Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Sensuki]

Obsidian forums. Some people were like "omg imagine a 3d game!"

 

[tuluse]

Obsidian forums. Some people were like "omg imagine a 3d game!"

 

[Grunker]

^ could just post a pic of nwn2 and it would be qed tbh

 

[Athelas]

^ could just post a pic of nwn2 and it would be qed tbh

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Just imagine the headlines: Sweatshops in India reach new inhuman lows as gifted but underprivileged youngsters are forced to slave away programming code for Obsidian's latest Kickstarted RPG.

You do realize that freelancers from India, while getting paid less than a European, are actually paid more than super well by their country's standards, especially if they don't live in the capital? If they live in a remote place in their country, they're like local kings, chicks jumping all over them, etc.

 

[Athelas]

Apparently I need to start signaling my jokes with flashing neon signs.

 

[Sensuki]

Not everyone replies to sarcasm with acknowledgement of said sarcasm. Often if it's not funny, or if it creates discusion - acknowledgement isn't given.

 

[Athelas]

In this case there's nothing to the post but sarcasm, so there's no point replying otherwise.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Somebody said there was a moral problem, I thought that was it. I still have no clue what it was.

 

[Rostere]

Obsidian forums. Some people were like "omg imagine a 3d game!"

 

[Infinitron]

Obsidian forums. Some people were like "omg imagine a 3d game!"

Actually, that topic came up when Sean explained some of the limitations imposed by PoE's particular implementation of 2D backgrounds, and some guy asked "well, why not just make it 3D then?".

 

[Rostere]

Obsidian forums. Some people were like "omg imagine a 3d game!"

Actually, that topic came up when Sean explained some of the limitations imposed by PoE's particular implementation of 2D backgrounds, and some guy asked "well, why not just make it 3D then?".

Yes, I know, I read it all. I'm just so disappointed with the human race.

 

[Abu Antar]

I'd lose my shit if they went 3D for the sequel but I don't see them doing it.

 

[Sensuki]

Sean Dunny on how long it takes to render an area

Small, one room areas can take as little as 30 minutes or so to render. Most of these areas are somewhere in the 8-10 hour range for a render. I think Dyrford is right around that range.

Some areas that are particularly dense (lots of reflective materials, etc.) clock in at 15+ hours. We're using advanced materials and lighting calculations and that stuff takes a lot of time.

All of the machines we're working on have 32 gigs of ram. Any less and Maya will run out of memory trying to render these scenes. We don't have anything super crazy in terms of processor or graphics card, but there are also a number of tricks we do to optimize our viewports in Maya to avoid chugging. When everything is unhidden, framerate gets a bit rough.

I'd say an average scene is somewhere between 50 and 100 million triangles. It varies a lot depending on area size and what's in the scene. The inside of a cave is going to be less intensive than an exterior area with a lot of foliage.

That's a lot longer than what Josh described a while back. I think he quoted like 80-90 minutes.

 

[Sensuki]

New Update: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70459-update-89-backer-rewards/

 

[Athelas]

A whole chapter on the minutiae of adra.

 

[LESS T_T]

No words on Tim Cain's cook book?!

 

[Abu Antar]

No words on Tim Cain's cook book?!

He was finished with that some time ago if I remember correctly. I think Sensuki posted a JES quote from S-A in this very thread.

 

[Sensuki]

Adam Brennecke on varied terrain

We did experiments with varied terrain, and it doesn't work out too well because how the navmesh works and how it gets optimized by Unity. Subtle variations in terrain are lost on the navmesh, and characters will float above the ground (moreso than they do already on sloped/uneven terrain). Flat terrain works well for character animation too. We found the flatter the better.

Sometimes too much detail on the ground makes everything look very "noisy" and "crunchy" in the render. It can be a detractor for how the scene looks.

Sean Dunny on varied terrain

There is actually very little to be gained from uneven surfaces. Because of the isometric camera, changes in height don't read well. Subtle changes - like rolling plains - are nearly imperceptible. You do get shadows cast, but if it's something like a grassy surface, those shadows would be diffused and wouldn't show the height change very well. If we were to ignore that and still go for some sort of undulating height, you get issues like the one Sensuki mentioned. The navmesh now must meet up with the height changes perfectly, otherwise you get characters clipping through the ground or floating in places. Generally both. This also makes it take far longer to create as we can no longer just work with flat planes to control nav.

We also have the issue of making placement of props more difficult. Everything now has to conform to the slope it's placed on and we can't just snap things around to the ground plane anymore. We have to move everything to fit and rotate it to make sure it's at the correct angle. Now we have added time and difficulty to scenes to get results that may not even look particularly good. That's not even accounting for problems like effects that are placed on the ground and would now have to account for situations where you'd cast consecration or something on non-flat terrain.

The net result is that you have a very time-consuming process that doesn't add much visually and causes a host of other issues. This is something that we did experiment with early on and the idea was quickly scrapped.

The best way to go about it is a sort of terraced system where you have flat areas with ramps or stairs connecting them. This solves a lot of the problems by minimizing the time you spend on an uneven surface.

EDIT: I guess I could've just said, "what Adam said."

 

[Ellef]

Not a physical backer, but #2 has got to be the better option. Double the shipping is just asking for something to go wrong, and the disc is the only thing you would need before the release date anyway.

 

[Blaine]

Hey guys, we didn't think through the logistics of distributing physical rewards until less than two months before release, so here's a "choice" for your consideration!

You can select an essentially nonfunctional placeholder game disc delivered more-or-less on time... OR, you can select a functional game disc that will arrive a week or more after you've completed the game! It'll be DRM-free, though, a promise we don't regret—we made it because we care, not to engender customer goodwill and thereby increase Kickstarter funding. We wouldn't neatly sidestep it at the last minute, and certainly not on purpose.

Aren't you excited? As you can see, we value your opinions, and this is absolutely not a mealy-mouthed PR exercise.

You're more-or-less going to be eating either the shit sandwich or the piss pickles, but this lame and transparent update will serve as a sweet, tangy sauce to make either snack a lot more palatable.

If you beg to differ, feel completely free to engage in friendly discussion with our legion of fiercely loyal high-functioning autists right here on the Obsidian forums. They'll bash the ever-living fuck out of their keyboards until you either become exasperated and log out, or cave to their wheedling and resignedly agree with them.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Not at all. What we’re more concerned about is the non-final build being leaked before you, the backers, are able to play it. It’s an unfortunate part of our business; many games get leaked after they leave the developers hands.

If it’s leaked early, it hurts everyone, both in the short and long term. It hurts you, the backers, who have waited with immense patience for the game, and you should be the first folks to get to play it. It hurts those who play an incomplete version of the game

I love how they try to convince everyone that a leaked game version hurts YOU. Lol, I can take this hurt, give it to me.

 

[J_C]

I think there would be significant moral and PR problems with spending KS money outsourcing programming to India.

I've literally no idea what you're taking about, what moral and pr problems??

For example i would feel pretty bad, if I worked at Obsidian as a programmer, yet they don't give me work on a project, hiring a hoboo from India instead.

Because they have their own programmers, hiring outsiders would also mean that they have to pay the wage of their own, plus the freelancer.

 

[Shannow]

Sean Dunny again

As has been mentioned, we have a very small art team. There is no way we could have made environments of this size and scope with a team this small in this period of time in a traditional 3d workflow. Maybe if we heavily re-used assets and had a very limited, modular building style. But it certainly would not have had the same scope and variety that we have in the game.

There are going to be pros and cons to any development choice that is made, but I think for the results that we've got the benefits have far outweighed the negatives.

To think that I bitched and moaned for nigh on a decade that game-aesthetics should have oriented themselves and improved on ToEE. Instead I had to suffer through ugly NWN(2), Daaoh and their ilk. The "explanation" always being that 3d was easier and cheaper to do... (Cause nobody in his right mind would claim that NWN actually looked better than ToEE.)

So somebody is lying to me. I don't care who. I've already contracted a Lithuanian Hitman to kill them all. God will keep his own and send the others to where they belong

 

[J_C]

Not at all. What we’re more concerned about is the non-final build being leaked before you, the backers, are able to play it. It’s an unfortunate part of our business; many games get leaked after they leave the developers hands.

If it’s leaked early, it hurts everyone, both in the short and long term. It hurts you, the backers, who have waited with immense patience for the game, and you should be the first folks to get to play it. It hurts those who play an incomplete version of the game

I love how they try to convince everyone that a leaked game version hurts YOU. Lol, I can take this hurt, give it to me.

i don't care really, because I'm a digital backer, but this is just PR bullshit. What this really means: we want to work on the game until the last minute, and since the physical disc has no Steam with automatic update, we will ship the discs late.