Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Seari]

They should make a laser beam animation come out of your character's eyes when you make a disengagement attack.

10/10 GOTY

 

[polo]

I wish i could try the beta so i could make a decent opinion about this. I can't really say much just by reading how it works. If you don't abuse the shit out of it, how bad combat is? Is it challenging, or its just silly and makes you wanna abuse the shit out of it?

 

[Shevek]

After the last patch, most are enjoying the beta's combat. Other than a few balance issues and bugs, the game is feeling like it will be damn good on release overall (combat, setting, dialogue, etc). I am sure this exploit will be easily addressed as soon as the devs acknowledge it.

 

[Hormalakh]

After the last patch, most are enjoying the beta's combat. Other than a few balance issues and bugs, the game is feeling like it will be damn good on release overall (combat, setting, dialogue, etc). I am sure this exploit will be easily addressed as soon as the devs acknowledge it.

until the next exploit. and the next and the next.

 

[Hormalakh]

I wish i could try the beta so i could make a decent opinion about this. I can't really say much just by reading how it works. If you don't abuse the shit out of it, how bad combat is? Is it challenging, or its just silly and makes you wanna abuse the shit out of it?

as for your question: I didn't try to abuse the combat system, but it is very frustrating that once you get "tagged" by an opponent, you're basically stuck there. no amount of "escaping" or anything will save you. the engagement mechanic also screws up a lot of the actions you try to give your characters because of how it's actually implemented.

what happens is that as soon as you're engaged, your last command is canceled and you are automatically "aggro-ed." So your character suddenly auto-attacks the engager. And then if you try to run away, you're hit by a AoO and you get interrupted (so you can't run away). This gives your opponent time to engage you again. And the cycle repeats itself, until you tell yourself, "well, if I'm going to go down, I might as well hurt the guy."

I've tried using my thief to scout ahead and many times if he gets spotted, that's it. He's dead. His escape ability really doesn't give him much of a chance of running away if he's engaged by more than one guy. Not much of an escape if you ask me.

You do lose a lot of the positioning and tactical movement that happened in IE games during combat. Basically, positioning in this game all comes down to initial positioning. You set up your pieces where you want (with scouting or whatever) and you just stay there.

 

[Seari]

Engagement is shit, but it's not the only problem with the combat. The attack resolution system makes the combat awful. They need to increase miss chance or something.

 

[LizardWizard]

I wish i could try the beta so i could make a decent opinion about this. I can't really say much just by reading how it works. If you don't abuse the shit out of it, how bad combat is? Is it challenging, or its just silly and makes you wanna abuse the shit out of it?

Ran through entire beta on Hard and then PathofDamned without any intentional engagement abuse. Hard was just way too fucking easy.. cleared practically everything (save the lion den area) in 4 rests - two camping supplies you start with, one 200gp inn stay and another camping supply I found in the dungeon. BB fighter was the only one that went down and only once but that was just me lazily not using pause tbh.

PoD was much more slow going and brutal, but alot of that is probably due to how undergeared the party is. Every 2-4 encounters I'd be in bad shape and near empty on spells with party members dropping quickly due to crazy spike damage. I had fun anyways, despite the engagement issues.

 

[Shevek]

After the last patch, most are enjoying the beta's combat. Other than a few balance issues and bugs, the game is feeling like it will be damn good on release overall (combat, setting, dialogue, etc). I am sure this exploit will be easily addressed as soon as the devs acknowledge it.

until the next exploit. and the next and the next.

I didnt know you could tell the future. You must have hated the IE games. They had way more ways to trvialize combat than this.

 

[Hormalakh]

For me, the game is fun despite the combat. It's kind of borderline PS:T at the moment. It does it have occasional moments where I'm like "ok what should I do next?" but more often than not, I just try to avoid combat and see if I can get around the maps without having to suffer through it. A very different feel than how either IWD was or the BGs were.

 

[Hormalakh]

I didnt know you could tell the future. You must have hated the IE games. They had way more ways to trvialize combat than this.

PoE's past determines its future.

Also at hating IE. I just installed BGT last night and am going through the game again because I would much rather play that game for the thousandth time than PoE: the marks of a true classic.

 

[Infinitron]

For me, the game is fun despite the combat. It's kind of borderline PS:T at the moment. It does it have occasional moments where I'm like "ok what should I do next?" but more often than not, I just try to avoid combat and see if I can get around the maps without having to suffer through it. A very different feel than how either IWD was or the BGs were.

There are a lot of people who feel this way about RTwP combat in general.

Poor Josh. I wouldn't be surprised if by going RTwP, he thought he would be completely side-stepping the "insane CRPG grognard" demographic. What he didn't realize is that in addition to the group of people who like RTwP, and the group of people who hate RTwP, there's also a third group - the group of people who hate RTwP EXCEPT when it's done in a very specific way they've gotten used to.

 

[Shevek]

Yes, playing a finished, patched and repatched game (actually 2 games and 2 expansions) with a host of well developed mods is more enjoyable than playing a buggy beta of a single area of another game. Amazing.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Poor Josh. I wouldn't be surprised if by going RTwP, he thought he would be completely side-stepping the "insane CRPG grognard" demographic.

Yes, poor Josh. After all the times he's shat on other games and other systems... now he's got people giving his work the same treatment. I blame the insane grognards.

 

[Athelas]

There are a lot of people who feel this way about RTwP combat in general.

Poor Josh. I wouldn't be surprised if by going RTwP, he thought he would be completely side-stepping the "insane CRPG grognard" demographic.

I don't think such a demographic really exists outside of the Codex, and if it exists only on the Codex, it's too small to speak of.

What he didn't realize is thup - the group of people who hate RTwP EXCEPT when it's done in a very specific way they've gotten used to.

It may have something to do with getting funded based on promises of making a game just like those games (the IE games).

 

[Shevek]

He said it would feel like the IE games not be exactly like the IE games . Its not his fault some folks have poor reading comprehension.

 

[Infinitron]

There are a lot of people who feel this way about RTwP combat in general.

Poor Josh. I wouldn't be surprised if by going RTwP, he thought he would be completely side-stepping the "insane CRPG grognard" demographic.

I don't think such a demographic really exists outside of the Codex.

What he didn't realize is thup - the group of people who hate RTwP EXCEPT when it's done in a very specific way they've gotten used to.

It may have something to do with getting funded based on promises of making a game just like those games (the IE games).

Sure, but I do wonder if there was ever a belief in Obsidian's minds that "eh, RTwP RPG players don't have high standards, they'll accept anything". Like, if it had been a turn-based game, Josh would have been more conservative to avoid angering a more demanding fanbase.

 

[Athelas]

Sure, but I do wonder if there was ever a belief in Obsidian's minds that "eh, RTwP RPG players don't have high standards, they'll accept anything". Like, if it had been a turn-based game, Josh would have been more conservative to avoid angering a more demanding fanbase.

I don't think there's such a clear split. Outside of the Codex, RPG fans generally don't really seem to put much critical thought into whether a game is turn-based or RTwP as long as the usual RPG staples are present (stats, classes, skills, etc.) - just look at the praise for Divinity: Original Sin being a 'modern Baldur's Gate'. The issue only exists when you pitch something very specific - i.e. a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate, Fallout or Torment.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

This thread needs more DraQ; who'd ever know that an overly gamey solution to punish breaking ranks using automatic attacks manifesting out of nowhere would end up being silly and exploitable B).

Wouldn't implementing facing combined with non-instantaneous rotation movements be a way of addressing the problems of kiting and chasing squishy targets better? You could keep fighters' status as line-holders by giving them bigger damage and to hit bonusses against exposed flanks/backs (e.g. a fast rogue could run past a fighter to get to the mage he's guarding, but the fighter would still get in 1 or 2 very damaging hits to his flank/back as he's passing, and more if he chases him and keeps hitting his back as he engages the mage).

Facing might be a bit finicky in rtwp, but the current system with weird engagement indicators seems a lot more finicky to begin with.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't think there's such a clear split. Outside of the Codex, RPG fans generally don't really seem to put much critical thought into whether a game is turn-based or RTwP

That may or may not be true, but Obsidian's senior staff might not be aware of it. They are, after all, oldschool RPGers too.

 

[Sensuki]

I don't think it's unfair to say that the RTwP combat in NWN/KotOR/Dragon Age is not good. That's a pretty fucking universal opinion tbh.

The Infinity Engine games did it well, 7.62 High Caliber did it well, Aarklash Legacy combat feels very good, but the associated system design lets it down a bit.

There aren't heaps of RTwP games and not too many RTwP RPGs so it's not difficult to be able to draw a thick line between the good and the bad.

 

[Infinitron]

I know there are people who like Dragon Age: Origin's basic combat "feel" and flow. Some even like it more than the IE games' feel and flow. Probably has something to do with its non-round based nature leading to a less fidgety "wtf are my guys doing I don't feel in control" experience.

The actual systems and mechanics not as much.

 

[tuluse]

This thread needs more DraQ; who'd ever know that an overly gamey solution to punish breaking ranks using automatic attacks manifesting out of nowhere would end up being silly and exploitable B).

Wouldn't implementing facing combined with non-instantaneous rotation movements be a way of addressing the problems of kiting and chasing squishy targets better? You could keep fighters' status as line-holders by giving them bigger damage and to hit bonusses against exposed flanks/backs (e.g. a fast rogue could run past a fighter to get to the mage he's guarding, but the fighter would still get in 1 or 2 very damaging hits to his flank/back as he's passing, and more if he chases him and keeps hitting his back as he engages the mage).

Facing might be a bit finicky in rtwp, but the current system with weird engagement indicators seems a lot more finicky to begin with.

Think about trying to control facing in Baldur's Gate for 5 minutes and tell me how you think it will work.

I don't think it's unfair to say that the RTwP combat in NWN/KotOR/Dragon Age is not good. That's a pretty fucking universal opinion tbh.

The Infinity Engine games did it well, 7.62 High Caliber did it well, Aarklash Legacy combat feels very good, but the associated system design lets it down a bit.

There aren't heaps of RTwP games and not too many RTwP RPGs so it's not difficult to be able to draw a thick line between the good and the bad.

Dragon Age has problems with boring systems (cooldowns, mana/endurance, general coolness of spells), but the combat itself was fine imo.

 

[Ninjerk]

This thread needs more DraQ; who'd ever know that an overly gamey solution to punish breaking ranks using automatic attacks manifesting out of nowhere would end up being silly and exploitable B).

Wouldn't implementing facing combined with non-instantaneous rotation movements be a way of addressing the problems of kiting and chasing squishy targets better? You could keep fighters' status as line-holders by giving them bigger damage and to hit bonusses against exposed flanks/backs (e.g. a fast rogue could run past a fighter to get to the mage he's guarding, but the fighter would still get in 1 or 2 very damaging hits to his flank/back as he's passing, and more if he chases him and keeps hitting his back as he engages the mage).

Facing might be a bit finicky in rtwp, but the current system with weird engagement indicators seems a lot more finicky to begin with.

It's like that thing DotA was talking about.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Think about trying to control facing in Baldur's Gate for 5 minutes and tell me how you think it will work.

I'm not sure if you would need to "control" facing as long as you are attacking the opponent you would most want to avoid hitting you in the flank/back, which is exactly what Sawyer is trying to incentivize. What type of scenario are you thinking about? If you're swarmed by gnolls it doesn't matter which way you are facing, tho you are given an added incentive to avoid getting surrounded.

 

[tuluse]

I'm not sure if you would need to "control" facing as long as you are attacking the opponent you would most want to avoid hitting you in the flank/back, which is exactly what Sawyer is trying to incentivize. What type of scenario are you thinking about? If you're swarmed by gnolls it doesn't matter which way you are facing, tho you are given an added incentive to avoid getting surrounded.

IE style combat gets kind of messy if you hadn't noticed. Making specific positioning too important will just be annoying.