Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire + DLC Thread - now with turn-based combat!

[Lacrymas]

PoE1 is worth playing for WM alone, though. Everything else is carcinogenic and so bland I lose my will to live. I'm also in the minority, but I think WM1 is better than part 2. When I first played it, I thought the opposite, but on my replay I realized that no, WM2 is unfocused and the plot goes off the rails again. WM1 perfectly captures an adventurous feel that culminates in a cool dungeon with a great reward, WM2 not so much. If they relegate the writing only to lore and function, I can live with that as well. I've been playing a lot of ToME recently and the writing in there is only an excuse to visit *very* cool locations (like a meteor above the planet) with cool enemies. It's filled with all kinds of lore notes if you want to go into the history of the world, and some of it is good, but I mostly praise it for its variety and creative use in-game (I'd like more tile variations for some of the dungeons, though). This is what I want to see more of in RPGs, writing that enables adventure, wanderlust, awe and unorthodox quest design, and less walls of text that go nowhere.

That is also my main gripe with PoE1 and 2's writing; I can live with walls of text and what have you, but there should be cool gameplay ramifications, they filled PoE1 with forest after forest, after swamp, after featureless fields, after snow forests, after more swamps and more forests, and so on and on. I absolutely blame the writing for PoE's blandness because it's their responsibility to think up the quest and zone design, as well as the exploration. They should've concluded the Eothas business in the first act of the game, and then focused on the factions, I've written extensively on how they can create natural tension between the Huana and the Vailians by having the Vailians recruit the lower caste in the Gullet for manual labor in the luminous adra extraction and refinement process, leading to the lower caste having more resources and clamoring for housing in the upper areas of the city. They should've also written the pirates to have a political philosophy, maybe an anarchist one, that clashes with the Huana and the RDF.

Both PoEs are Wasted Potential: The Game because of the lousy writing and the inability of the writing team to properly use what they've come up with, leading to boring, almost parodical treatment of a fantasy setting and plot that doesn't work at all when combined with gameplay.

 

[PsychoFox]

I've heard about WM being better than the base game before, but currently, i'm just too burned out by the base game. I kept my saves though, so i might give it a try later on. Right now i think i'll just start with the second game. As for plot, i actually really like the lore of the PoE. It's when it comes to the story itself and the player's role in it, along with the character writing and stuff that it loses me pretty fast. And yest i pretty much agree with your opinion on the causes of the game's blandness.

The worst sin with the writing tho imo, is how it fails miserably at making the story the player's story. I'll demonstrate by expanding my point in the initial "review" i wrote above.

When you first become a watcher, you are soon met with the possibility that you might go insane. Now at no point in the game does this possibly actually manifest itself. The worst you get are infrequent nightmares. The game itself actually mentions that this threat is just a possibility and not at all a concrete thing. In fact the game gives you several chances to specifically tell your companions that you are not in fact concerned with this issue and that you don't think you'll ever go nuts because of it. Now the game supports such choice up until the end of act 3, where suddenly, out of nowhere, a conversation with a bunch of tree-ladies suddenly suggests that your case is actually dire. Your companions lose their shits, and you don't even have a "bitch please, I'm fine" option anymore. That really ruined what litter immersion in the character i had. It's the games biggest flaw imo, and i'm very surprised that obsidianites didn't do a better job of it. The whole struggle of the plot is so impersonal. The threat is always looming in the (very far) distance and not at all a tangible thing. There's really no motivation behind doing anything. It made much more sense to me to resign myself to managing my keep and exploring the mega dungeon, which incidentally, had much more interesting and captivating story.

 

[Tigranes]

The funny thing is how the main plot follows the BG2 convention of "distant mysterious antagonist with inscrutable motives until the very end, delivering plot trickles by dream sequences".

I guess key points are (1) BG2 wasn't particularly great with its main story, but it didn't matter so much because the rest of the game was so grand; (2) Irenicus was pompous and grandiose, but the writing was still leaner than Thaos, and the lore behind what he was doing was also less heavy-handed, so it didn't grate so much.

I am still butthurt that the entire game wasn't about the hollowborn and how it totally fucks with the fragile political order, like Raedric & the Gilded Vale seemed to promise. The bell tolls, and the baron in the mansion on the hill mourns - oh wait forget all of that let's do some random faction quests and oh wait forget about all of that the plot is actually about gods

 

[Lacrymas]

Nah, PoE1 follows BG1 almost to a T -

I proposed once that the flashbacks with Thaos should've been playable, to make them more personal. I think they tried to copy BG1's story structure -> You find yourself not knowing what you are (Bhaalspawn/Watcher) or where to go, a central conflict (Iron Crisis/Hollowborn Crisis) sweeps you up and introduces you to your antagonist (Sarevok/Thaos), you go around trying to get to a big city (Baldur's Gate/Defiance Bay), a political struggle (Iron Throne/Animancy) and coup makes itself apparent (Sarevok trying to kill the dukes/Thaos killing the duc), you go around trying to catch the antagonist (Thieves' Maze/Sun in Shadow). All the while unrelated adventures happen. The execution differs greatly, however, and PoE struggles with coming up with a plot and making the characters in it relevant. It tries to focus too much on each premise, but since it's simultaneously rushed and overwritten none of them can be given a spotlight, so the narrative jumps from one to the other without any precedents.

There is no problem with each of these premises or whether there's an antagonist or not. It would've turned out better had the story been focused on one thing, the game is already bursting at the seams by trying to do too much with a limited budget and time constraint. They could've interconnected everything better, but that would require either more time/money or cutting of different content, like Twin Elms. Which I wouldn't have been opposed to tbh, Twin Elms feels like and is an afterthought. There is an extra act which BG1 doesn't have and could've been cut without the game losing anything, and even gaining something. If one game could benefit enormously from an EE, it's PoE, I kinda hope they do do this at one point.

 

[glass blackbird]

Honestly, having a bad plot and boring areas is pretty apropos as a BG1 homage. I put to you that the stuff people actually like from the BG series are either in BG2 (actual writing, quests, dungeons, etc) or added by modders (SCS encounters in BG1). Like yeah ok the tower in BG1 is cool but other than that... IDK. Thaos is certainly Budget Jon Irenicus but otherwise it's very BG1 in all the worst ways

BG1 at least has less writing which definitely helps. People shut the hell up.

 

[Lacrymas]

BG1 didn't have a bad plot, though. In the sense of a logical progression of events (which is what a plot is). The same can't be said about PoE1, which doesn't even have a plot. BG1 also has a looooot of maps and it feels BIG, I'd argue this huge landmass is what gives it its peculiar flavor, it wouldn't have had the same effect had it been like PoE1, where you can feel the cut corners and very small, very claustrophobic maps. You can also feel how nobody actually knew what to do with those maps and a lot of them feel like wasted space exactly because they are so tiny and don't contribute to the perception of hugeness. BG1 is a huge interconnected area you explore, PoE1 is an incoherent patchwork.

 

[Tigranes]

I don't disagree, Lacrymas. Ultimately it comes down to the fact that BG1/2's main plot structure was really not a great thing to benchmark, and whereas that didn't hurt the BGs too much as a relatively lighthearted fantasy romp relying on a familiar backdrop, it was a very bad choice for a new franchise with a Very Serious setting.

 

[Lacrymas]

It still could've been Very Serious with BG1's structure, but not in the way they handled it. Imagine, perhaps, that you get abducted by the dudes who attack the caravan instead of going into that cave, and having to somehow get out of that predicament, leaving you in the middle of nowhere in a new land, maybe with Eder having escaped with you. You make your way to the first town and hear that Raedric is recruiting people to help with the dead babies, you really have no other alternative at first and the game goes even more BG1 by having you explore and trying to find solutions/hints/whatever. Drop the watcher business, drop Thaos, and there you go.

 

[Jimmious]

Yeah for me at least the main issue about big parts of the plot of PoE1 and 2 is that it lacks a lot of player agency.
You never feel really connected to what is happening and there isn't always a real motivation for your character to do the stuff he's doing.
I often felt that I'm just doing stuff because I must do quests yo

 

[MajorMace]

Eder is oh so concerned with veganism and WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALES but raiding ships and murdering crew in fucking cold blood and not a quip!

Hey isn't that huh... actually pretty close to our new reality ?

Yeah for me at least the main issue about big parts of the plot of PoE1 and 2 is that it lacks a lot of player agency.

One could say there isn't any player agency at all.
But then again the problem isn't really here, IE games lacked that too. Problem is when you give the player an observer role and tell the story of another character (or characters), you better make sure that at least the shit happening is intereting in some ways, or the characters. Eothas and the other gods offer none of that.

It's structured like a character-driven story but actually lies upon a world-driven background.

 

[Elephantman]

There is no fundamental difference between AC and DR from a pure statistical PoV

Literally, the second moment already different. Contradicts himself in the same sentence...


I couldnt figure out how the %DR in Deadfire works... Had to look it up.
And its real_malus = 1-1/(1-malus) and it gets subtracted from the bonus %.
So, for example a Graze is displayed as 50% DR, in reality it subtracts -100% from the bonus sum and later behaves as a divider, ie a multiplier that is close to the displayed DR%.
-1PEN: 1-1/(1-0.25) = -0.33
GRAZE: 1-1/(1-0.5) = -1.0
This value gets added to 1 by doing 1-(-0.33) = 1.33 and the dmg is then divided by this final value. So, say, 100dmg/1.33 = 75dmg and is about a 25% drop. But only if the bonus drops into negatives.

Examples, a weapons does 1 basedmg and gets 50% bonus from might+exceptional:

30 exceptional
20 might
-33 -1pen (-25% ingame)
17 sum -> 1.17 -> 117% of basedmg, 22% drop vs 1.5

30 exceptional
20 might
-100 graze or -2pen (-50% ingame)
-50 sum -> 1/1.5 -> 66% of basedmg, 56% drop vs 1.5

30 exceptional
20 might
-200 graze and -2pen (-50% twice ingame)
-150 sum -> 1/2.5 -> 40% of basedmg, 73% drop vs 1.5

30 exceptional
20 might
-300 -3pen (-75% ingame)
-250 sum -> 1/3.5 -> 28% of base dmg, 81% drop vs 1.5

And that's one of the reasons 2AR above PEN or Grazes even are not enough to make Eder dmg proof. The enemies often have a lot of bonuses to offset the -100 drop.
Another consequence is that two -10%dmg items are worse than one -20%dmg item. Not by much though, like 3%, irrelevant.
And another note is that -3PEN is much stronger than -2PEN, by more than the obvious 25% because offsetting -100 to get some dmg is much easier than offsetting -300 and being reduced to minimal dmg...

 

[Jimmious]

But then again the problem isn't really here, IE games lacked that too.

Well at least when your father dies there some incentive to go around and find who attacked you and why. In PoE you just happen upon stuff which are sometimes vaguely interesting but in general nothing seems too important simply because they didn't give you anything to "invest emotionally" into.
You only have your character... Some caravan master dies along with some random warriors.... who cares? Some weird ritual happens afterwards but still... it doesn't feel like you are directly related but more like you just stumbled upon something you shouldn't have

 

[Sailor Woedica]

I so wish they streamed these games!!! I guess it's better tho because they can use any cool stories and characters in Pillars of Eternity III

 

[Lacrymas]

Cool stories involving their nebula-gendered queer characters running around being "heroes" and stopping the oppressive status quo (which the devs are a part of as a cog in the capitalistic machine). I dunno, somehow it doesn't sound appealing.

 

[Elephantman]

Exploit: in some CYOA ambushes you can mash Alt in just right place and get Stealth "in combat".

Math: An upgrade from Exceptional Plate to Legendary (+2AR) costs 45000 gold. A potions of +3AR costs 120 gold.
Question: How many potions can you chug before an upgrade becomes economical?
Bonus points: A Legendary Plate costs 30000 gold to buy. How many potions do we save if you buy instead of Upgrade?

Spoiler

I wanted to see what the payoff of the obvious ambush is and wrote KillAllEnemies

A summoner chanter produces 6 skellies of 12 sec duration. You kill one with Grave Calling and 2 stronger (bug?) skellies of 12 sec duration pop out, as well as a 40 sec Imp. Its a factory xD

Wizard killed himself...

Elder Tigers are the dumbest creatures... Dumber than slimes etc

I am charging my laz0rs...

How do I use this semi/offensively on an Assassin? Or Serafen? Ideas?

-edit-
Recovery is a problem if you try to do backstabs alone around lotsa enemies and go Petrified.
Enemies move away from burning barrels if they cant attack you if you try to Petrify next to them.
Maybe as an extra roadblock next to Eder but Id rather do damage.

 

[Lacrymas]

The AC from the upgrade and the potion stack, don't they? So that question is irrelevant. Yeah, if you don't need more AC, the potions are more lucrative.

 

[MajorMace]

But then again the problem isn't really here, IE games lacked that too.

Well at least when your father dies there some incentive to go around and find who attacked you and why. In PoE you just happen upon stuff which are sometimes vaguely interesting but in general nothing seems too important simply because they didn't give you anything to "invest emotionally" into.
You only have your character... Some caravan master dies along with some random warriors.... who cares? Some weird ritual happens afterwards but still... it doesn't feel like you are directly related but more like you just stumbled upon something you shouldn't have

By player agency I think of games like New Vegas or Twitcher 2 which are structured from the beginning to support it. Then the design can take it into consideration in meaningful ways.
Wandering around after Gorion's death is not anymore reactive to the player's choices than wandering around in any part of Tamriel imo.

 

[Sailor Woedica]

Cool stories involving their nebula-gendered queer characters running around being "heroes" and stopping the oppressive status quo (which the devs are a part of as a cog in the capitalistic machine). I dunno, somehow it doesn't sound appealing.

That sounds soooo awesome!

 

[MajorMace]

Are all these gifs from the obsidian cm twitter folder ?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Literally, the second moment already different. Contradicts himself in the same sentence...


I couldnt figure out how the %DR in Deadfire works... Had to look it up.
And its real_malus = 1-1/(1-malus) and it gets subtracted from the bonus %.
So, for example a Graze is displayed as 50% DR, in reality it subtracts -100% from the bonus sum and later behaves as a divider, ie a multiplier that is close to the displayed DR%.
-1PEN: 1-1/(1-0.25) = -0.33
GRAZE: 1-1/(1-0.5) = -1.0
This value gets added to 1 by doing 1-(-0.33) = 1.33 and the dmg is then divided by this final value. So, say, 100dmg/1.33 = 75dmg and is about a 25% drop. But only if the bonus drops into negatives.

Examples, a weapons does 1 basedmg and gets 50% bonus from might+exceptional:

30 exceptional
20 might
-33 -1pen (-25% ingame)
17 sum -> 1.17 -> 117% of basedmg, 22% drop vs 1.5

30 exceptional
20 might
-100 graze or -2pen (-50% ingame)
-50 sum -> 1/1.5 -> 66% of basedmg, 56% drop vs 1.5

30 exceptional
20 might
-200 graze and -2pen (-50% twice ingame)
-150 sum -> 1/2.5 -> 40% of basedmg, 73% drop vs 1.5

30 exceptional
20 might
-300 -3pen (-75% ingame)
-250 sum -> 1/3.5 -> 28% of base dmg, 81% drop vs 1.5

And that's one of the reasons 2AR above PEN or Grazes even are not enough to make Eder dmg proof. The enemies often have a lot of bonuses to offset the -100 drop.
Another consequence is that two -10%dmg items are worse than one -20%dmg item. Not by much though, like 3%, irrelevant.
And another note is that -3PEN is much stronger than -2PEN, by more than the obvious 25% because offsetting -100 to get some dmg is much easier than offsetting -300 and being reduced to minimal dmg...

This has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

 

[Elephantman]

^
I know, that's why there are 2 linebreaks between 'hurr durr ac == dr muh statostiks'-pure-idiotism and some Soyer math. You have no idea bout statistics and all can tell by your avatar that you are a mental midget. And of course your quip about Soyer being wrong actually has nothing to do with what Soyer is saying in that quote! You literally cant read. And to top if off DT > DR in isolation, always. But thats not even the important core of a design, defense is secondary. The design starts with the question on how to differentiate offense aside from DPS, ie its mean. You know what DR looks like, imbecile? It looks like DPS.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

^
I know, that's why there are 2 linebreaks between 'hurr durr ac == dr muh statostiks'-pure-idiotism and some Soyer math. You have no idea bout statistics and all can tell by your avatar that you are a mental midget. And of course your quip about Soyer being wrong actually has nothing to do with what Soyer is saying in that quote! You literally cant read. And to top if off DT > DR in isolation, always. But thats not even the important core of a design, defense is secondary. The design starts with the question on how to differentiate offense aside from DPS, ie its mean. You know what DR looks like, imbecile? It looks like DPS.

You still don't understand what the conversation was about, just stop.

 

[Elephantman]

"Flat DR systems are bad because it screws over anything that attacks fast but things that attack slow are barely impacted.
This is one of those mechanics that "seems" more realistic but just isn't fun."
^ hang yourself

 

[Quillon]

Btw. I want to give the cringiest moment in games award to Deadfire. When the generic Rautain said "Criticism is easier than creation" with that awkward voice I wanted to


Carry on.

 

[AwesomeButton]

"Criticism is easier than creation"

Some writer felt very proud of coming up with this line.