Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire + DLC Thread - now with turn-based combat!

[FreeKaner]

I'm not so sure about not being able to explain those things and I'm not sure where exactly magic in PoE would be different. I'm swamped with different analogies and don't know what would be best to use here because I'm not certain what exactly you are arguing. Where specifically is the magic in PoE inept and not like music?

There is no different analogies, there is only one analogy. The analogy that things can have both empirical and rational basis, while being on the whole not completely dissected. It's not a switch between logical and mystical as you are implying, and things can have both a theory and be entirely subjective and cumulative.

PoE "magic" is a weird combination of biology and chemistry.

 

[Lacrymas]

Sexual/romantic love also amounts to hormonal imbalances (biology and chemistry), but that doesn't mean we feel them less or not at all. Music amounts to structured vibrating air. There really is no peeking beyond human consciousness and senses for us, so we'll always have this reaction to vibrating air and hormonal imbalances. It does raise interesting questions about the human condition, doesn't it?

 

[FreeKaner]

Sexual/romantic love also amounts to hormonal imbalances (biology and chemistry), but that doesn't mean we feel them less or not at all. Music amounts to structured vibrating air. There really is no peeking beyond human consciousness and senses for us, so we'll always have this reaction to vibrating air and hormonal imbalances.

That's exactly the point though. They have a logical basis, but they cannot be explained away in a mathematical way with a chain of self-supporting questions and answers. It's instead a lot of questions and answers that don't necessarily match and explain everything, in fact it feels more like a chaos we can see patterns of. Moreover it's the layers I mentioned, of the gradual embedding into an understanding that's more esoteric. Indeed maybe that's a better distinction, PoE magic feels way too exoteric and systematic. There is I think a clear difference between esoteric and logical versus exoteric and systematic. The latter lacks magic.

 

[Riddler]

Deadfire's review score finally bumped to 82% btw. Recent reviews are still overwhelmingly positive.

How many reviews do you chug out per day?

 

[Roguey]

At this point why even care about Pillars lore consistency?. Just burn the whole setting down, very few care.

 

[Delterius]

At this point why even care about Pillars lore consistency?. Just burn the whole setting down, very few care.

this isn't about any one setting

its about stemlord autism ruining magic

its a battle for the future of fantasy

 

[Riddler]

A semi-related question to the earlier tech discussion: what has happened with the performance of Deadfire?

At release I got fast load times (like a sec or two) changing areas and not a single crash. Now when I tried it again I get loadtimes of over 10 sec changing and sometimes even just entering sub areas such as houses. Additionally I have gotten 2 crashes by mid game and it sometimes crashes hangs on starting up the game.

I have a modern computer with mostly top of the line components and dont experience any issues in other games.

Furthermore, claims that combat and difficulty has been fixed are patently false. Beyond the first island you don't encounter any difficulty at all, on PotD, if you don't purposely run into encounters well above your own level (currently at lvl 10) and I can't see things getting better. It might not be pants on head retarded anymore but it is not good and it remains to be seen how things are as I get out of the mid levels.

 

[Roguey]

At release I got fast load times (like a sec or two) changing areas and not a single crash. Now when I tried it again I get loadtimes of over 10 sec changing and sometimes even just entering sub areas such as houses. Additionally I have gotten 2 crashes by mid game and it sometimes crashes hangs on starting up the game.

I have a modern computer with mostly top of the line components and dont experience any issues in other games.

Try clearing out your save folder.

 

[Safav Hamon]

Spoiler

 

[filpan]

^Who this?

 

[Safav Hamon]

Vatnir

 

[filpan]

Oh yeah. I havent tried him as a companion, maybe next playthrough.

 

[TheImplodingVoice]

Plenty of 100 hour games had higher than 1% completion by this point.

The Witcher 3 had around 40% completion after three months. Kingmaker is just embarrassing.

Not as embarassing as all your shitty polls

 

[Lawntoilet]

At this point why even care about Pillars lore consistency?. Just burn the whole setting down, very few care.

this isn't about any one setting

its about stemlord autism ruining magic

its a battle for the future of fantasy

Who started that shit, incidentally?
Seems like it was popularized by Robert Jordan and even more so by Brandon Sanderson, although in fairness to them they at least attempt to do what FreeKaner said in the approach of their settings' magical "scientists."

 

[Delterius]

At this point why even care about Pillars lore consistency?. Just burn the whole setting down, very few care.

this isn't about any one setting

its about stemlord autism ruining magic

its a battle for the future of fantasy

Who started that shit, incidentally?
Seems like it was popularized by Robert Jordan and even more so by Brandon Sanderson, although in fairness to them they at least attempt to do what FreeKaner said in the approach of their settings' magical "scientists."

my friend

this is a battle as old as time

since the ages when 'science fiction' was both star trek and tolkien

there were stemlords, masters of engineering degrees who, lacking in a worthwhile job, embody autismation vicariously via words of runic power (they also tend to like dwarves)

and there were True Poets® who grasped the innate truth that magic is mystery, ignorance and most of all, jurisprudence

once a game is known, quantified and replicated it is no longer a game -- it is no longer magic and it lacks all the wonder in the world

it is but olympic masturbation over numbers

 

[TemplarGR]

my friend

this is a battle as old as time

since the ages when 'science fiction' was both star trek and tolkien

there were stemlords, masters of engineering degrees who, lacking in a worthwhile job, embody autismation vicariously via words of runic power (they also tend to like dwarves)

and there were True Poets® who grasped the innate truth that magic is mystery, ignorance and most of all, jurisprudence

once a game is known, quantified and replicated it is no longer a game -- it is no longer magic and it lacks all the wonder in the world

it is but olympic masturbation over numbers

Sounds like most crpgs

 

[Delterius]

Sounds like most crpgs

the player is cursed with awareness, it is unable to truly immerse themselves in a world of fantasy and wonder

they can only do so through ignorance

every game is a journey of enlightenment, fully aware that once complete knowledge is reached there's no future

there's no point in playing a game you already know

just as there's no point to magic you can engineer

worry then for those who instead of looking for new worlds to explore

wallow in their self pity, in the darkness of knowledge

in the original sin

and so spend a thousand thousand days engineering a system of perfect balance

of perfect play

of performance in place of true delight

for that is the path of sawyer

and only darkness is at its end

 

[Riddler]

At release I got fast load times (like a sec or two) changing areas and not a single crash. Now when I tried it again I get loadtimes of over 10 sec changing and sometimes even just entering sub areas such as houses. Additionally I have gotten 2 crashes by mid game and it sometimes crashes hangs on starting up the game.

I have a modern computer with mostly top of the line components and dont experience any issues in other games.

Try clearing out your save folder.

Didn't work, I still have unacceptable load times. :/

 

[Lacrymas]

No idea what you people are on about. Magic as a metaphysical concept in PoE is fine imo, the problem is the inability of the writers to write anything of value. Well, the other problem is the uselessness of the majority of spells in this franchise. I fired up PoE1 yesterday to try to force myself through some of act 3 to get my story talents and to continue with WM2, and I noticed how few spells I actually use with all the spellcasting classes. Wizard has the most diversity of useful spells, Priest is in the middle, and Druid has 3ish spells that are useful. Druid is really shit in this franchise tbh and that's disappointing, since Druid is one of my go-to classes. It feels more like a watered down Wizard than a commander/disciple of nature.

I also noticed a lot of the spells being samey and there really is no difference between using one over the other, it's only flavor.

 

[Delterius]

It feels more like a watered down Wizard than a commander/disciple of nature.

druids are just hedge soul engineers

of course they are watered down wizards

 

[Safav Hamon]

One interesting note about magic in Pillars lore is that it's not restricted solely to spells, but physical feats as well. Technically when a Fighter uses a knock-down ability, he's utilizing his soul power.

 

[Lawntoilet]

No idea what you people are on about. Magic as a metaphysical concept in PoE is fine imo, the problem is the inability of the writers to write anything of value. Well, the other problem is the uselessness of the majority of spells in this franchise. I fired up PoE1 yesterday to try to force myself through some of act 3 to get my story talents and to continue with WM2, and I noticed how few spells I actually use with all the spellcasting classes. Wizard has the most diversity of useful spells, Priest is in the middle, and Druid has 3ish spells that are useful. Druid is really shit in this franchise tbh and that's disappointing, since Druid is one of my go-to classes. It feels more like a watered down Wizard than a commander/disciple of nature.

I also noticed a lot of the spells being samey and there really is no difference between using one over the other, it's only flavor.

I do think Animancy as a renaissance-era science was done better in Deadfire, in the first game every animancer was basically either Dr Haber or Dr Moreau.
The second game had a sense that they were actually exploring and discovering new facets of the field, although it was also still used as a catch-all "souls did it" excuse sometimes. It's odd in that in-universe it is a systematic science but from a writing perspective it seems like it doesn't have a lot of rules or limits other than what the narrative requires.

 

[Lawntoilet]

At this point why even care about Pillars lore consistency?. Just burn the whole setting down, very few care.

this isn't about any one setting

its about stemlord autism ruining magic

its a battle for the future of fantasy

Who started that shit, incidentally?
Seems like it was popularized by Robert Jordan and even more so by Brandon Sanderson, although in fairness to them they at least attempt to do what FreeKaner said in the approach of their settings' magical "scientists."

my friend

this is a battle as old as time

since the ages when 'science fiction' was both star trek and tolkien

there were stemlords, masters of engineering degrees who, lacking in a worthwhile job, embody autismation vicariously via words of runic power (they also tend to like dwarves)

and there were True Poets® who grasped the innate truth that magic is mystery, ignorance and most of all, jurisprudence

once a game is known, quantified and replicated it is no longer a game -- it is no longer magic and it lacks all the wonder in the world

it is but olympic masturbation over numbers

I agree that pointless quantifying and systematizing can take the magic out of an unknown thing, but I also don't think something has to be unknown to be magical. There is magic in the sense of discovery of course, but once the thing is discovered there is magic in the feeling of achieving a greater understanding or mastery of the subject, and further understanding or discoveries that it enables.
I don't think you were trying to say that wasn't the case I just felt like pointing out that I don't see the dichotomy as being just between leftbrain scientists wanting to quantify and nitpick the magic out of everything and rightbrain poets who observe the numinous without making an effort to understand it.

 

[Delterius]

I agree that pointless quantifying and systematizing can take the magic out of an unknown thing, but I also don't think something has to be unknown to be magical. There is magic in the sense of discovery of course, but once the thing is discovered there is magic in the feeling of achieving a greater understanding or mastery of the subject, and further understanding or discoveries that it enables.
I don't think you were trying to say that wasn't the case I just felt like pointing out that I don't see the dichotomy as being just between leftbrain scientists wanting to quantify and nitpick the magic out of everything and rightbrain poets who observe the numinous without making an effort to understand it.

my friend

we must draw a line

not between magic and technique

but between these and the those who see one for the other

there are some who'd say

that sufficiently analyzed magic is the same as technology

but only non-fools can tell that magic in truth is resistant to analysis

that is because spellcraft is not engineering and magic is not science

magic runs on authority, science destroys it

magic is jurisprudence and wonder, science is security and want

magic is the road that ends at an invitation towards the same road, but different from ever before and from ever again

science is the road that once travelled becomes the railroad

consider: the realms of mechanus and the legends of fay

if thou art to know in truth what is said, thou art to know the difference

between those who learn from magic what never was and can never be again

and those who believe there's magic in flinging fireballs of stable measurings

 

[Lawntoilet]

I agree that pointless quantifying and systematizing can take the magic out of an unknown thing, but I also don't think something has to be unknown to be magical. There is magic in the sense of discovery of course, but once the thing is discovered there is magic in the feeling of achieving a greater understanding or mastery of the subject, and further understanding or discoveries that it enables.
I don't think you were trying to say that wasn't the case I just felt like pointing out that I don't see the dichotomy as being just between leftbrain scientists wanting to quantify and nitpick the magic out of everything and rightbrain poets who observe the numinous without making an effort to understand it.

my friend

we must draw a line

not between magic and technique

but between these and the those who see one for the other

there are some who'd say

that sufficiently analyzed magic is the same as technology

but only non-fools can tell that magic in truth is resistant to analysis

that is because spellcraft is not engineering and magic is not science

magic runs on authority, science destroys it

magic is jurisprudence and wonder, science is security and want

magic is the road that ends at an invitation towards the same road, but different from ever before and from ever again

science is the road that once travelled becomes the railroad

consider: the realms of mechanus and the legends of fay

if thou art to know in truth what is said, thou art to know the difference

between those who learn from magic what never was and can never be again

and those who believe there's magic in flinging fireballs of stable measurings

Then where is this line drawn?
Why enter into any endeavour if not to discover new unknowns? Do these new mysteries have less value?
Why make any attempt to analyze anything deeper than what can be seen and grasped?
Why even ask "why?"