Eternity Pillars of Eternity II Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Parabalus]

Also the fact that it's crystal clear how many actions can be performed per round at any given level and you can't exceed that limit. 1 spell every 6 seconds or up to 5 attacks. Haste doubles that which is why it's so overpowered, but it's besides the point. In PoE the individual round is however much your recovery time is, which is a fraction of a second sometimes if you go all out. The lowest possible recovery should be at least 1ish second for physical attacks and 3 seconds for spells. That's including DAoM pots.

This change was one of the best parts of PoE, going from an absolute round to individual ones.

It differentiates weapons and spells, unlike BG where with haste buffs and cast speed buffs both 2h and DW weapons have 10 APR and you get one spell per round no matter it's original casting speed.

Add super slow mode if needed, but wishing for the wonky 6 second global cycle is degenerate.

I think the health system would be just fine if they got rid of auto-regen when combat ends and enabled potion use. I like the way injuries work now, but removing auto-regen would help reintroduce attrition.

Edit: I didn't say I thought they would do it. Just that it would be an improvement.

The entire point of the system is that you don't have to waste time after battle on casting CLWx10, that's the part it did right at least. Removing endurance though .

 

[AwesomeButton]

What is "an absolute round"? Open up you IWD/BG manual and read up on how rounds work in the IE games.

Lol, Infinitron expressing his own sensations by using post ratings on other people's posts.

 

[Lacrymas]

There are no "absolute rounds" in the IE games, whatever that means, lol, neither is there a 6 second global round. It's all very structured and disciplined, something PoE lacks fundamentally. The recovery times in PoE can work, though, but they need to be slowed down.

 

[Morblot]

PSA: If you donated to our PoE2 Codex fundraiser and you're not logged in, please log in and check your PMs.

Should people who donated less than 99+ bucks have gotten a PM too?

I donated $65 and got a PM from Crooked Bee on July 7 asking me for my Obsidian account username. I replied a few days later.

Pillars II does not appear on my Obsidian account, though, so I guess I can't buy the beta access

Hopefully it will show up in time for release at least...

 

[Infinitron]

I donated $65 and got a PM from Crooked Bee on July 7 asking me for my Obsidian account username. I replied a few days later.

That's right, the PM went out to those people who didn't reply to her back then.

 

[AwesomeButton]

BTW, I was messaged by Crooked Bee, gave her my Obsidian forums account name, but I'm still not marked as a backer of Deadfire. Maybe the delay is on Obsidian's part?

 

[Infinitron]

BTW, I was messaged by Crooked Bee, gave her my Obsidian forums account name, but I'm still not marked as a backer of Deadfire. Maybe the delay is on Obsidian's part?

Katrina tells me they're working on it.

They have your username, in the meantime I'm trying to get the ones that are still missing.

 

[Morblot]

Good to know.

 

[Sensuki]

There are no "absolute rounds" in the IE games, whatever that means, lol, neither is there a 6 second global round. It's all very structured and disciplined

This.

It also appear they've overlooked something after removing Engagement from most units

 

[Parabalus]

There are no "absolute rounds" in the IE games, whatever that means, lol, neither is there a 6 second global round. It's all very structured and disciplined, something PoE lacks fundamentally. The recovery times in PoE can work, though, but they need to be slowed down.

Every action has a 6 sec recovery time beginning at the start of the action. Use Kai and you can't cast for 6 seconds, cast something longer like Animate Dead and you can chain cast. It's bad because there is no way to affect it (outside of IA which is broken OP for that reason), leads to degenerate gameplay (kiting between cast cooldowns or 10 APR attacks between instant casts).

PoE system is the natural evolution of RTwP. Now, if you hate RTwP, that's ok - it's probably the majority codex opinion, but giving a dynamic way to affect the time between actions (recovery system and action speed) is great step forward.

 

[Frusciante]

Combat is getting better for me now that I get familiar with new rules/mechanics and start remembering what most abilities do. As expected of course starting with a level 6 party is not the best way to get familiar with the combat and mechanics.

That said, combat is still way too fast for me. I feel like it has a lot of potential though and can also see encounter design is pretty good. What I also like is how the scripted interactions are implemented on the world map. Two examples of minor scripted interactions on the world map:

Spoiler

the encounter with the wounded boars I like how it can result in you sneaking past the encounter, being ambushed or you entering the area in sneak mode and being able to ambush the fish people

same for the tree person and the spores, for me it will be one of the best things about this game I think, the feeling of cool exploration is already there, even in this small and unfinished part of the world map

I tried some different builds:

- ranger/druid: this was the combination I wanted to try the most. the Druid spells don;'t feel very impactful yet though and ranger just doesn't get any interesting bow talents (which is what I'm most interested in). The thing I like the most is the fury subclass for druid which allows you to be a storm blight with a fast ranged attack, a teleportating and lightning spell.
- barbarian/paladin: liked it for the defensive/support abilities and raw damage, debuffs from the barbarian
- rogue/cipher: interesting synergy but major downside is the long cast time of cipher spells so not very useful for a melee rogue
- rogue/chanter: played a rogue with acces to wizards illusionist spells (forgot name) and chanter subclass that provides extra phrases (used to cast spells) when landing a critical hit. I liked this build the most, was fun to get behind enemy lines, provide buffs with chants and do plenty of damage with sneak attacks and chanter invocations. Also has plenty of utility and debuffs. All invocations (except one summon spell) I chose had very short cast times (0.5 seconds). This combination felt quite powerful but fun.
- barbarian/monk: felt that monk didn't have a lot of interesting abilities to make the combo worthwhile.

Edit: the perception attribute annoys me. I feel like it's even more important for EVERY character in this game than in PoE1. You just cannot skip this attribute for any character...

 

[Sannom]

Edit: the perception attribute annoys me. I feel like it's even more important for EVERY character in this game than in PoE1. You just cannot skip this attribute for any character...

Why? Is it about its usefulness in combat or the fact that it's necessary to spot traps?

 

[Frusciante]

Edit: the perception attribute annoys me. I feel like it's even more important for EVERY character in this game than in PoE1. You just cannot skip this attribute for any character...

Why? Is it about its usefulness in combat or the fact that it's necessary to spot traps?

Perception increases accuracy. Every attack, spell, ability needs to ''hit'' by passing an accuracy vs ''defense'' check. With low perception your attacks, spells, chants etc will not hit.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's bad because there is no way to affect it (outside of IA which is broken OP for that reason), leads to degenerate gameplay (kiting between cast cooldowns or 10 APR attacks between instant casts).

It's not BAD because there is no way to affect it, it's GOOD because there is no way to affect it, it structures the combat into a manageable time-frame that is consistent throughout the game. You want a way to affect it? Ok, make the lowest recovery time 3 seconds, the fight will still be chaotic and undisciplined, but at least it will be manageable in a not frantic and twitchy way. You can kite in PoE as well, so no idea what you are hinting at. This is like the conversation we had with Prime Junta, where he thinks allowing mobs to wail on your squishies is somehow tactical and smart. It's not. Want a non-kite-able mob once in a while as a challenge? Make its walk speed faster than what PCs can muster.

 

[Sensuki]

Yeah there is no way to affect cast times in Wacraft 3 or DotA and it is balanced by the initial numbers they set.

 

[Parabalus]

It's bad because there is no way to affect it (outside of IA which is broken OP for that reason), leads to degenerate gameplay (kiting between cast cooldowns or 10 APR attacks between instant casts).

It's not BAD because there is no way to affect it, it's GOOD because there is no way to affect it, it structures the combat into a manageable time-frame that is consistent throughout the game. You want a way to affect it? Ok, make the lowest recovery time 3 seconds, the fight will still be chaotic and undisciplined, but at least it will be manageable in a not frantic and twitchy way. You can kite in PoE as well, so no idea what you are hinting at. This is like the conversation we had with Prime Junta, where he thinks allowing mobs to wail on your squishies is somehow tactical and smart. It's not. Want a non-kite-able mob once in a while as a challenge? Make its walk speed faster than what PCs can muster.

Kiting in PoE carries a drawback because there is no 6 second action cooldown but recovery:

• BG: Archer, use your APR, run the rest of 6 seconds at no cost. Even more apparent with spellcasters, where you cast and run around at no cost, or even better, use instant cast and attack the rest of the round at no cost
• PoE: Archer, use one attack, if you run you hit a 50% penalty. Later on there is no recovery so every fraction of a second you are kiting there is a steep cost. Spells function identically.

Easy example is try kiting a bear in PoE vs BG.

Like I said, I think you simply would prefer the game to be TB. I don't mind characters having different recovery and everything being more chaotic, there is always the pause key to issue orders.

Maybe playstyles differ, did you rarely use pause in the IE games? I used it frequently, so PoE's "out of sync" rounds aren't really annoying.

Yeah there is no way to affect cast times in Wacraft 3 or DotA and it is balanced by the initial numbers they set.

DotA and W3 have different, finely tuned cast points for every model and individual ability. That's a much more heavy handed approach then PoE's fast, average and slow groupings for weapons and spells. DotA also has turn rate which is near instant in PoE and BG.

Also DotA not being able to affect variables because of W3 engine limitations is a real reason to consider. DotA2 has spell damage scaling off of intelligence which just wasn't a possible for DotA, it got changed. Less likely since cast points are more muscle memory than damage numbers ofc.

Despite the Sawyer balance meme, PoE doesn't have to be nowhere near the balance of a PvP game. Faster action speed through gear and levels feels pretty good.

 

[Lacrymas]

Had the rounds in the IE games been less than 1 second like in PoE, the same kiting drawback would've been apparent there. It is apparent if you kite more than 6 seconds, too. If the only benefit we get from PoE's system is a drawback to kiting then I'd gladly sacrifice it for the IE games' structured rounds. This lack of restraints leads to many more problems than a cost of kiting fixes. Had PoE's AI been better then maybe its problem would've been much more obvious.

 

[CptMace]

Pretty sure we're in a reenactment of pillars 1 beta debates.
I'll cautiously assume that this chaotic recovery mechanic will be, like engagement for the first one, the least of PoE2's problems.

 

[Sensuki]

Like I said, I think you simply would prefer the game to be TB. I don't mind characters having different recovery and everything being more chaotic, there is always the pause key to issue orders.

what the fuck does turn based have to do with modifiers to action speed? nothing. The IE games are just as real time as Polyps of Eternity is

movement penalty to recovery is aids, dogshit design from/for people who cannot into unit control

Also DotA not being able to affect variables because of W3 engine limitations is a real reason to consider

It was only a limitation because the initial Wacraft 3 engine designers chose not to implement it and likely because they thought it would be terrible. Notice how the Dota2 devs didn't do it either.

Not saying that the PoE recovery system is terrible, but it is not the be all and end all of action speed design. It is simply one facet of the many ways that action speed can be governed. I think it's easy to understand on a paper level, but it makes things more unclear in combat, which is why they have to rely on obtrusive UI help. WC3 and IE are much better to play, and flow much better.

I'll cautiously assume that this chaotic recovery mechanic will be, like engagement for the first one, the least of PoE2's problems.

It's no different from the first game, afaik

 

[CptMace]

I haven't seen much of how combat works in beta, but it doesn't feel different indeed.
Main difference is penetration vs AC instead of a blunt DR applied to any attack. Which I think is a cool change on paper but after reading PrimeJunta's feedback I'm not so sure.
Other difference concerns concentration and interruption, looks like now concentration is a stackable buff which automatically cancels an interruption and is consumed in the process.

But yeah, we are in a reenactment of the first beta's debates. Which is understandable, since we have so little to discuss right now - that and the fact that the Roapa share what's left among them.

 

[Lacrymas]

Now that Sensuki mentioned the UI - is the UI more clear in the beta? Do buffs and debuffs show up in a way that can easily be seen?

 

[CptMace]

Imo right now, the UI is awful when it comes to buffs and debuffs.
Basically they shoved everything that affects a character next to his portrait, represented by a tiny icon. Maybe it's my monitor but these are so fucking tiny I have to hover the mouse on them everytime to seen what's up.
Cool addition is how combat log gives more information on action details by pressing SHIFT while hovering over a roll. You get the detail of each phase of the hit calculation, with each modifier. It's a much appreciated QOL improvement there.

 

[Sensuki]

those were in poe1 even in the first beta iirc?

 

[CptMace]

I think it's worse than in PoE1, although I couldn't be damned to launch both games and compare.
All I know is that it's fucking awful.

Spoiler

On the left, misses simply detail the hit chance, on the right it's a hit so there's the full detail.
Bottom are the tiny icons next to portraits. I guess it's the same size as in the first one yeah. Although now every passive effect is displayed here I guess - these are racials for instance.

Interestingly, since fine weapons all have 8PEN at the moment, the leather of my main character is automatically useless (edit: nevermind, leather has AC6 but only 4 against bludgeoning.)

By the way, I recommend the Warlock : Transform into an ogre, activate barbarian rage

 

[Parabalus]

Had the rounds in the IE games been less than 1 second like in PoE, the same kiting drawback would've been apparent there. It is apparent if you kite more than 6 seconds, too. If the only benefit we get from PoE's system is a drawback to kiting then I'd gladly sacrifice it for the IE games' structured rounds. This lack of restraints leads to many more problems than a cost of kiting fixes. Had PoE's AI been better then maybe its problem would've been much more obvious.

The primary benefit is that there is a stat which can increase your characters speed. It's another lever you can pull when building you character, "fixing" kiting is a rather minor side benefit. Including spells in the system, to give an additional way to power up spellcasters, is a great way of giving them power scaling since JS correctly axed the per level increases.

BG is pretty hectic with 10 APR too, that's 0.6 sec per action. PoE doesn't really go below that even hasted up.

Like I said, I think you simply would prefer the game to be TB. I don't mind characters having different recovery and everything being more chaotic, there is always the pause key to issue orders.

what the fuck does turn based have to do with modifiers to action speed? nothing. The IE games are just as real time as Polyps of Eternity is

movement penalty to recovery is aids, dogshit design from/for people who cannot into unit control

Also DotA not being able to affect variables because of W3 engine limitations is a real reason to consider

It was only a limitation because the initial Wacraft 3 engine designers chose not to implement it and likely because they thought it would be terrible. Notice how the Dota2 devs didn't do it either.

Not saying that the PoE recovery system is terrible, but it is not the be all and end all of action speed design. It is simply one facet of the many ways that action speed can be governed. I think it's easy to understand on a paper level, but it makes things more unclear in combat, which is why they have to rely on obtrusive UI help. WC3 and IE are much better to play, and flow much better.

I'll cautiously assume that this chaotic recovery mechanic will be, like engagement for the first one, the least of PoE2's problems.

It's no different from the first game, afaik

Speed increase in TB is just AP increase, so there is no added chaos. BG was closer to TB in this regard than PoE with it's immutable fixed 6 second rounds. PoE utilizes the RT element better by allowing you to modify action speed.

There has to be a penalty for shoot and move, alternatives are much higher firing times or turn rates a la DotA, both feel worse for the player.

Again, DotA's system is much more complex than PoE's, and heroes are balanced around different cast points. It's a PvP game where enemy player reaction speeds are important, there is no pause button like in PoE. Pillars doesn't have the same focus on denying enemy actions.

W3 a RTS, not an RPG, it's understandable that units don't have that many levers to pull. Meticulous cast point balancing was only a thing in DotA, not W3.