Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Copper]

I'm not sure if you would need to "control" facing as long as you are attacking the opponent you would most want to avoid hitting you in the flank/back, which is exactly what Sawyer is trying to incentivize. What type of scenario are you thinking about? If you're swarmed by gnolls it doesn't matter which way you are facing, tho you are given an added incentive to avoid getting surrounded.

IE style combat gets kind of messy if you hadn't noticed. Making specific positioning too important will just be annoying.

I dunno about that - think Company of Hero's tanks, which had a lot more armour on the front, but could be disabled quite quickly by light AP weapons from the rear. Ain't no pause and issue orders in CoH either, although undoubtedly the fact that everything is ranged combat has a huge impact in making positioning clearer than a melee ball of death.

An essential feature would be that, like tanks, characters can move independent of the direction they attack in so they don't randomly turn their back on 2 guys to target someone running past them. Characters face towards the closest enemy by default, say, with a bunch of other conditions for situational use, but can attack anyone in a 270 arc around them, leaving only their back non-threatening (except for special attacks, etc, like a 'Reverse Thrust'. So you can back away and attack, have your two tanks go back-to-back as a saved formation or make a shield wall in a chokepoint, etc.

Obviously tanks are far more expendable than party members, but that's just tweaking the math, and adding gamist features such as traits that do status effects such as half movement, stunned for one action etc on crits or hits to the back so they don't need to do a huge chunk of damage to be useful.

 

[Liston]

Some DotA style micro abuse with Cautious attack, fuck it up with the first few attacks though



lol

Would be much better with 2H weapons though.

Obviously there is a need for a cooldowns to those abilities.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Actually short cooldowns are a good idea for modal abilities.

 

[Sensuki]

Josh on item/spell descriptions

BMac and I will be making a pass on the layout of stats in items and spells. There's still a lot of strange formatting and redundant or irrelevant information.

 

[Abu Antar]

^That's good to know. Haven't liked how it has been so far.

 

[Sensuki]

Obsidian's solution for Engagement abuse is

In the next BB update, you should see the following changes:

* Defender no longer increases Engagement range. It was the only ability in the game that allowed an increased Engagement range, so with this change, all Engagement ranges will be the same.

* When a character breaks Engagement from a defender, they go on a list for that defender of "recently Engaged". The defender is prevented from re-Engaging that target for a constant amount of time. We will adjust this constant until it feels appropriate.

Not quite related, but connected to an issue that Sensuki highlighted: AIs were not updating their targeting preferences (of any sort) while moving, which made kiting extremely easy. In the next BB update, moving AIs will periodically re-evaluate targeting preferences within a narrow range of time. We will tune that time range as necessary and, if other common exploits become obvious, we will consider how to address them. However, a micro-oriented player with a party of high movement characters devoted to kiting presents, if not an unsolvable problem, one where investing serious programming time to it has diminishing returns.

Standard engagement range and better AI targeting will prevent some of the abuse, but not all. You should technically still be able to get a round of disengagement attacks by drawing a melee mob into a clump of characters. As you saw in my videos, I achieved ridiculous carnage with 3 Barbarians and 3 Rogues. Engagement cooldowns will limit them to 1 disengagement attack per character, but if I do 3 Fighters with Hold the Line, that's still potentially 3 disengagement attacks per character.

In practice, characters advance asynchronously in the game because you acquire companions at different times. They don't in the Backer Beta because all of your BB companions are given to you with equal experience at the same level. Obviously there are cases where some party members will advance together because MATH but that also happens in the original IE games if characters are created/acquired together and share an advancement table. In 2nd Ed., the following groups shared XP tables: paladins/rangers, thief/bard, and fighter/druid up to a point. There are also a lot of coinciding values across tables. E.g. 20,000 and 90,000 are shared by druids and wizards, 750,000 is shared by fighters and wizards, 40,000 is shared by wizards, thieves, and bards.

IME, you get a slightly higher rate of coincidental simultaneous leveling in PoE than you do in IWD, but I've never seen more than three characters leveling at once in the main game (though that situation could certainly be engineered by creating an entire party of adventurers simultaneously). Usually characters advance individually or two at a time.

Some more AI targeting info

There are more monsters than just the stone beetles that have teleport abilities, but not a ton of them. In lieu of teleporting creatures, ranged enemies often target spellcasters or low DT/low-Deflection characters above all other enemies (according to QA it's a little too nasty right now in some spots).

has QA tried kiting those enemies?

On combat log:

I think there are a lot of good suggestions in here. One of the most persistent bugs in our combat log is resetting to the top instead of going to the bottom when a new entry is displayed. That is a bug (that I hate) and it just needs to be fixed.

I'll talk to Brian about options for disabling Miss and Graze messages. Color changes/simplifications should be easy.

And while BG1 and IWD1's combat logs tended to scroll at a pretty slow pace at low levels, that was not true toward the end game and was not really true in BG2 or (higher level) IWD2 at all. Serious fights (e.g. w/ Gromnir and friends) dumped a ton of messages because a) there's just a lot of people doing things and b) it was not hard to get your THAC0/Attack Bonus to divine heights, so scoring hits was common. Higher IWD/BG2/IWD2 warrior classes were also attacking really frequently, so you could see a lot of output from them.

This in no way means we shouldn't look into improving our combat log, but even in the original games there's a certain volume of feedback that's hard to avoid once enough characters get involved at mid- to high-level.

Main HUD changes

Kaz has moved all of those displays to the same position as the animal companion portrait. The AC portrait has been reduced in size, the portraits have been spaced out slightly more, and status/affliction icons have been moved to the right of each character's portrait. As a consequence, the action bar has been lowered proportionally and you can see more status/affliction icons per character.

Great more minimalism ... just what we need

Expanded info on upcoming AI changes

AI reevaluates on events (e.g. being hit, completing an action, etc.), but a moving character that does not stop often has no new events to re-evaluate. It starts moving and continues moving without being able to reach the target, so it keeps on truckin'. At least, that's how it worked before. In the next build, the main difference is that a moving AI will say, "Hey, I'm moving, so I will periodically evaluate if I should keep doing this or peel off and attack someone else."

 

[Hormalakh]

can they fix the bug that fucks up your DIRECT commands to your characters and ends up doing whatever the fuck when they are engaged? I find that shit terribly annoying that when I am halfway through a spell - or whatever i'm doing - that an engagement will cancel my action and "auto-attack."

there should be ai rules that we can manage for this very reason.

how do they solve this problem?

 

[Sensuki]

That's not a bug Hormalakh (at least related to Engagement) that is INTENDED behaviour (yes its fucked).

However auto-attack is buggy, and cancels your commands.

Adam Brennecke fixed a bug with NPCs/Creatures not dropping weapons

Good news everyone: Today I fixed an issue that prevented creatures from dropping their equipped weapons and secondary weapon set.

 

[Hormalakh]

The AI should be fixed for that.

The only time you should auto-attack is if you're moving or attack-moving. Casting a spell while standing still, drinking a potion, attacking another person (while standing still), masturbating (unless you're moving while masturbating) should not incur a disengagement "aggro."

in before "well this is a single-player game, so don't tell me how to masturbate."

 

[Sensuki]

That's usually the command it overrides, movement. It shouldn't even do that. Auto-attack should only after you use an ability such as Crippling Strike, Flames of Devotion, or after you kill an enemy.

 

[Hormalakh]

the reason you "need" to stop movement is because otherwise you'll get hit with a disengagement attack. Getting engaged happens so quickly that by the time you're "tagged" you won't have enough time to react to it. (which is why chilloutman's comments about always pausing confused me; it's not that we don't pause, but it's about being able to pause at the right time - getting engaged (unless fireworks go off) should be a fairly run-of-the-mill thing (not a lot of notice) as it happens so often (imagine constantly being barraged with YOUVE BEEN ENGAGED comments). But at the same time missing the engagement going off (by not pausing at the right time and making a decision at that point) has bad consequences. You need to be fast on your hands and at the keyboard to react when you get engaged.

of course, they could force auto-pause, or do any variety of weird things. none of which are really helpful or unobtrusive.


this whole "stopping" as soon as you're touched by a melee character is exactly why I call it a game of "tag, you're it" by the way.

 

[Hormalakh]

This is what I wrote as a bug, Sensuki:
[Description of issue:] When a character is initially engaged by an enemy, the character's program AI overrides the engaged character's player-directed commands and forces the character to auto-attack the engaging enemy. This is disruptive and plays as a (fairly bad and very frustrating) aggro mechanic, which can interrupt spells, abilities (drinking a potion for example), and any other variety of commands. It causes the player to lose control of their character. The only thing "getting" engaged should do is stop a character from moving or move-attacking as movements can trigger a disengagement attack (whereas no other action outside of moving should provoke a disengagement attack).

[Steps to replicate:]

1- Have your character be allowed to get engaged by an enemy.

2- While the enemy is coming to engage your character, perform any action that does not involve movement (drink a potion, set a trap, cast a spell, use an ability, etc).

3- Your character's action, if not completed, will stop and your character will begin to attack the engaging enemy.



[What should happen:]

Characters who are initiating or in the middle of an action (and are not MOVING) should first be allowed to complete that action. Thereafter, if character AI is turned on the character should begin auto-attacking after completing that action. If character AI is off, the character should stand in position until the next action is given.

Movement (either straight move or attack-move or rotate formation-move) while being engaged should stop the character and auto-attack should begin (again if AI is on) or the character should stop (if AI is off). A short (non-obtrusive) UI feedback mechanism (visual or sound) may be employed to inform the player that their character is now engaged.

 

[Nihiliste]

I can't believe its almost 2015 and even in the kickstarter era we're not going to get a satisfying IE successor. Call it low ambition if you will, but people need to stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Stop trying to fix what it isn't broken. Just do the exact same shit again. Seriously, how hard is this?

 

[Shevek]

I dunno. I am happy with what theyve done so far. Especially with this patch, I seriously think this game will be surprise alot of folks. It has many small touches that really result in a great experience. Alot of things like the world design, writing, weapon balance/variety, armor design, lore, journal and creature design/beastiary are not getting talked about enough (and we havent even seen the stronghold yet). Also, while I understand that folks can get hung up on certain specific design decisions, the overall experience is incredibly positive - both in combat and outside of it.

I recently played through with a slightly more active party and no tanky character. It was fun and didnt feel overly tedious or pause infested. I used abilities often enough to keep myself engaged but not so much as to feel hassled. The recent changes to combat pacing have improved things significantly. I acknowledge that this is an homage to the IE games, but I treat this as its own game. I adjust to it and dont necessary expect that it must adjust to me.

Before, I felt combat was fine. Now its good. As they improve the UI and feedback, I am sure it will be great.

 

[Athelas]

It won't be good until they remove the engagement system. Though I suppose mods could always take care of that.

 

[Shevek]

Thats just making a mountain out of a molehill. The mechanic is one small facet of one aspect of the game. It impacts a subset of players and there are ways for them to adjust. The mechanic is already working well and planned changes will make the system better (eliminate noted abuses). Lastly, the game feels good with it there. Its enjoyable. These debates are just losing sight of that.

 

[Hormalakh]

when wil shevek get a fanboy tag? Debates like these ferret out the bad shit from these games.
Making mountains out of molehills are what people who expect perfection do. Don't claim that you can recreate perfection and then object when we argue that it isn't perfection.
If we all were like you Shevek, we'd still be stuck playing the shit games from "the future."

 

[Grotesque]

True art and value comes from true sorrow, anguish and suffering.
So make J. Sawyer the ultimate miserable human being for us to receive a true Infinity Engine gem of a game.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

That's true, but I'm not sure he can experience joy or sorrow. On all the videos I've seen of him, he's got an indifferent expression no matter how long the video is, and the same indifferent tone. I think he might seriously be slightly autistic, or just really depressed, but not in any good way that would promote artistic creativity. Feels like he's really empty on the inside, like he's on anti-depressants. I'm serious.

First time I remember being surprised by this is when they had a game with high tier backers and he was like "whatever, I'm devoid of all emotions", which was borderline socially unacceptable, or at least weird.

I really don't understand how he can work in an entertainment industry, being that way.

 

[J_C]

That's true, but I'm not sure he can experience joy or sorrow. On all the videos I've seen of him, he's got an indifferent expression no matter how long the video is, and the same indifferent tone. I think he might seriously be slightly autistic, or just really depressed, but not in any good way that would promote artistic creativity. Feels like he's really empty on the inside, like he's on anti-depressants. I'm serious.

I really don't understand how he can work in an entertainment industry, being that way.

He looks and talks pretty normal to me. I have a hunch that you are just making shit up for some KKK.

 

[Athelas]

That's true, but I'm not sure he can experience joy or sorrow. On all the videos I've seen of him, he's got an indifferent expression no matter how long the video is, and the same indifferent tone. I think he might seriously be slightly autistic, or just really depressed, but not in any good way that would promote artistic creativity. Feels like he's really empty on the inside, like he's on anti-depressants. I'm serious.

First time I remember being surprised by this is when they had a game with high tier backers and he was like "whatever, I'm devoid of all emotions", which was borderline socially unacceptable, or at least weird.

I really don't understand how he can work in an entertainment industry, being that way.

You have some very close-minded views. Some people just don't have a very expressive face. And autists are people too, you know.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

No, I'm not hating on autists or anything. My all-time favorite movie is Drive, for example.

 

[Athelas]

 

[Shevek]

when wil shevek get a fanboy tag? Debates like these ferret out the bad shit from these games.
Making mountains out of molehills are what people who expect perfection do. Don't claim that you can recreate perfection and then object when we argue that it isn't perfection.
If we all were like you Shevek, we'd still be stuck playing the shit games from "the future."

Lol

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Turns out I couldn't resist using that duckface photo...

 

[Rake]