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Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire + DLC Thread - now with turn-based combat!

Riddler

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
2,389
Bubbles In Memoria
You know there's an option to play it turn based right? I did and greatly enjoyed the game.
The game isn't designed around this and it really shows. I found it a profoundly unpleasant experience.

Either go full TB and design the game around that or full rtwp and design the game around that. This awkward middle ground, whether in rtwp not designed for rtwp or tb tacked ok a rtwp game is shit imo.
 
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
3,769
Turn based in POE 2 sucks, combat feels awfully slow even for TB standards and it feels like they didn't really redesigned the character's abilities to work properly either in TB or in RTWP.
Even worse, you can't switch it on the go, like in Pathfinder.
 

chuft

Augur
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
519
I love it and particularly getting to enjoy the animations and sounds which in real time were constantly overlapping and getting interrupted by pausing. Only bought the game once it had turn based. Could care less about Sawyeristic balancing concerns. So using a sword is better in melee than a dagger, gee what a loss.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,902
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
Man, development and performance of this game feels like such a shame and missed opportunity.

I Recently started replaying Deadfire and I’m at once struck by how much this game gets right while at the same time missing key components to make it a truly great and enjoyable game, and instead leaves it an intermittenlty enjoyable but for me ultimately frustrating experience.

On the positive side we have:

  • The graphics, they look great. The backgrounds, the particle effects, the weather effects etc. All this looks amazing. The one nit-pick I have is character models that just look Ok, especially combined with Sawyers realism boner making all the armors looking too similar for the view distance (because they mostly have cloth covering)
  • The quest design is often very good. There are multiple solutions to practically every quest and you can utilise a vast number of abilities in mostly logical ways to solve problems.
  • Great item variety with a tons of different types of equipment and effects. Tons of creativity and variety here even if it visually sometimes blends together a bit and has been somewhat nerfed since release.
  • Reactions and reputations for most things you do.
  • Some of the music is really nice, like the tavern music and the sea chanties, as well as some of the old tracks.


These are big positives and at the first glance this sounds amazing but unfortunately some of the negatives puts a damper on all the positive that has been accomplished.



  • The biggest glaring negative is the poor character writing and the abysmal plot. In such a narrative heavy game as this you can’t fail this badly in these respects. The plot goes nowhere and you have little to no say over what happens, in an RPG! It is good that you can choose whatever faction you want to side with but when the overall plot has such massive implications and you have no means to impact it at all, despite obvious avenues to do so that are shut down by GM fiat (for what reason!?).

    The characters are uniformly uninteresting and uncompelling. You neither want to be their friend or are interested in what they have to say. This extends to both the companions and other characters in the game, they all talk a ton but they say nothing of interest, nor are they funny. That Edér, aloth and Pallegina are returning characters says a lot here. Edér was the best of the lot and he was barely above non-offensive in the original.
  • The gameplay is too easy and uniform. You quickly stumble upon some strategy that works for every encounter (perhaps outside of the mega bosses) and the lack of hard counters makes sure you never have to adjust. The game is trivialised on the highest difficulty by like hour 5. There are other issues like engagement, action glut leading to excessive pausing etc. but the lack of difficulty and hard counters is the most glaring because it makes every encounter become the same trivial shit.
  • The new music is straight up bad. I assume this is because they didn’t have a dedicated composer and justin Bell’s meagre abilities were tied up with the late addition of full VA.


There are of course other issues as well, such as wokeness making things stupid but these issues aren’t so bad (although I dread what nu-obsidian writing team comes up with next.

So, what can be done about these things for an possible future game?

  • Hire a competent lead writer, its painfully obvious that Sawyer isn’t up to snuff herding the current obsidian writers. At the same time, the writers aren’t that bad and with proper leadership they could probably turn out passable stuff.
  • Hire a composer, or at the very least give your in house person a realistic chance of producing something decent. Music is important, it affects peoples perception and enjoyment of games to a very large degree, especially casual fans.
  • Overhaul the combat system again. Either make it turn based or try to understand what makes real time games work and try to greatly decrease the required amount of pausing. This is probably a pipedream though seems sawyer will inevitably try to design this.
Is any of this going to happen? most likely not. If they make another game i forsee even worse writing, to the point of being completly unplayable, similar combat system OR maybe a switch to TB and possibly the hiring of an actual composer with microsoft money.
Such a shame.

I agree with most of that, except I'd say Justin Bell is the least of the game's problems. What sort of hate boner do you have against him? I think the music for both games is bloody good, atmospheric and melodic, and always apt for its scene.
 

Riddler

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
2,389
Bubbles In Memoria
the lack of hard counters
What game are you playing, "no hard counters" hasn't applied to Pillars of Eternity since 2.03 of the first game.
One where not a single enemy employs any and I can sleepwalk my way through the game.

It was a long time since I've played Poe 1 but if remember the issue was kind of the opposite after 2.0, you could easily stack immunities using s priest and the enemy would do shitall.
 

Riddler

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
2,389
Bubbles In Memoria
Man, development and performance of this game feels like such a shame and missed opportunity.

I Recently started replaying Deadfire and I’m at once struck by how much this game gets right while at the same time missing key components to make it a truly great and enjoyable game, and instead leaves it an intermittenlty enjoyable but for me ultimately frustrating experience.

On the positive side we have:

  • The graphics, they look great. The backgrounds, the particle effects, the weather effects etc. All this looks amazing. The one nit-pick I have is character models that just look Ok, especially combined with Sawyers realism boner making all the armors looking too similar for the view distance (because they mostly have cloth covering)
  • The quest design is often very good. There are multiple solutions to practically every quest and you can utilise a vast number of abilities in mostly logical ways to solve problems.
  • Great item variety with a tons of different types of equipment and effects. Tons of creativity and variety here even if it visually sometimes blends together a bit and has been somewhat nerfed since release.
  • Reactions and reputations for most things you do.
  • Some of the music is really nice, like the tavern music and the sea chanties, as well as some of the old tracks.


These are big positives and at the first glance this sounds amazing but unfortunately some of the negatives puts a damper on all the positive that has been accomplished.



  • The biggest glaring negative is the poor character writing and the abysmal plot. In such a narrative heavy game as this you can’t fail this badly in these respects. The plot goes nowhere and you have little to no say over what happens, in an RPG! It is good that you can choose whatever faction you want to side with but when the overall plot has such massive implications and you have no means to impact it at all, despite obvious avenues to do so that are shut down by GM fiat (for what reason!?).

    The characters are uniformly uninteresting and uncompelling. You neither want to be their friend or are interested in what they have to say. This extends to both the companions and other characters in the game, they all talk a ton but they say nothing of interest, nor are they funny. That Edér, aloth and Pallegina are returning characters says a lot here. Edér was the best of the lot and he was barely above non-offensive in the original.
  • The gameplay is too easy and uniform. You quickly stumble upon some strategy that works for every encounter (perhaps outside of the mega bosses) and the lack of hard counters makes sure you never have to adjust. The game is trivialised on the highest difficulty by like hour 5. There are other issues like engagement, action glut leading to excessive pausing etc. but the lack of difficulty and hard counters is the most glaring because it makes every encounter become the same trivial shit.
  • The new music is straight up bad. I assume this is because they didn’t have a dedicated composer and justin Bell’s meagre abilities were tied up with the late addition of full VA.


There are of course other issues as well, such as wokeness making things stupid but these issues aren’t so bad (although I dread what nu-obsidian writing team comes up with next.

So, what can be done about these things for an possible future game?

  • Hire a competent lead writer, its painfully obvious that Sawyer isn’t up to snuff herding the current obsidian writers. At the same time, the writers aren’t that bad and with proper leadership they could probably turn out passable stuff.
  • Hire a composer, or at the very least give your in house person a realistic chance of producing something decent. Music is important, it affects peoples perception and enjoyment of games to a very large degree, especially casual fans.
  • Overhaul the combat system again. Either make it turn based or try to understand what makes real time games work and try to greatly decrease the required amount of pausing. This is probably a pipedream though seems sawyer will inevitably try to design this.
Is any of this going to happen? most likely not. If they make another game i forsee even worse writing, to the point of being completly unplayable, similar combat system OR maybe a switch to TB and possibly the hiring of an actual composer with microsoft money.
Such a shame.

I agree with most of that, except I'd say Justin Bell is the least of the game's problems. What sort of hate boner do you have against him? I think the music for both games is bloody good, atmospheric and melodic, and always apt for its scene.
There is some atmospheric music that is decent The tavern music and the city music in neketaka for instance.

The main theme is meh and the new combat tracks are god awful. Most of the actually decent music is from the first game and even that is lacking in various ways that I believe a more competent composer would avoid, even if it is decent.

I'll explain at more length if get the energy, i thought these things were obvious.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,707
One where not a single enemy employs any and I can sleepwalk my way through the game.
Plenty of enemies have immunities to various status afflictions and there are those who apply status afflictions to your party (though this happens more often in the late-game).
 

chuft

Augur
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
519
Yes one of the original criticisms of POE1 was that (don't remember the exact monsters) ghosts were not immune to paralysis, fire elementals were not immune to fire damage etc. so you could go all in on one damage/effect type and it always worked. This was addressed in patches and I think Deadfire never had this problem. I suspect Riddler means something else by "hard counters."
 
Self-Ejected

MajorMace

Self-Ejected
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Joined
May 6, 2018
Messages
2,008
Location
Souffrance, Franka
I don't think he meant something else. There are a few meaningful hard counter-related situations in deadfire, but most of the game is indeed free of those.
I remember vampires being a bitch to handle at high level in the base game. Lich gazes were troublesome. Then some moments in the dlc like the oracle of Wael obviously.

But he's absolutely right that for the biggest part of the game, it's pretty irrelevant, and it's indeed a shame.
Deadfire didn't lack much to be a great seafaring party-based hack n slasher. Mainly, a proper monster stats and abilities tuning. Sawyer was way too conservative here. Even more than in the first game.
Iirc, once you're done in the base game, if you go check the monster sheets, you'll be baffled to witness some absurd shit like lvl 14 dragons, lvl 16 krakens and you'll ponder whether Josh Sawyer cared about the completionists, because it feels like he really didn't.

I can't wrap my head around the fact that, canonically, a pack of fire nagas are far more deadly on paper than a fucking full grown dragon in this game.

First half of the playthrough is very enjoyable, second half washes you with such disappointment that it barely matters in the end.
 

Riddler

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
2,389
Bubbles In Memoria
One where not a single enemy employs any and I can sleepwalk my way through the game.
Plenty of enemies have immunities to various status afflictions and there are those who apply status afflictions to your party (though this happens more often in the late-game).
Let me rephrase then:

The difficulty is so low, even on the highest difficulty with upscaling, that I have not noticed any of this.

You apply the same 3-4 area of effect spells, engage the enemies and blast them with your abilities and spells. Every battle.

You don't have to look at the stats sheets. What is something resistant to? Are they immune to something? Who knows? Who cares? It doesn't impact gameplay.

Perhaps these mechanics are in the game, i wouldn't know, because at no point are you required to learn about any of this, unless you're maybe playing without a party or something. There is a sea of systems but none of them matter in the least because the game is so poorly tuned.
 

Piotrovitz

Savant
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
915
Location
Paris, Texas
Gonna give it another try on POTD - I've had one run few years ago but dropped it around lvl 7-8, due to atrocious loading times (no SSD, yep)
I can't remember shit from that playthrough, didn't get far anyway, so got a few questions:

1. From what I've gathered, with completionist (or semi-completionist) approach I'll end up overlevelled - is there any mod, like IE one for PoE1, that has XP nerf option?
2. Priests seem to be nerfed as fuck - is there a need for one for POTD run? Looking at how the most of the spells have been nerfed compared to PoE1, I guess there's no reason to take one, amirite?
3. I suffer from chronic restart-with-differentr-party-build syndrome, which is leading to burning out and not finishing majority of party-based cRPGS I try - this time I want to plan my build, instead of trying dozen different ones until I'll quit out of boredom. I wanna roll with:

- Eder fighter/rogue
- Aloth wiz
- Pallegina pally/chanter

For MC I'm thinking about glass cannon melee rogue/soulblade, which leaves last slot for someone ranged I guess. Ranger/rogue for DPS? Pure cipher for more CC? Any ideas?

Pls advise.
 

Lios

Cipher
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
435
Problem with POE 2 deeply flawed writing is that it's "F.R.I.E.N.D.S the RPG". Sitcom and adolescent mentality in the words used, the ways people talk, the personal relationships etc. Which is a shame. As for companions, apart from Xoti, no one seemed offensively bad to me. Mostly mediocre. It's just, as per tradition, their quests lack any significant resolution and/or choice-and-consequence ethos.
*As a side note and unpopular opinion, POE 1 companions are fine, great even, if you don't mind the fact that they cannot abandon the party and/or slaughter each other due to differences of ideology.
 

IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,870,558
I've done runs without Priest, definitely don't need one. For the last slot just get Maia I guess.
 

Piotrovitz

Savant
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
915
Location
Paris, Texas
Yeah, will probably go for ranger/cipher or ranger/rogue (though I'll have 3 rogues then, maybe will swap MC for fighter/soulblade instead).
Had Maia on my run years ago - remember I couldn't stand her modern sounding smugness/cynicism, so will probably go with a merc. Then again, most of the companions sufffer from shit-tier edgy writing.

How much into the game you'll hit the level cap?
Is there any mod that bumps up XP requirements for leveling, so I can have a feeling of progress till the end?
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
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Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,902
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
Gonna give it another try on POTD - I've had one run few years ago but dropped it around lvl 7-8, due to atrocious loading times (no SSD, yep)
I can't remember shit from that playthrough, didn't get far anyway, so got a few questions:

1. From what I've gathered, with completionist (or semi-completionist) approach I'll end up overlevelled - is there any mod, like IE one for PoE1, that has XP nerf option?
2. Priests seem to be nerfed as fuck - is there a need for one for POTD run? Looking at how the most of the spells have been nerfed compared to PoE1, I guess there's no reason to take one, amirite?
3. I suffer from chronic restart-with-differentr-party-build syndrome, which is leading to burning out and not finishing majority of party-based cRPGS I try - this time I want to plan my build, instead of trying dozen different ones until I'll quit out of boredom. I wanna roll with:

- Eder fighter/rogue
- Aloth wiz
- Pallegina pally/chanter

For MC I'm thinking about glass cannon melee rogue/soulblade, which leaves last slot for someone ranged I guess. Ranger/rogue for DPS? Pure cipher for more CC? Any ideas?

Pls advise.

Re. 1, there's a popular difficulty mod called Deadly Deadfire that has xp slowdown as part of it. If you don't want all the other tweaks that come with that mod (e.g. level scaling), the author released a standalone xp gain reduction mod. I use Deadly Deadfire so I haven't used that standalone, but I should think it works fine.
 

Piotrovitz

Savant
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
915
Location
Paris, Texas
How soon you reach the cap without any xp nerf if you're completionist?

Is it something like 90% into the game, or more like ~75%?
 

Piotrovitz

Savant
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
915
Location
Paris, Texas
For real?

If so, this is seriously fucked up and I can't see going in without the XP nerf mod.

In PoE1 you could hit the cap about 80% into the game, mainly due to shitload of XP from bounties.
Even in BG1 you hit the ceiling only late game - halfway through sounds like a huge design fuckup.
 

Piotrovitz

Savant
Joined
Dec 21, 2017
Messages
915
Location
Paris, Texas
Re. 1, there's a popular difficulty mod called Deadly Deadfire that has xp slowdown as part of it. If you don't want all the other tweaks that come with that mod (e.g. level scaling), the author released a standalone xp gain reduction mod. I use Deadly Deadfire so I haven't used that standalone, but I should think it works fine.
I'm steam illiterate and stick only to gog, so I'm gonna need some help - how the fuck can this mod be downloaded?

I've tried WorkshopDL app, but it doesn't work. Mod is not on Nexus - is there any way to download/install it on gog version?
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
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Joined
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Messages
7,902
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London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
Re. 1, there's a popular difficulty mod called Deadly Deadfire that has xp slowdown as part of it. If you don't want all the other tweaks that come with that mod (e.g. level scaling), the author released a standalone xp gain reduction mod. I use Deadly Deadfire so I haven't used that standalone, but I should think it works fine.
I'm steam illiterate and stick only to gog, so I'm gonna need some help - how the fuck can this mod be downloaded?

I've tried WorkshopDL app, but it doesn't work. Mod is not on Nexus - is there any way to download/install it on gog version?

There's a tool to download steam mods here. I've never used it, but I think it should be easy enough (though I gather it's not 100%, it works most of the time). Presumably you download the mod from steam then give it a folder name and place it as you would for a Nexus mod in GOG. As I understand it mods are all the same, they just go into different places (the mod folder of the game in whatever way is appropriate for a Nexus mod, or into the Steamlibrary->steamapps->workshop->game numbered mod folder->mod numbered folder for steam mods).

I'd recommend Deadly Deadfire though (which is on Nexus I think). I like Deadfire a lot, but without level scaling it tends to get piss easy towards the end. Level scaling keeps all the fights nice and tough(ish) all the way through, and because Deadfire doesn't have any of the kinds of oddities that give level scaling a bad name (like bandits eventually having ebony armor and that sort of nonsense in Skyrim), it's never psychologically jarring in Deadfire.
 
Last edited:

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
Enemies in Deadfire scale only up to a certain point (I think 4 levels above their original?), so you should definitely use the upscaling option. And yeah, without some kind of xp reduction, it becomes a joke very fast.
 

IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,870,558
Guess so, but it means I'll probably miss some good loot.

Not at all, you can kill everything without missing any loot or content. Just don't hang the bounty to the ship hunters in each port.
 

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