Game News Pillars of Eternity delayed to early 2015

[Sensuki]

The game isn't feature complete. It's "feature locked".

There are some similar issues in PE - the lower camera angle is problematic in combat compared to the isometric one, and their decision to include environmental sorting is also creating some issues as well - although they've just decided to roll with it. That's just a couple, but there's more.

The CC screen has required way more effort than they anticipated, as has fog of war, which isn't even close to right yet (and pathfinding and AI but you know about that).

Also the way that character models/scaling has been done is also creating a lot of issues. One of the reasons (not the main one) that they need to delay is because there are sooooo many bugs with character art atm. Dimitri said he was expecting to be working on the expansion already but yeah

 

[Lerk]

I'd rather believe this project was managed well, only they tried to do too much given what time they had like they always do.

Or in layman's terms, not managed well? Dat doublespeak, you should be in politics.

What separates this project from other Obsidian projects is a much longer feature- and content-complete beta period.

Come off it, we all know what distinguishes this project for you: Lord Jesus Sawyer, Bringer of Balance, Who Can Do No Wrong, is helming it. Keep on smiting the heretics though, it's entertaining watching you wipe the egg off your face.

 

[Roguey]

The game isn't feature complete. It's "feature locked".

There are some similar issues in PE - the lower camera angle is problematic in combat compared to the isometric one, and their decision to include environmental sorting is also creating some issues as well - although they've just decided to roll with it. That's just a couple, but there's more.

The CC screen has required way more effort than they anticipated, as has fog of war, which isn't even close to right yet (and pathfinding and AI but you know about that).

Also the way that character models/scaling has been done is also creating a lot of issues. One of the reasons (not the main one) that they need to delay is because there are sooooo many bugs with character art atm. Dimitri said he was expecting to be working on the expansion already but yeah

Someone should ask Obs why they didn't catch these things during pre-prod or the vertical slice where these kinds of issues are supposed to be caught. ^_^

Not me of course.

 

[Sensuki]

I might if I ever get to do another interview.

 

[Perkel]

Probably vertical slice for 4mln game differs much than your AAA vert s. Also they were rolling on unknown to them back then Unity + they had to develop their own Unity based renderer for their 2D like game.

I said this in other thread. Releasing game with bugs is worse than delaying it and polishing it until it is ready. Question though is how much they can polish to stay green.

Also i hope they are actually creating PE for actual 3,8mln instead of creating it for 3,8 and adding to that own money which could hinder their sequels/new game profitability.

 

[Space Satan]

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Also i hope they are actually creating PE for actual 3,8mln instead of creating it for 3,8 and adding to that own money which could hinder their sequels/new game profitability.

I don't really get this, unless they really went overboard. If most of the funding comes from kickstarter and they put in 1m from elsewhere, they would only need to sell 40k copies or whatever to pay this back, then the rest is profit. Fargo put in extra, DOS put in lots extra.

Obviously it's less risky to put in none of your own money but a reasonable amount shouldn't hinder any "sequels/new game". Kickstarter has taken a lot of the risk out of these projects, pretty sweet to put in 1m of your own (or borrowed) money and end up owning a 5m project.

 

[Space Satan]

I wonder how much Obsidian spends on wages monthly.

 

[MrBuzzKill]

As long as they don't release it simultaneously with other major RPGs like DA3 and TW3, they should be fine.
And I'm glad they're not rushing it. I'd rather get a beautiful looking polished game with as few bugs as possible.

 

[Volourn]

Rogue still sucking that Sawyer cock making excuses for him. LMAO

P.S. WL2 > DOS + PE

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

I wonder how much Obsidian spends on wages monthly.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe OES has a burn rate of about 1mil/month. As to what percentage of that is wages, I'm unsure.

 

[Dexter]

Well this comes as a total surprise: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...y-teaser-interviews.88360/page-7#post-3004236

 

[Duraframe300]

I wonder how much Obsidian spends on wages monthly.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe OES has a burn rate of about 1mil/month. As to what percentage of that is wages, I'm unsure.

Currently the whole company has an even higher burn rate. They never had as many employees. Even compared to the AP/NWN/Aliens days (2007-2008)

That does not influence PE though as they are stacked with projects.

 

[Menckenstein]

I wonder how much Obsidian spends on wages monthly.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe OES has a burn rate of about 1mil/month. As to what percentage of that is wages, I'm unsure.

Currently the whole company has an even higher burn rate. They never had as many employees. Even compared to the AP/NWN/Aliens days (2007-2008)

That does not influence PE though as they are stacked with projects.

SLAM DUNK

 

[Roguey]

Probably vertical slice for 4mln game differs much than your AAA vert s. Also they were rolling on unknown to them back then Unity + they had to develop their own Unity based renderer for their 2D like game.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/426779

We’re coming to the end of the Prototype phase. While you might think of a prototype as something you would consider before making a game, in our case, we use the term to mean a demonstration of the game that, when successful, demonstrates the game’s vision (AKA “pillars”) and concept. For Eternity, one of our biggest pillars is to recreate the Infinity Engine experience. To that end, we need to have a number of key things in place to make sure our prototype is a success. Things like:

• Character movement and combat. We want to make sure we have a party of up to six characters, each of whom can be moved independently and/or as a group, which does then imply rudimentary support for formations as well as NPC and basic creature AI. Basic AI meaning to ‘see’ the characters, face them, and then move to them and start attacking. This also means we need character models that have enough animations to demonstrate this convincingly, as well as at least one monster. For our prototype demo, we have one known only as “Chompy” for now. More on him (or her?!) in future updates!
• Basic RPG mechanics. We need to prove that we’re making an RPG here obviously! We need basics like loot management; for instance, inventory and opening containers like chests. We need basic conversations and quest giving, including receiving a quest, tracking its progress, and then providing a reward for it being completed.
• Environments. We want to have a working outdoor area as well as a tileset-based interior that the player can move between and throughout. This makes us prove out area transitions too (I can hear it now, “YOU MUST GATHER YOUR PARTY BEFORE VENTURING FORTH...”)

...
Our next phase of the project is called the Vertical Slice. At Obsidian, this is the phase right before Production. In Vertical Slice, we try to do two things:

• Get Ready for Production. During Vertical Slice and definitely up into Production is when the team size grows. Early on, we’re getting all of our tools and processes designed, programmed, and with luck, polished up for our designers and artists to hit the ground running. Unity has been a dream for our developers so far, and it’s been easy for us to bring over our latest tools from other games for things like text and conversation management.
• Produce a Final “Slice” of Gameplay. We also try to develop a ‘final slice’ of gameplay. It’s generally a short, maybe 5-15 minute demo that demonstrates all of the core pillars of the game, as well as taken to what we’re aiming for at a final quality level in terms of visuals, audio, and presentation. During our Prototype we try to make stuff look great, but it’s secondary to form and feel.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/493980

You've read about Prototype 1 and then Prototype 2. Those were efforts to implement features that represent the functional and playable standard of our goal: an Infinity Engine style of game. Those efforts were focused collaborations of designing, programming and art-ing things, trying them out, addressing problems as they came up (visual, functional or otherwise failing to live up to our standard) and repeating. The art goals were held to an 80-90% complete (aka: unpolished). The remaining 10-20% of work will be left toward the end of the "next phase," as always there will be edits and modifications after initial implementation of art. The basic truth of this interactive artistic endeavor that we are involved in is that you can't know it's a worthwhile experience, until you make it, people play it, and then provide feedback. We adjust our work to that feedback - a feedback loop. Boom! Consider yourself educated.

The "next phase" is a Vertical Slice. This is a goal in which we focus on one part of the game within a shell of what is essentially the fully-featured game - relying on the things developed in the prototypes, as well as implementing a fully-functional UI, attempting to finalize all art and gameplay to a more polished standard, and accommodate design changes that are required to make the player experience more complete - as if this part were a finalized, short game in itself.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/500979

This month we are knee-deep in the Vertical Slice phase and this will be the team's focus for the month of June. It's our way of proving that we are ready to jump forward into production and start making shippable content.

The Vertical Slice is just that, a cross section (think of it as a slice of bread cut out from the middle of a loaf) of the world of Project Eternity. At the end of this phase the game will be feature complete, and the content building portion of the team, including area designers, environment artists, and character artists can make shippable content now. Our Vertical Slice is eleven maps large; encompassing our village and dungeon from Prototype 2, and the dungeon and wilderness area from Prototype 1 (we call this area "The Valley of Hector" internally). The content from the prototypes are refactored to fit within the context of the world and overall story of the game. Feature-wise, we are targeting to have the majority of the world building tools complete and all of the character classes playable up to level five.

I'd say they have some explaining to do.

 

[sser]

Btw, Paradox's own RPG Runemaster have or had similar release date as Pillars. I bet Runemaster will be released much later than Pillars, though.

This was my first thought. I think Runemaster will be further along and ready for release when it's supposed to be. Paradox is not concerned in fully-fleshed products, but something 'good enough' to ride the skateboard of kewl DLC that comes post-release.

 

[Tramboi]

Maybe one of the problems is vertical slices are dumb. Which solid engineering field beyond half-assed CS uses them ?
VSs are utter bullshit. Point.
Some things must be done before, some after, stuff A must be completed before stuff B is even initiated.
Vss are an inheritance of the game industry when you had to please the producer regularly and make him trust you.
Any independent company doing such a thing deserves lots of trouble.

 

[Blaine]

I'd rather get a beautiful looking polished game with as few bugs as possible.

I'm afraid I've got some bad news for you on that front.

More generally, absolutely every "Kickstarter revival" project has taken approximately 50% longer than projected to be released—Shadowrun Returns, Wasteland 2, Divinity: Original Sin, Broken Age, and others. It really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. I predicted as much back in 2012, though it was an easy prediction to make.

 

[Perkel]

Also i hope they are actually creating PE for actual 3,8mln instead of creating it for 3,8 and adding to that own money which could hinder their sequels/new game profitability.

I don't really get this, unless they really went overboard. If most of the funding comes from kickstarter and they put in 1m from elsewhere, they would only need to sell 40k copies or whatever to pay this back, then the rest is profit. Fargo put in extra, DOS put in lots extra.

Obviously it's less risky to put in none of your own money but a reasonable amount shouldn't hinder any "sequels/new game". Kickstarter has taken a lot of the risk out of these projects, pretty sweet to put in 1m of your own (or borrowed) money and end up owning a 5m project.

That is the thing.

If they will fit into 3,6-3,8mln with their budget this means even if game sells 0 they are profitable.
If they for example add to it next 3mln they will need to sell copies for those 3mln just to be on green again.

Point is that if they will do for said budget without adding anything they don't risk anything. Even if they will get 0/10 reviews as long as fans who funded first game are happy all is well. This also means that they can experiment as they want with story settings and so on.

Add to it pocket money and suddenly you need to sell, need to sell = less experiments and so on.

Obsidianities aren't your indie pizza and mountain dew teams they can't run on short budget. If we take US industry standard 100k a year that is 37 work months by only one man. Naturally as studio they have more laverage to put some PE work between other members of studio without hiring for example full time artist for this game. Still for proper studio it is small amount of money and i fear that they invested themself quite a bit of money.

Naturally i think PE will sell a lot (a lot more than W2 or DOS) and those "fears" are for now rather unfounded.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Maybe one of the problems is vertical slices are dumb. Which solid engineering field beyond half-assed CS uses them ?
VSs are utter bullshit. Point.
Some things must be done before, some after, stuff A must be completed before stuff B is even initiated.
Vss are an inheritance of the game industry when you had to please the producer regularly and make him trust you.
Any independent company doing such a thing deserves lots of trouble.

I really think you would be very hard pressed to find anyone who has worked in the industry who would agree with you.
Vertical slices tend to demonstrate the 'vision' for the project internally far better than any design doc could, specifically because making a vertical slice is a more collaborative process (that is, it requires many more creative specialists) than having a designer sit down and write design/pre-prod docs.

 

[Grunker]

I'd rather believe this project was managed well

Someone stole my Roguey. Zhe always left a couple of quotes to back up zher guess-work. Now it's just your beliefs versus the beliefs of butthurt Fallout fans?

for shame

All this proves is that even with good management you can't make a full-scale RPG in 26 months.

If that's what it shows, it also disproves your thesis that other Kickstarters were managed poorly, at least for now.

Your complaints about buggyness cannot be verified yet. I'm not sure to give Josh a pass on Obsidian's typical problems with bugginess and similar bullshit. We'll see come release.

 

[Volrath]

P.S. WL2 > DOS + PE

Lol no

R00fles!

 

[Frusciante]

More generally, absolutely every "Kickstarter revival" project has taken approximately 50% longer than projected to be released—Shadowrun Returns, Wasteland 2, Divinity: Original Sin, Broken Age, and others. It really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. I predicted as much back in 2012, though it was an easy prediction to make.

I would say every game development project takes much longer than projected.

 

[Tramboi]

I really think you would be very hard pressed to find anyone who has worked in the industry who would agree with you.
Vertical slices tend to demonstrate the 'vision' for the project internally far better than any design doc could, specifically because making a vertical slice is a more collaborative process (that is, it requires many more creative specialists) than having a designer sit down and write design/pre-prod docs.

Well any programmer I have worked with in the industry would agree with me. And any producer would disagree.
Iteration IS important, but the vertical slice implies everything goes at the same rate.

 

[Dr Schultz]

P.S. DOS> W2 + PE+ probably the vast majority of the upcoming RPGs

Lol no

R00fles!

Fixed.

At least if we are talking of real gameplay and not of larping, theoretical rules of good design and storyfag onanism...