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Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Rostere

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Rostere

Im happy they got rid of durability. Their approach to it was PURELY as a money sink. They didnt want players to amass large amounts of gold. Screw that. I want to be oozing cash by the end game. For all my dungeon hacking efforts, I should be loaded. Also, I perfer positive incentives to use gold rather than negative reinforcement for not using it. The current implementations of crafting and the stronghold are fine examples of that. I might even be willing to blow through my gold on the stronghold just to play house and make my place look nice. Thats a fine optional and non punitive motivator to get me to blow through my cash.

It does not sound like an ideal approach to durability.

But in most games you're wading in cash seemingly regardless what you do, I think Obsidian would do well in limiting the amount of money you can earn and making both neat magical items and necessary supplies expensive, so that you are always counting your coins and wondering about what you can afford. I've personally found money to be so unimportant in for example the IE games that it could be abstracted away without you noticing much. You don't use it for anything except buying certain very particular items which you can almost always afford anyway when you need them.

I don't really like the term "money sink", but it is necessary to make money matter throughout the entire game if you are going to have it as an interesting feature. I prefer both positive and negative incentives to accomplish that. I would prefer if the roof was also raised somewhat so that there are certain very expensive and exotic items a player might never afford in one entire playthrough. That way people will actively try to find ways to get more money (quest choices?). Money as things are in money games is often a shit reward compared with other stuff you get it sucks and does not lead to anything to play a greedy character.
 

Shevek

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Lemme start by saying that though this game tries to go for darker tones, it still feels very high fantasy to me. That is important. Themes matter when implementing things like player wealth, durability, etc.

In my view, throwing out carrots the player can never get and making players feel like paupers in a high fantasy game after they have raided countless vaults, stolen from dozens of mansions and trekked for hours through loot filled dungeons makes no sense. By the end game, I should be sitting pretty in my tricked out fantasy pimp mansion. I should be able to buy whatever I want and feel like my efforts have seriously PAID off.

If the setting were a post apoc one (FO, Underrail, etc) or some kinda super gritty/quasi realistic medieval fantasy setting, then I would right there with you. But that sorta thing doesnt fit the themes of this game world.
 

Athelas

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The key is to tie repair to a crafting skill. It might be boring when you can only repair your stuff to "function normally", but it will be more fun if using what you have at hand and putting skill points into weapon proficiency or learning of how to craft and maintain weapons are two distinct builds. You can opt for balancing the two, but also to build a master craftsman who is able to maintain the best gear or a spoiled knight/uncivilized barbarian who knows well how to fight but uses only what is at hand until it breaks.

It's typically always more fun when there is also severe punishment for having awful stats, not only bonuses for having good stats. Examples are: Low-int dialogue, people attacking you on sight because your are so fucking ugly, Critical misses, weapons/armor breaking, constitution being a limit for exploration (see Fallout and Age of Decadence), strength limiting what armor/weapons you can use, and so on.

If your character not only has distinct strengths you use in the game, but also critical weaknesses you must always confront, you will probably get a much more interesting game.
You've just demonstrated why this isn't a good idea - you give Fallout and Age of Decadence as examples, which are single-character affairs. In a party-based game, you're always able to have every skill, and there's no meaningful choice to be made. - unless taking the same skill multiple times has a cumulative effect, which is something that PoE does to an extent.
 

Arkeus

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You've just demonstrated why this isn't a good idea - you give Fallout and Age of Decadence as examples, which are single-character affairs. In a party-based game, you're always able to have every skill, and there's no meaningful choice to be made. - unless taking the same skill multiple times has a cumulative effect, which is something that PoE does to an extent.
There is a big caveat here- it's literally impossible to have every classes in your team, especially as you don't have companions of every classes.
 

Kem0sabe

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The companion list on the wiki is somewhat confusing, hopefully they will release something before release with the full companion breakdown
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
He could still be a character in the game, just not a companion. Sensuki might know.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
There is a big caveat here- it's literally impossible to have every classes in your team, especially as you don't have companions of every classes.
You can make and hire any class you want in the adventurers hall.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=14#post440353158

Josh Sawyer said:
This is all part of the tuning process. Other notable changes we've been playing with locally:

* Crits are now 101+ (were 96+)
* Grazes are on 16-50 (were 6-50)
* Misses are on anything below 16 (were below 6)
* Crits add 25% to damage instead of 50%. This might seem strange, but with DR it usually feels much more significant. However, we may tune this yet again since...
* Yesterday, Tim fixed a bunch of exponential growth functions with damage multipliers. Percentage modifiers were always supposed to be additive with each other but many were not. Rogues could get especially ludicrous once they had five, six, or seven modifiers.

The net result is that damage output is more stable, having a lower Accuracy than the target defense is worse (since Grazes are in a narrower band), and we don't wind up with quadratic rogues.
 

Athelas

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They fulfilled my wish of increasing the miss range. :yeah:

All the other changes are great too.
 

Shevek

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All those changes sound pretty good. Combined with the stat changes, the next patch should be interesting
 

Rostere

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Lemme start by saying that though this game tries to go for darker tones, it still feels very high fantasy to me. That is important. Themes matter when implementing things like player wealth, durability, etc.

In my view, throwing out carrots the player can never get and making players feel like paupers in a high fantasy game after they have raided countless vaults, stolen from dozens of mansions and trekked for hours through loot filled dungeons makes no sense. By the end game, I should be sitting pretty in my tricked out fantasy pimp mansion. I should be able to buy whatever I want and feel like my efforts have seriously PAID off.

If the setting were a post apoc one (FO, Underrail, etc) or some kinda super gritty/quasi realistic medieval fantasy setting, then I would right there with you. But that sorta thing doesnt fit the themes of this game world.

I think you misunderstand me. There always appear more "urgent" needs for money IRL - like curing diseases worldwide or colonizing Mars. I am trying to avoid the typical situation in CRPGs where money is not an issue. If you can afford everything, that makes the game uninteresting and the feature of money redundant. Money should be scarce enough and goods for sale powerful enough that you feel you have really accomplished something when you buy something from a merchant - and that you are forced to choose NOT to buy other goods, which you will buy at a later playthrough. As you get richer, the exclusive goods you are able to buy gets more and more interesting. It does not make the player feel like a pauper if they can not afford legendary weapons from the king's armoury. What would make the player feel like a pauper is if they could not afford bread or something in the late game. If the player comes upon a situation when money does not matter you have failed fundamentally with a game mechanic.

Durability is a game mechanic which would prevent players from farming gold too easily, by making farming useless through the losses incurred by weapon degradation. Tuning your repair skill is then key to asymptotically gaining a fortune through the entire game.

You've just demonstrated why this isn't a good idea - you give Fallout and Age of Decadence as examples, which are single-character affairs. In a party-based game, you're always able to have every skill, and there's no meaningful choice to be made. - unless taking the same skill multiple times has a cumulative effect, which is something that PoE does to an extent.

5611815.jpg


Wrong. The problem is just that multi-character games are often not balanced to take this into account.

Assume you were some kind of more realistic adventuring party. Let us observe the "repair/weaponsmith" skill. Would you need every character to be a bicycle repair man? No. A real-life adventuring party would likely have one squire, smith or handyman who is specialized in weapons and armour maintenance. Hell, if we are to be realistic the fighter in full armour might not even be able to don it himself without aid.

So what about the advantage of having several characters with the same skill? Well, you're right in that of course. A party would only need one smith. Maybe if we are to be obscenely realistic, other characters with "repair/weaponsmith" skill would be able to confer a tiny bonus to the party's designated smith. This would reflect them looking over his shoulder and correcting mistakes using a lower level of knowledge. In reality, knowledge is not additive but comes with great redundancy as we all know, but it never hurts with too detailed game mechanics. Letting one character handle a certain skill is actually realistic and desired behaviour.

Now here comes the interesting part. Most RPGs we have seen have actually failed in the area of party skills. Take NWN2 for example. I don't know which parties you used, but I felt I could pretty much do everything I wanted in terms of skills all the way through to the end of the game. You are right that this offered little meaningful choice. This reflects a failure on the part of the game designers to have tough enough skill requirements, or there might be too few skills. Not that there was a lot Obsidian could to in that regard considering they used D&D. But think about balancing things something like this instead:

Magic user-type skills: Alchemy, Scholarly Lore, Magic

Rogue-type skills: Mechanics, Sneak, Sleight of Hand

Fighter-type skills: Repair/Weaponsmith, weapon proficiencies

General skills: Intimidation, Diplomacy, Physiology, Wilderness Lore, Streetwise/Sense Motive

These are about 15 skills. Suppose you have a party of 4. Now if you max Intelligence or whatever the stats are in this system which helps you gain skill points with every character, you should in my opinion only be able to solve the very toughest skill checks the game offers in those four skills. And then you will suck ass at exactly everything else. Skill checks should be spread out so that most are fairly easy with a few being harder. Successes at hard skill checks are greatly rewarded, but fails at easy skill checks are severely punished - this will encourage both generalist and specialist playstyles.

How fucking hard can it be to not shower the player with skill points? It's not that hard in theory. It's just that few developers of party-based RPGs seem to care about choices and consequences in character creation.
 

Athelas

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Wrong. The problem is just that multi-character games are often not balanced to take this into account.
There's no way to balance it except for going for Wasteland 2-esque skill bloat. I sure hope you enjoy having three different skills dedicated to the sole task of opening a container. I don't.

Besides, PoE already solves many of these problems. Instead of picking dialogue skills and simply getting to see all the content, dialogue options are tied to attributes. And since you can't max them all, and your choice of attributes also depends on your combat build, there's no way you can see all the content in a single playthrough. Stealth is cumulative and uses the party's total stealth skill, Athletics and Survival have a benefit for each individual character that has those skills, etc.

How fucking hard can it be to not shower the player with skill points?
It's pretty hard because these games typically have a stat that increases the amount of skill points you get (usually INT). Personally I wouldn't have a stat like that (even in a single-character RPG) because it's a no-brainer option (of course you want more skills), but that's how its done.

Magic user-type skills: Alchemy, Scholarly Lore, Magic

Rogue-type skills: Mechanics, Sneak, Sleight of Hand

Fighter-type skills: Repair/Weaponsmith, weapon proficiencies

General skills: Intimidation, Diplomacy, Physiology, Wilderness Lore, Streetwise/Sense Motive
I don't understand. You want to tie skills to classes? Also, see my previous point about skill bloat.
 

Shevek

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Again, if the game were a survival sim style deal, I would agree. However, a combat focused high fantasy title should never penalize the player for farming gold. Let the player get filthy stinking rich at the end game, I say. So long as no barter skills or other such character development choices are subverted, whats the problem? I am not saying this should happen immediately but around the games final act its ok. If the game must find money sinks, I say keep them optional (stronghold, etc).

Also, penalizing the player by decreasing weapon durability (thereby charging them x gold for y sword swings) just seems wrong in this kinda setting. Now, if this were a grittier setting that had Oregon Trail like gameplay (Realm of Arkania, etc), then the weapon durability mechanic would fit. Ultimately, I think its a mistake to take a one size fits all approach to crpg titles. Not all mechanics or design approaches make sense in all titles.
 
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8 companions.

Only 8? weak WEAK!


Codexian lore references aside...I'm very disappointed in this. Certainly, I'm in the minority for preferring BG1 (or even 2) style of quantity over depth when it comes to recruitable NPCs (makes them more expendable, more of a resource, making or more fun ironman/speed runs)...but I never expected there to be fewer NPCs than there were classes. Ah well, they pretty much had to go Torment-style so as to better capture the storyfag demographic.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Only 8? weak WEAK!


Codexian lore references aside...I'm very disappointed in this. Certainly, I'm in the minority for preferring BG1 (or even 2) style of quantity over depth when it comes to recruitable NPCs (makes them more expendable, more of a resource, making or more fun ironman/speed runs)...but I never expected there to be fewer NPCs than there were classes. Ah well, they pretty much had to go Torment-style so as to better capture the storyfag demographic.

The game is technically supposed to be based on all three Infinity Engine lineages. Consider the eight companions to be its tribute to PS:T (and the Adventurer's Hall its tribute to Icewind Dale)
 

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