that you set on overwatch (or even if don't move him far enough) enemies will get that peekers advantage.
This one new gameplay mechanic can easily work to force your team to keep moving instead of camping.

Also since you are not going to be using pod system (or better to say aliens travelling in groups) it is important that lone aliens are smart like in UFO - if they got a ranged weapon they will peek out of full cover, use it and move out of sight. Otherwise lone aliens are always going to be target practice for your group. Also melee enemies with any brains and shorter move speed should be moving out of sight as well to force your team to come to them.

 

[PanteraNera]

Since developers seem to be responded here.

Why the hell you choose nuXcom action system ? Action Point system works perfectly well and it is not retarded as nuXcom system where you can't make small adjustment because "no". And no your willpower isn't action point system regardless of how you sell it precisely because of above reason.

Good question.
Sadly, they do not respond to dickish people.

 

[flyingjohn]

Since developers seem to be responded here.

Why the hell you choose nuXcom action system ? Action Point system works perfectly well and it is not retarded as nuXcom system where you can't make small adjustment because "no". And no your willpower isn't action point system regardless of how you sell it precisely because of above reason.

Because the entire point of this game is to create a nuxcom clone but with am little bit more complexity.
Unfortunately complexity isn't what nuxcom fans want,so they fucked up.