Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Froglok]

Thus spake Volourn, the eternally jaded 40-something video game contrarian

 

[Rake]

Something Awful does not approve of my Suggestion threads :D

SA is a shithole. Sawyer being a regular poster there was one of the first alarm bells.

I see a bunch of Codexers have accounts there. :O To this day I don't understand why people pay to post on SA.

I think most of them did it to stalk Sawyer.

 

[coffeetable]

I see a bunch of Codexers have accounts there. :O To this day I don't understand why people pay to post on SA.

games is a fucking pit. its particularly terrible because badgame skimmed off both the best and the absolute worst posters

e: also because it's got 1500 active users right now which is straight up ridic

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Fun fact about the glorious old BioWare I dug out for ma book:

[...] one interesting anecdote from Baldur's Gate is that no one who worked on that game (peak team size was something like 60 people) had ever before made a video game of any kind before!

Source

And still it worked out better than showering veterans with free money...

The reason why is because they were constrained by D&D rules and lore. Everybody thinks D&D sucks and all nerds fantasize about some system they could design if only they were allowed to show the world their creativity.

The truth is I have to this day never played anything more enjoyable than D&D in a computer game and I have largely given up on the idea that a few nerds could make something better AND make it into a computer game over the course of a couple of years. I think we players would be a lot better off if more people would eat their ego's and allow themselves to be 'constrained' by D&D and focus instead of churning out modules or games using the 30+ years of collective rules and lore that already exist.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Game has permanent death(one should check diff sliders...), no HP regen (stamina regen is ent.different thing...), missing attacks (just not like low level D&D style where you trade unsuccesful blows for a minute).
And combat is only frantic because we start as a 5 lvl nearly full party at firsty. It's not that hard to get used to it. It'll pretty different when we start with only 1-2 characters who are only level 1.
Also any real casuals throw the game (and themselves I hope) from the window after first few battles.

I can't believe that missing in combat is now considered 'grognard', fucking millennials

 

[DefJam101]

SA's not a bad forum at all provided you avoid the sections populated by smug permadebating youtube philosophers. The rest of the site produces quality content.

 

[Lilura]

The truth is I have to this day never played anything more enjoyable than D&D in a computer game and I have largely given up on the idea that a few nerds could make something better AND make it into a computer game over the course of a couple of years.

Fallout, Fallout 2, Arcanum, Bloodlines? I had more fun with these four than any D&D-based computer game.

 

[Lhynn]

The truth is I have to this day never played anything more enjoyable than D&D in a computer game and I have largely given up on the idea that a few nerds could make something better AND make it into a computer game over the course of a couple of years.

Fallout, Fallout 2, Arcanum, Bloodlines? I had more fun with these four than any D&D-based computer game.

Not when it came to combat you didnt. Truth is the mechanics of D20 are pretty solid, and easy to keep track of.
fallout shone because of the richness of its world and the amazing ability the player had to interact with it, arcanum because of its character generation and its writing, bloodlines because of its characters and setting

 

[Lilura]

My point still stands, I guess... But thanks for stating what everyone already knows, Captain Obvious.

 

[Jezal_k23]

So, I have read this whole thing, thought about it a lot, and have finally formed an opinion.

Honestly, thinking that D&D is the one and only system that this game should be based on just seems a little close minded to me. The idea that since D&D is tried and tested, older and even consistently satisfying, doesn't mean to me that a different system can't or shouldn't be used in PoE. To believe so firmly, so undoubtedly that a single system is the right one because it is fun and it works automatically invalidates any other option, and as such there is no need and/or no reason to ever make any change at all, which to me just sounds wrong.

I'm also not saying that everything needs to be revolutionized. New does not necessarily mean better, but it also does not necessarily mean worse.

What I'm saying is that D&D does work, I agree, but PoE's system might also work just as well. It will have its own set of strengths and weaknesses, just like D&D. It will provide a distinct experience and different ways of doing things. It will be fun and satisfying in different ways. It will also be flawed in other different ways. It's very new and it's untested, and we ought to give it this chance so that we can determine its worth. So much of what I read feels like knee jerk reactions to the changes that were presented in this system.

I can respect and understand the opinion of those who wanted it to feel more like IE/D&D does, but personally, I'm just trying to approach the whole thing in the most open minded and level headed manner that I possibly can. I firmly believe that the data and feedback provided by the backer beta will result in a quality gameplay system, even if it does not feel like D&D. Even if it is almost completely different.

As for this thread, I do find the discussion important but I mostly feel that people have been returning to it to make the same remarks and arguments over and over. I've been reading the thread since it started, and I feel I've read most of the same stuff repeatedly. There are a bunch of main points of criticism that are endlessly repeated. Very little is introduced that I'd consider new content at this point. Thankfully the first patch is apparently coming next week, hopefully fixing the major bugs, and from there we can start talking more about how to tweak this system so that it is interesting and solid.

Regardless, I'll keep reading the thread of course, however I do believe that it's very hard to discuss anything about the game in its current unstable, buggy state and when so much stuff is subject to change. PoE's system will certainly be modified in a significant manner from today up until its release.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

It will have its own set of strengths and weaknesses, just like D&D. It will provide a distinct experience and different ways of doing things. It will be fun and satisfying in different ways.

I doubt anyone has a problem with trying a new system in a new game. I guess the fact that this kickstarter was based on nostalgia ('we want to make games like that again!') and mentioned 'BG exploration with IWD combat' gave people the idea that it would be fun and satisfying in similar ways, not different ways. Hardly surprising imo. If you keep namedropping those games to attract pledges then there will be plenty of comparisons to those games.

Perhaps their next kickstarter will be something entirely new and then it will be judged on its own merits not compared to games repeatedly mentioned in its campaign.

 

[mastroego]

I doubt anyone has a problem with trying a new system in a new game. I guess the fact that this kickstarter was based on nostalgia ('we want to make games like that again!') and mentioned 'BG exploration with IWD combat' gave people the idea that it would be fun and satisfying in similar ways, not different ways. Hardly surprising imo. If you keep namedropping those games to attract pledges then there will be plenty of comparisons to those games.

This.
I mean it's so obvious.
Good thing I didn't fall for it, I guess.. still, a pity.

 

[roshan]

redacted

It isn't about it not using DnD or the system not being similar to DnD. The problem is that they have turned over design to someone who actually dislikes BG2 and has proceeded to create his own extremely dumbed down "RPG" system. The problem isn't that the system is new. The problem is that the system is dumbed down with auto resurrection, HP regeneration, no penalties and other mechanics designed for retarded people when their kickstarter pitch was based on nostalgia for the IE games.

Not only that, in their egotism, they have decided to throw away everything that not only worked in the IE games but also in other classic RPGs. Now we have no XP for discovery, combat, spell learning, thieving or anything else except doing exactly what that metadesigning control freak decided we should be doing. Spells that scale with level, no, it makes too much sense that your spells will grow more powerful with you! It's too simulationist! Let's instead make higher level spells identical copies of lower level ones! Then we can implement MMOG per encounter abilites. Petrification means being turned into stone? Fuck that, Greek mythology sucks, besides, that's a HARD effect, our moronic testers say that those suck! In our game petrification is temporary, and you can be poisoned while petrified because we want to show off how GAMIST we can be! STR affecting gun and spell damage makes no sense, of course it doesn't, now fellate our gamist genitalia, fanwhores!!!

 

[Duraframe300]

BTW

http://www.twitch.tv/twitch/c/5027673

2:43 PAX demo

As presented by Jorge Salgado and Rose Gomez

 

[Grotesque]

Maybe he did not know then about Ms. Sarkeesian's work quality but the first time I read about this, I immediately had my doubts for the project.

 

[Duraframe300]

BTW

http://www.twitch.tv/twitch/c/5027673

2:43 PAX demo

As presented by Jorge Salgado and Rose Gomez

It's also build 271. So a bit newer than the backer beta.

 

[J_C]

So, I have read this whole thing, thought about it a lot, and have finally formed an opinion.

Honestly, thinking that D&D is the one and only system that this game should be based on just seems a little close minded to me. The idea that since D&D is tried and tested, older and even consistently satisfying, doesn't mean to me that a different system can't or shouldn't be used in PoE. To believe so firmly, so undoubtedly that a single system is the right one because it is fun and it works automatically invalidates any other option, and as such there is no need and/or no reason to ever make any change at all, which to me just sounds wrong.

I'm also not saying that everything needs to be revolutionized. New does not necessarily mean better, but it also does not necessarily mean worse.

What I'm saying is that D&D does work, I agree, but PoE's system might also work just as well. It will have its own set of strengths and weaknesses, just like D&D. It will provide a distinct experience and different ways of doing things. It will be fun and satisfying in different ways. It will also be flawed in other different ways. It's very new and it's untested, and we ought to give it this chance so that we can determine its worth. So much of what I read feels like knee jerk reactions to the changes that were presented in this system.

I can respect and understand the opinion of those who wanted it to feel more like IE/D&D does, but personally, I'm just trying to approach the whole thing in the most open minded and level headed manner that I possibly can. I firmly believe that the data and feedback provided by the backer beta will result in a quality gameplay system, even if it does not feel like D&D. Even if it is almost completely different.

As for this thread, I do find the discussion important but I mostly feel that people have been returning to it to make the same remarks and arguments over and over. I've been reading the thread since it started, and I feel I've read most of the same stuff repeatedly. There are a bunch of main points of criticism that are endlessly repeated. Very little is introduced that I'd consider new content at this point. Thankfully the first patch is apparently coming next week, hopefully fixing the major bugs, and from there we can start talking more about how to tweak this system so that it is interesting and solid.

Regardless, I'll keep reading the thread of course, however I do believe that it's very hard to discuss anything about the game in its current unstable, buggy state and when so much stuff is subject to change. PoE's system will certainly be modified in a significant manner from today up until its release.

Sure, PoE's system can work, and most of us is not on the opinion of "D&D or nothing". But if this is the best Obsidian can pull of, than most of us would take D&D instead of what we have now. And what we fear is that even after the bugtesting and balancing, we will have a fool proof, boring system, which is not fun. Challenge can come for from a lot of places, mainly from puzzles and combat, but character development should provide a challenge in itself. But the way Sawyer designes this system, I'm almost sure that you can close your eyes at every levelling up, and assign points and skills randomly, and you will still have a viable hero. And if this is not dumbing down, than I don't know what is.

 

[Sensuki]

Jorge's voice

 

[serch]

They made a spaniard speak in english? Foul sorcery. Spanish Inquisition incoming 3,2,..

 

[Sensuki]

That's a new build - v 271

 

[J_C]

BTW

http://www.twitch.tv/twitch/c/5027673

2:43 PAX demo

As presented by Jorge Salgado and Rose Gomez

It's also build 271. So a bit newer than the backer beta.

It's funny how much more fun the game looks, when it is played by someone who doesn't suck. Sorry Adam, but this chick plays so much better than you.

 

[Sensuki]

It's still not playing right though is it, the feel of combat is just off. If everyone's just going to send the Fighter in to tank and have everyone sit back and cast nukes that is banal gameplay at it's finest.

 

[J_C]

It's still not playing right though is it, the feel of combat is just off. If everyone's just going to send the Fighter in to tank and have everyone sit back and cast nukes that is banal gameplay at it's finest.

I think it is just that the demo area has basic encounter design. I certainly hope that if the enemy group has a more varied team, then this basic tactic won't be viable.

 

[Semper]

It's still not playing right though is it, the feel of combat is just off. If everyone's just going to send the Fighter in to tank and have everyone sit back and cast nukes that is banal gameplay at it's finest.

I think it is just that the demo area has basic encounter design. I certainly hope that if the enemy group has a more varied team, then this basic tactic won't be viable.

plus it's on easy. try this on hard and watch how your fighter goes down in seconds - at least if you don't abuse the faulty ai
also right at the second encounter the druid and cleric join the melee.

btw looks like they got most annoying thing right - chars won't stack anymore if they try to reach the same space.

 

[Bonerbill]

It's still not playing right though is it, the feel of combat is just off. If everyone's just going to send the Fighter in to tank and have everyone sit back and cast nukes that is banal gameplay at it's finest.

Isn't this how the beginning of BG1 start out?