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Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Infinitron

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The problem with Sensuki's work is that he's probably not doing anything that Sawyer hasn't already tried, with the added benefit of being able to actually implement and test it to see if it actually works.

Suggesting individual ideas that the folks at Obsidian may have missed is one thing, but the chances of coming up with a fan-made "total combat system overhaul" that Obsidian would prefer over their own are slim.

I doubt it.

Any person has their own unique view and its more than possible that Sensuki mentions things that haven't been considered a lot previously. Sawyer and Cain are only two people. That's why feedback is so important. Even if you don't want to adapt everything suggested, it leads to discussions and possible solutions.

Thats why constructive critisism is great and shitposting is bad.

As I said, ideas, "views", and other broad strokes-type feedback can be helpful.

Overhauling entire systems from scratch down to the tiniest detail, without being able to test them? Less likely to be helpful...unless you're angling for a job or something.

Not that I want to discourage Sensuki, of course. If this is his way of coming up with ideas, then let it be so.
 
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There's a tricky aspect to damage output that should always be considered, which is the fact that increased damage output does not always result in enemies going down more quickly. Against any given enemy, it will take a number of damage-inflicting actions (which each take a certain amount of time) to reduce the target's Stamina to 0. Even using dead average damage rolls, there will be many cases where increased damage will not result in the enemy being dropped in fewer actions.

E.g. let's say the enemy has 100 Stamina. Each attack you make does 15 Damage on average, and for convenient math let's assume no DT on the enemy. It will take seven attacks to make that enemy go down. But let's say you get a 10% bonus to damage. It will still take seven attacks to make the enemy go down. Or let's say the enemy has 50 Stamina and you do 18 Damage on average. It will take 3 attacks. With a 20% bonus to damage, it will still take 3 attacks. With a 35% bonus, it will still take 3 attacks. Only when you get to about 40%+ does it actually result in fewer actions/less time to drop that target.

Currently, 8 points of Might is worth 16% additional damage. It can certainly make a difference, but it is not an overwhelming advantage and there are a lot of situations where it that margin does not actually make the battle end more quickly. Interrupts do need more work to make their mechanics more transparent and obviously beneficial, but that's just something to consider.

I think part of the problem here is that game design in general has become way to intellectualized. The quote above is from a person who has become completely obsessed with systems and game design efficiency as if efficiency of design were a worthwhile goal in and of itself. It feels like a person who wants everybody to know how smart he is as he over analyzes the entire process and forgets the purpose of games in the first place. He seems more interested in designing an elegant system than providing an interesting and granular world to explore.

The reason looking at games in this manner is not fun is because it makes the player too aware he is playing a game at every moment. He wants to ask at each moment WHAT ARE YOU REALLY DOING!!!???

For instance when you are having a RPG battle. He breaks it down into its little isolated parts and ultimately can only come to the realization that you are just pressing a button and engaging in a time sink. Basically he has analyzed RPG systems to such a degree that he is constantly experiencing an existential crises by being overly aware of each action he is taking when playing any game. Anybody who analyzed games in this manner might come to have this same crises at some point.

As an example of where this type of thinking can lead I think one need not look any further than the hit/miss debate that has come about over the last 10-20 years. People like Josh over think the situation and come to this logical sounding ( but ultimately not very fun) outcome:

'Why do we have misses in RPG's? Since a miss and a hit can be averaged into two lower damage hits or even broken down into damage per second why use the miss mechanic since it only seems to frustrate new players and hurt their feelings'

Averaging everything out creates less differences in each result which promotes blandness, but more than that to over think each mechanical process simply saps the fun out of playing the game in the first place. Josh is experiencing being too involved, knowledgeable and aware of gaming systems and I think in a way he is wondering if playing games is really just a waste of time and ultimately pointless. It feels like perhaps he wants us to become aware of this fact as well? I am not sure, but I think it is possible a 12 year old boy with no PHD in game systems might be able to design something that is ultimately more fun than some of the systems modern balanced obsessed professionals would. I know for myself that D&D is still the most fun system I have played in a RPG to date, but supposedly D&D sucks I hear.

This feels somewhat similar to the clash of design principles that happens in board games between slick, refined and ultimately sort of bland euro game design philosophies and the more detailed, granular and unbalanced systems preferred by many war gamers etc.. I always tend to side with the more complex systems, even if when you break them down they are 'pointless'.

IMO the ultimate game designer would be able to take many very unbalanced and chaotic systems, mechanics, items and powers etc..and then combine them into a world or game that was ultimately challenging and engaging as an entire entity. Each system, class or mechanic need not (and IMO SHOULD not) be balanced between themselves, that is boring. I think maybe they are trying to balance the wrong things?
 

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Overhauling entire systems from scratch down to the tiniest detail, without being able to test them?

You might be assuming I'm significantly changing things, when I'm actually not.

I'm not trying to suggest to turn PE into Fallout (for example), I'm taking the current mechanics and tweaking them a bit. I'm also not like "it has to be this way" - I want a robust system that meets the design goals that also plays like an Infinity Engine game. Some of the stuff I've thought of I've had/having second thoughts about due to realizations/further investigation and things other people have said.

After seeing the Interrupt mechanics I thought ... hey I'll have a go at re-designing those. However the way that they are already set up is pretty good. What could be done though is display the raw values to the player so that they can actually interact with the mechanics. Currently they're obscured.

And the stuff I was talking about on Steam the other day I've also had second thoughts about. I do think that the recovery time system is not right atm, but I think I'll wait to play the next patch for deciding how much faster I think combat should be. I have suggestions on how to intuitively convey the action speed mechanics to the player as well. I think adding +50% recovery time to three weapon styles is less intuitive than just making two weapon style faster. If that makes it too fast - slow down the recovery time a bit and make it not double the animation by default ... that would actually bring the weapon system in line with ranged weapons and make it unified :lol:.

I also have a pretty solid set of attributes worked out ... only slightly different from the spreads I've been posting about before, but this time I have the maths and logic to back it up and possibly convey that it could be the direction to go in. I don't want to post them yet though, because I'd prefer to wait to have DPS graphs and stuff to go with it, as well as finalize the rest of my ideas. Every attribute is useful for every class, there are no dump stats and there are two offensive, two defensive and two mixed attributes (with applications for both).

It does however break one of Josh's design constraints on the attribute system (technically two) but I think that's inevitable if the design goals want to be reached without resorting to some retarded solution such as 2 second interrupt stuns.

IMO the ultimate game designer would be able to take many very unbalanced and chaotic systems, mechanics, items and powers etc..and then combine them into a world or game that was ultimately challenging and engaging as an entire entity. Each system, class or mechanic need not (and IMO SHOULD not) be balanced between themselves, that is boring. I think maybe they are trying to balance the wrong things?

I agree about that. This approach combined with transparency would be really fun.
 

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I know for myself that D&D is still the most fun system I have played in a RPG to date
You should try other games.

IMO WFRP (2nd edition - I have not played 3rd ed.) is more fun, scales better at higher 'levels' and is a bit less susceptible to powergaming (although can still be abused and minmaxed if someone gets a kick from that). Its main weakness is that the mechanics are quite tied to the setting and therefore much less universal than D20.

I would love a proper (turn-based) WFRP CRPG. Maybe if UK gets a studio like Daedalic some day... One can dream.

EDIT: looking forward to reading your suggestions, Sensuki. :)
 

tuluse

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I think interrupts would be fixed, or at least improved, with better feedback, especially visual. If you actually saw enemies getting stunned, that would make it much better.
 

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Well hit reactions in the IE games were obvious, I think the PE animation is just not that great, plus I think it might be slightly too short. One thing that punctuated hit reactions in the IE games was the blood spatter/audio feedback AND voice sets crying "UGH" when they got hit.

PE doesn't have any of that yet.
 

Zed

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it could work like selecting pets and summons in BG2.

You mean all the IE games right? Where you either select their selection circle or click select all?
yes.
I chose BG2 because it does everything the best of all IE games.
I don't see why you must have a portrait. it's not like the pet has any active skills... does it?
 
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I know for myself that D&D is still the most fun system I have played in a RPG to date
You should try other games.

IMO WFRP (2nd edition - I have not played 3rd ed.) is more fun, scales better at higher 'levels' and is a bit less susceptible to powergaming (although can still be abused and minmaxed if someone gets a kick from that). Its main weakness is that the mechanics are quite tied to the setting and therefore much less universal than D20.

I would love a proper (turn-based) WFRP CRPG. Maybe if UK gets a studio like Daedalic some day... One can dream.

EDIT: looking forward to reading your suggestions, Sensuki. :)

I have played Pen and Paper RPG's that were as fun or more fun than D&D, like I remember playing Runequest way back when and it was in many ways better, also the rolemaster system was fun... I do not think D&D is completely awesome so much as I am not sure its worth the time and effort to try and re-create a whole new system and make it into a video game in 2-3 years. Most efforts to fix D&D seem to actually just make it worse or create new problems and in the end it usually seems like if the effort were spent on just improving the game engine or creating a module/adventure in the already created system instead of on trying to make some new system from scratch that everybody would be better off.

How many modules/adventures could we have, and how good could an IE engine be if instead of creating dragon age, lionheart, PoE etc during the last 15 years...they just kept improving the IE engine and turning out more adventures/modules using the D20 rule set?
 

mastroego

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Averaging everything out creates less differences in each result which promotes blandness, but more than that to over think each mechanical process simply saps the fun out of playing the game in the first place. Josh is experiencing being too involved, knowledgeable and aware of gaming systems and I think in a way he is wondering if playing games is really just a waste of time and ultimately pointless. It feels like perhaps he wants us to become aware of this fact as well? I am not sure, but I think it is possible a 12 year old boy with no PHD in game systems might be able to design something that is ultimately more fun than some of the systems modern balanced obsessed professionals would. I know for myself that D&D is still the most fun system I have played in a RPG to date, but supposedly D&D sucks I hear.

Someone mentioned earlier that the BG2 development team was composed by first-timers.
Not sure if true, but it would actually go a long way into explaining why it was possibly the best crpg ever.
... and why PoE will be among the worst.

It's just a personal "bet" at this point, but my feeling is that after the initial wide-spread infatuation with the game (which there will be - thanks to PoE superficially looking like BG2 - and which will last a while) people will start to perceive its shallowness (except for the most stalwart Sawyer's apologists of course) and they'll shelve it never to play it again.

It won't spur any "religion" wars: being simply a boring game, it will just be forgotten.
 

Duraframe300

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It's just a personal "bet" at this point, but my feeling is that after the initial wide-spread infatuation with the game (which there will be - thanks to PoE superficially looking like BG2 - and which will last a while) people will start to perceive its shallowness (except for the most stalwart Sawyer's apologists of course) and they'll shelve it never to play it again.

It won't spur any "religion" wars: being simply a boring game, it will just be forgotten.

I'll take that bet.

I actually propose that it will be better recieved long-term than at release.
 

coffeetable

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Averaging everything out creates less differences in each result which promotes blandness, but more than that to over think each mechanical process simply saps the fun out of playing the game in the first place. Josh is experiencing being too involved, knowledgeable and aware of gaming systems and I think in a way he is wondering if playing games is really just a waste of time and ultimately pointless. It feels like perhaps he wants us to become aware of this fact as well? I am not sure, but I think it is possible a 12 year old boy with no PHD in game systems might be able to design something that is ultimately more fun than some of the systems modern balanced obsessed professionals would. I know for myself that D&D is still the most fun system I have played in a RPG to date, but supposedly D&D sucks I hear.

Someone mentioned earlier that the BG2 development team was composed by first-timers.
Not sure if true, but it would actually go a long way into explaining why it was possibly the best crpg ever.
... and why PoE will be among the worst.

It's just a personal "bet" at this point, but my feeling is that after the initial wide-spread infatuation with the game (which there will be - thanks to PoE superficially looking like BG2 - and which will last a while) people will start to perceive its shallowness (except for the most stalwart Sawyer's apologists of course) and they'll shelve it never to play it again.

It won't spur any "religion" wars: being simply a boring game, it will just be forgotten.
quotin for posterity
 

Infinitron

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I wish this guy would stop obsessing over BG2. BG2 this, BG2 that.

He seems to think there are millions of Baldur's Gate 2 fanboys out there that specifically want a game that's just like BG2, and will reject everything else, even if it's a perfectly good general Infinity Engine-style experience.

Show us these hoards of BG2 cultists that will make this game fail, mastroego
 

Semper

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It won't spur any "religion" wars: being simply a boring game, it will just be forgotten.

good thing is that at least in this worst case scenario obsidian is able to hand over the unity project files to the community.
 

aleph

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He seems to think there are millions of Baldur's Gate 2 fanboys out there that specifically want a game that's just like BG2, and will reject everything else, even if it's a perfectly good general Infinity Engine-style experience.

Problem is, with PE we are not going to get a good Infinity Engine style experience but the MOBA style experience
 

coffeetable

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He seems to think there are millions of Baldur's Gate 2 fanboys out there that specifically want a game that's just like BG2, and will reject everything else, even if it's a perfectly good general Infinity Engine-style experience.

Problem is, with PE we are not going to get a good Infinity Engine style experience but the MOBA style experience
you mean the symmetric map, the roster of heroes, or the creepwaves?
 
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He seems to think there are millions of Baldur's Gate 2 fanboys out there that specifically want a game that's just like BG2, and will reject everything else, even if it's a perfectly good general Infinity Engine-style experience.

Problem is, with PE we are not going to get a good Infinity Engine style experience but the MOBA style experience
you mean the symmetric map, the roster of heroes, or the creepwaves?
he means balance:smug:
 

agris

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Sensuki in your probing of the game's files, can you tell if there is a unique string to set the item's art in the item description window? Currently, the inventory icon is used. I'm wondering if that is hard-coded into the item file properties, or if there is a string indicating what art is used for the item description.
 

Sensuki

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I believe it's in the item file.

I did manage to pull the code from an item file, but I didn't keep it. I *think* that the item file points to a GUID for the specific image, not directly to an image file.

That might be how you code for Unity's file system, instead of using file locations, every asset is referenced with a GUID and you just point to the GUID to find it.

Read a massive spoiler by accident today :negative:

I don't see why you must have a portrait. it's not like the pet has any active skills... does it?

Lions have a roar. Not sure about the others. Pet actives would be p. cool tho
Even DotA 2 has a portrait for summons.

I think it's just an ease of use thing.
 
Last edited:

aleph

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He seems to think there are millions of Baldur's Gate 2 fanboys out there that specifically want a game that's just like BG2, and will reject everything else, even if it's a perfectly good general Infinity Engine-style experience.

Problem is, with PE we are not going to get a good Infinity Engine style experience but the MOBA style experience
you mean the symmetric map, the roster of heroes, or the creepwaves?

not literally, but PE will likely have the same feel
 

Arkeus

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The problem with Sensuki's work is that he's probably not doing anything that Sawyer hasn't already tried, with the added benefit of being able to actually implement and test it to see if it actually works.

Keep in mind that while designing something you are so immersed that it becomes harder and harder to have an overall view on it and know whether something is good or not.

Different people and different viewpoints, especially if they are well-constructed, are really, really helpful to break you out of that.
 

agris

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I believe it's in the item file.

I did manage to pull the code from an item file, but I didn't keep it. I *think* that the item file points to a GUID for the specific image, not directly to an image file.

That might be how you code for Unity's file system, instead of using file locations, every asset is referenced with a GUID and you just point to the GUID to find it.

I'm not sure what you mean, is the GUID like a lookup table, referencing an asset packed into the unity filesystem? Can't tell from your reply if setting an item's icon automatically sets the item art, or if that's set separately.
 

Sensuki

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globally_unique_identifier

For instance the GUID for Calisca's voice set is "CAB-b26cea8844c42a44f82aeb8826c12e15"

There is a master file that lists all of the GUIDs (I'm not sure if it's per resource or not, but when I was snooping I found a whopping file with hundreds of thousands of lines of GUIDs) and I assume that you just point to the GUID in the master file and that gives the location of the asset.
 

Rake

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IMO the ultimate game designer would be able to take many very unbalanced and chaotic systems, mechanics, items and powers etc..and then combine them into a world or game that was ultimately challenging and engaging as an entire entity. Each system, class or mechanic need not (and IMO SHOULD not) be balanced between themselves, that is boring. I think maybe they are trying to balance the wrong things?
:salute:
 

Hormalakh

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I think part of the problem here is that game design in general has become way to intellectualized. The quote above is from a person who has become completely obsessed with systems and game design efficiency as if efficiency of design were a worthwhile goal in and of itself. It feels like a person who wants everybody to know how smart he is as he over analyzes the entire process and forgets the purpose of games in the first place. He seems more interested in designing an elegant system than providing an interesting and granular world to explore.


I didn't read the rest of this post, but I'm going to assume this is your thesis. Your argument is flawed because JES's job is to be a systems designer in the game. If he doesn't intellectualize this stuff, who will? The job of creative design is to come up with creative stuff, not JES's job.

It might seem like I'm defending the dude, but I'm really not. All I'm saying is that JES gets paid to do exactly what it is you're complaining about. If you have issues with creativity, your issue is with MCA et al.
 

mastroego

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I'll take that bet.

I actually propose that it will be better recieved long-term than at release.
It wouldn't be fair otherwise, I said it'll be well received at first.
I've also argued that the major drawback of a "balanced" and "averaged" system is the dis-incentive in another playthrough, since the experience won't be diversified enough.

I wish this guy
Hey I'm here

would stop obsessing over BG2. BG2 this, BG2 that.
As I've said more than once:

1.
I'm not the one who banked on BG2 nostalgia to finance my game. That was Sawyer.

2.
I would be perfectly fine with an entirely new system as long as it were imaginative and fun-oriented as BG2 was, thus qualifying as a legitimate "spiritual successor". But Sawyer seems more interested in "judging" and controlling the player than giving him fun things to do and elements to joyfully experiment with.

Anyway, I'll just sit back and see what happens now (long term, as above!)
 

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