Pillars of Eternity series is better written than Pathfinder: Kingmaker

[Joseph Stalin]

Delterius Roguey

Only we don't arrive in Restov to gain our own land. The whole project is a secret, so that House Surtova doesn't butt in, so we find out about gaining a potential barony at the meeting with Lady Aldori.

See what I mean? You might as well play an amnesiac Gordon Freeman, for all the character and flavour you can inject into your protagonist. Other than alignment, neither race, class, nor religion really play a role - they have a very, very small handful of unique reactions (for example, Aasimar has one; a follower of Nethys has two; a follower of Gozreh has one etc.)

It's ok to be an adventurer who was just going to do his job, adventuring, but gained an extra motivationings and became King/Queen/Il Presidenterius.

I like PoE and Calisca's dialogue is a nice touch but its not necessary because I already bought a game about Kingmaking and since that's what I want to do I'll create my character with world knowledge of Golarion/Thedas/Eora tyvm.

Doesn't change the fact that we're playing a blank slate, and mostly stay one throughout the game. Because alignment is the only thing that matters when it comes to decision-making in dialogues, we can't really create a personality as much as a philosophy. Sawyer had a good idea with his Dispositions. Just expand on that.

EDIT: The game also falls hard on the old, and bad, tradition of "dialogue options unlocked via high *insert parameter here* are always the best ones", something which both PoE actively tried to avoid.

 

[Delterius]

Doesn't change the fact that we're playing a blank slate

I like that.

a personality as much as a philosophy

TBH my character was this mafia king bro who protects non cunts of his realm regardless of good and evil. Very nice. Dunno if that's a philosophy. Hegelian Realfriendonism maybe?

Sawyer had a good idea with his Dispositions.

That's cool too but Deadfire ruined the Cruel disposition (it became school bully) and there's still how almost everyone seems to end up with every Disposition at a high level.

Just expand on that.

Nice idea. Kingmaker's writing is still straightfoward though.

> Lady calls for adventurers.

> Tells them the reward is being Baron.

> PC is the only non <unreasonable cunt> available so they get the reward.

If you're confused by that then you can't run a Planned Economy, comrade. Please don't turn me into a Dengist.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

Doesn't change the fact that we're playing a blank slate

I like that.

a personality as much as a philosophy

TBH my character was this mafia king bro who protects non cunts of his realm regardless of good and evil. Very nice. Dunno if that's a philosophy. Hegelian Realfriendonism maybe?

Sawyer had a good idea with his Dispositions.

That's cool too but Deadfire ruined the Cruel disposition (it became school bully) and there's still how almost everyone seems to end up with every Disposition at a high level.

Just expand on that.

Nice idea. Kingmaker's writing is still straightfoward though.

> Lady calls for adventurers.

> Tells them the reward is being Baron.

> PC is the only non <unreasonable cunt> available so they get the reward.

If you're confused by that then you can't run a Planned Economy, comrade. Please don't turn me into a Dengist.

The problem is that, outside the Player Character, nobody wants the barony. Even Tartuccio doesn't, since he's got a different agenda going. Obvious candidates, like Jaehtal or Kanerah, both of whom are power-hungry, suddenly don't give a shit about gaining power. You become Baron out of default.

 

[Delterius]

The problem is that, outside the Player Character, nobody wants the barony. Even Tartuccio doesn't, since he's got a different agenda going. Obvious candidates, like Jaehtal or Kanerah, both of whom are power-hungry, suddenly don't give a shit about gaining power. You become Baron out of default.

What part of 'everyone in your party came to trust your leadership' do you find confusing?

You are still all over the place. You call the plot confusing when its so simple and straightforward. When called out on it, you just talk about something else you personally see as bad. It's spastic tbh.

EDIT: The game also falls hard on the old, and bad, tradition of "dialogue options unlocked via high *insert parameter here* are always the best ones", something which both PoE actively tried to avoid.

Not really true. PoE had some material gains for high levels of Benevolent, Cruel and Honest. It just so happens they are cosmetic or at most pointless, like sparing Gathbin's commander in Defiance Bay. There's only one instance of 'subvertion' of that, where a mid level of Deceitful makes the Wael Priestess not trust you.

Further you are all over the place. At one point you're talking about motivation and personality of a character. Then you talk about high parameters. Chaotic Good isn't a 'higher parameter' than Chaotic Neutral. It is a difference in kind. A benevolent character that acts morally almost every time won't be able to look past the bullshit of House Surtova and will most likely ally the Aldori. This applies to all alignments, influencing Kingdom policy and a handful of choices you get to make. There is nothing in the game or even in your accusations which makes the writing of Kingmaker anything but straightforward.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

The problem is that, outside the Player Character, nobody wants the barony. Even Tartuccio doesn't, since he's got a different agenda going. Obvious candidates, like Jaehtal or Kanerah, both of whom are power-hungry, suddenly don't give a shit about gaining power. You become Baron out of default.

What part of 'everyone in your party came to trust your leadership' do you find confusing?

You are still all over the place. You call the plot confusing when its so simple and straightforward. When called out on it, you just talk about something else you personally see as bad. It's spastic tbh.

EDIT: The game also falls hard on the old, and bad, tradition of "dialogue options unlocked via high *insert parameter here* are always the best ones", something which both PoE actively tried to avoid.

Not really true. PoE had some material gains for high levels of Benevolent, Cruel and Honest. It just so happens they are cosmetic or at most pointless, like sparing Gathbin's commander in Defiance Bay. There's only one instance of 'subvertion' of that, where a mid level of Deceitful makes the Wael Priestess not trust you.

Further you are all over the place. At one point you're talking about motivation and personality of a character. Then you talk about high parameters. Chaotic Good isn't a 'higher parameter' than Chaotic Neutral. It is a difference in kind. A benevolent character that acts morally almost every time won't be able to look past the bullshit of House Surtova and will most likely ally the Aldori. This applies to all alignments, influencing Kingdom policy and a handful of choices you get to make. There is nothing in the game or even in your accusations which makes the writing of Kingmaker anything but straightforward.

Just out of the top of my head I know there were at least two examples of such in Gilded Vale alone. For example, you could fuck up the windmill quest if you chose the option unlocked via high Resolve. I wasn't just talking about options unlocked via Dispositions, but also those via Attributes and Skills. They can bite you in the ass if you just blindly choose them "because they're unlocked options, so obviously the best ones."

 

[Nortar]

Really? The writing is straightforward? Riddle me this, then - WHY does the main character wants to become Baron?

Characters who did not want to became Baron fucked off right after Aldori's speech.
Just like characters who were born without Baal's blood kept on living their boring little lives in Candlekeep.
And all those vault citizens who were not good enough to be chosen and kept sitting on their thumbs when someone else went out looking for the water chip.

 

[Delterius]

Just out of the top of my head I know there were at least two examples of such in Gilded Vale alone. For example, you could fuck up the windmill quest if you chose the option unlocked via high Resolve. I wasn't just talking about options unlocked via Dispositions, but also those via Attributes and Skills. They can bite you in the ass if you just blindly choose them "because they're unlocked options, so obviously the best ones."

> The writing of Kingmaker isn't straightfoward, tell me, what is the PC's motivation?

> What the fuck has one to do with the other.

> Also, PoE has this quest with a farmer if you use high resolve its bad (according to me).

> Hello, sir, are you ok?

> Alignments are philosophies, you cannot express a character just because you make moral and ethical choices.

> Sir I'm gonna have to ask you to leave sir.

> POE HAS REALLY GOOD WRITING LIKE A CHARACTER CAN BE KNOWN TO BE BOTH EXTREMELY HONEST AND DECEITFUL AT THE SAME TIME.

> Goodbye sir.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

Just out of the top of my head I know there were at least two examples of such in Gilded Vale alone. For example, you could fuck up the windmill quest if you chose the option unlocked via high Resolve. I wasn't just talking about options unlocked via Dispositions, but also those via Attributes and Skills. They can bite you in the ass if you just blindly choose them "because they're unlocked options, so obviously the best ones."

> The writing of Kingmaker isn't straightfoward, tell me, what is the PC's motivation?

> What the fuck has one to do with the other.

> Also, PoE has this quest with a farmer if you use high resolve its bad (according to me).

> Hello, sir, are you ok?

> Alignments are philosophies, you cannot express a character just because you make moral and ethical choices.

> Sir I'm gonna have to ask you to leave sir.

> POE HAS REALLY GOOD WRITING LIKE A CHARACTER CAN BE KNOWN TO BE BOTH EXTREMELY HONEST AND DECEITFUL AT THE SAME TIME.

> Goodbye sir.

Ran out of arguments, have you? Good to know. Cheers.

And no, I'm not going to write essays in response to your moot diatribes.

 

[Delterius]

Just out of the top of my head I know there were at least two examples of such in Gilded Vale alone. For example, you could fuck up the windmill quest if you chose the option unlocked via high Resolve. I wasn't just talking about options unlocked via Dispositions, but also those via Attributes and Skills. They can bite you in the ass if you just blindly choose them "because they're unlocked options, so obviously the best ones."

> The writing of Kingmaker isn't straightfoward, tell me, what is the PC's motivation?

> What the fuck has one to do with the other.

> Also, PoE has this quest with a farmer if you use high resolve its bad (according to me).

> Hello, sir, are you ok?

> Alignments are philosophies, you cannot express a character just because you make moral and ethical choices.

> Sir I'm gonna have to ask you to leave sir.

> POE HAS REALLY GOOD WRITING LIKE A CHARACTER CAN BE KNOWN TO BE BOTH EXTREMELY HONEST AND DECEITFUL AT THE SAME TIME.

> Goodbye sir.

> Ah yes, they ran out of arguments. I am the alpha predator of facts and logic.

 

[Xamenos]

Speaking of motivation, why does your character in PoE decide leave to his home and settle in a cursed frontier? Why does he abandon this goal so easily to go on an adventure, hunting ancient cults and body-hopping villains? Why does Thaos want to go through all the trouble and risk of restoring Woedica to her place as the head of the pantheon when he should be serving the pantheon as a whole? And why does does an advanced, religious society, when faced with absolute proof that their gods are not real, decide to calmly commit collective suicide to create fake gods for others to worship?

Joseph Stalin, you're still ignoring my questions for Poe motivations. How much more straightforward are they than KM's?

 

[Joseph Stalin]

Just out of the top of my head I know there were at least two examples of such in Gilded Vale alone. For example, you could fuck up the windmill quest if you chose the option unlocked via high Resolve. I wasn't just talking about options unlocked via Dispositions, but also those via Attributes and Skills. They can bite you in the ass if you just blindly choose them "because they're unlocked options, so obviously the best ones."

> The writing of Kingmaker isn't straightfoward, tell me, what is the PC's motivation?

> What the fuck has one to do with the other.

> Also, PoE has this quest with a farmer if you use high resolve its bad (according to me).

> Hello, sir, are you ok?

> Alignments are philosophies, you cannot express a character just because you make moral and ethical choices.

> Sir I'm gonna have to ask you to leave sir.

> POE HAS REALLY GOOD WRITING LIKE A CHARACTER CAN BE KNOWN TO BE BOTH EXTREMELY HONEST AND DECEITFUL AT THE SAME TIME.

> Goodbye sir.

> Ah yes, they ran out of arguments. I am the alpha predator of facts and logic.

At least that last paraphrase introduced some truth into your otherwise banal sarcasm.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

Speaking of motivation, why does your character in PoE decide leave to his home and settle in a cursed frontier? Why does he abandon this goal so easily to go on an adventure, hunting ancient cults and body-hopping villains? Why does Thaos want to go through all the trouble and risk of restoring Woedica to her place as the head of the pantheon when he should be serving the pantheon as a whole? And why does does an advanced, religious society, when faced with absolute proof that their gods are not real, decide to calmly commit collective suicide to create fake gods for others to worship?

Joseph Stalin, you're still ignoring my questions for Poe motivations. How much more straightforward are they than KM's?

He's "cursed" and will go insane if he does nothing. Maerwald is the living example of the end of said process. And, if you fuck up in the game, you can still get an ending where you become a rambling, insane old man.

As to the motivations of moving to the frontier, it's also clear - Raedric is giving away land. Only once you actually get to Gilded Vale do you find out this is not the case anymore.

 

[Xamenos]

He's "cursed" and will go insane if he does nothing. Maerwald is the living example of the end of said process. And, if you fuck up in the game, you can still get an ending where you become a rambling, insane old man.

And why does the character think the best solution is to go after the quasi-mythical villain who cursed him and his secret organization instead of, say, return to civilization and look for a cure there?

As to the motivations of moving to the frontier, it's also clear - Raedric is giving away land. Only once you actually get to Gilded Vale do you find out this is not the case anymore.

And why does he want that free land on a cursed frontier?

You still haven't answered all my previous questions, btw.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

He's "cursed" and will go insane if he does nothing. Maerwald is the living example of the end of said process. And, if you fuck up in the game, you can still get an ending where you become a rambling, insane old man.

And why does the character think the best solution is to go after the quasi-mythical villain who cursed him and his secret organization instead of, say, return to civilization and look for a cure there?

As to the motivations of moving to the frontier, it's also clear - Raedric is giving away land. Only once you actually get to Gilded Vale do you find out this is not the case anymore.

And why does he want that free land on a cursed frontier?

You still haven't answered all my previous questions, btw.

As I wrote to Delterius, I'm not about to start writing essays here. Only Baldur's Gate has me autistic enough to do it.

Nobody who travels to Gilded Vale knows it's "cursed". Word of Waidwen's Legacy hasn't really travelled beyond the country.

 

[Xamenos]

As I wrote to Delterius, I'm not about to start writing essays here. Only Baldur's Gate has me autistic enough to do it.

Nobody who travels to Gilded Vale knows it's "cursed". Word of Waidwen's Legacy hasn't really travelled beyond the country.

And yet, this is the exact same question you want answered for KM. "Why does your character want the Barony" is not at all more reasonable than those I asked you.

And you seriously expect me to believe that NO ONE knows about children being born soulless in an entire country for more than a decade? This is what you consider good writing?

 

[LannTheStupid]

He's "cursed" and will go insane if he does nothing.

No.

A future Watcher went to the foreign land as a settler to obtain farmland. It's colonization 101, and a very American story to boot. Then the caravan is ambushed by angry tribesmen (which is very American as well), and only then a future Watcher becomes the Watcher after surviving the Bîaŵac. And even before recognizing all the curse related things s/he actually comes to the destination village and finds out that the colonists who came before do not like the hero that much, and that the land promise is, basically, a lie. Which is, again, very freaking American, when older immigrants bully not only indigenous people, but newer immigrants as well.

The story of the noble house of Aldori granting nobility to a capable vassal is much more Russian in its core.

And why does he want that free land on a cursed frontier?

Because he was cheated. Or thought the curse is not important (as COVID-19 dissidents do). Or he just of an adventurous type.

I think the motivations of all American settlers moving west are summed up by those 3 items. Well, may be with the exception of religious groups hiding from persecution like Mormons.

 

[purpleblob]

Can you guys stop plaguing this chat with PoE garbage.

 

[Shadenuat]

"pc motivation"

unique class dialogue: i am thief, I come to stolen lands for loot
paladin: i am paladin, I come to smite evil

and then you kill everything anyway as a thief, and hoard all the loot as a paladin.

I agree game lacks in actual kingdom roleplay, Crusader Kings has more roleplay that pathfinder with its text events. Your neighbors are also underused (Irovetti is wasted as character, Varn could have been fleshed out inside game, not DLC, why no companions who are citizens of these lands too? Hargulka for companion > Ekun)

"building up whole philosophy in roleplay" - counter intuitive for type of game, you don't mix icewind dale with planescape, but make separate game for it (like Disco).
if you try to mix them and drag game into 3 different directions, you get PoE.

class/race unique dialogue, too many of them to make it relevant, will be just cosmetic filler. Which is why they picked alignments, and for Wrath - epics.

However, could probably use some sort of umbrella checks. For example, Arcane Magic [VI] or combination of "thief" classes [%]. Checking stuff like Arcane Magic would make it possible to give reactivity to all classes with arcane magic. And then imagine checks like AM X in text quest : [Success] "Lich turns enemy army into fucking dust".

 

[Zero Credibility]

And you seriously expect me to believe that NO ONE knows about children being born soulless in an entire country for more than a decade?

Yeah, that's kind of an issue alright. A whole country going full on Children of Men is not something that would be possible to hide for long. This is a god damn apocalypse, made even worse by the medieval setting where lots of young are needed to grow enough food to keep everyone alive. Which begs the question, just who the hell would be desperate and/or stupid enough to decide to immigrate there with that shit going on?

 

[LannTheStupid]

Which begs the question, just who the hell would be desperate and/or stupid enough to decide to immigrate there with that shit going on?

Irish dying from starvation, because no potato? Ukrainians pressed into life time servitude by the Czar government? Jews escaping literal physical death? Poles whose country is occupied for two centuries?

If you think IRL New York was much better than Pillars' Defiance Bay, think again.

 

[Sarkile]

Can we stop the Pillars talk please? I don’t hate the series by any means, but I’m only here for the incline.

 

[The_Mask]

Delt fucked 'im up so good, he self ejected. lol

 

[Ontopoly]

Can we stop the Pillars talk please? I don’t hate the series by any means, but I’m only here for the incline.

Everything is connected. To fully understand the incline of pathfinder, you need to under stand every other rpg. All rpg discussion is relevant in this thread.

 

[Sarkile]

Can we stop the Pillars talk please? I don’t hate the series by any means, but I’m only here for the incline.

Everything is connected. To fully understand the incline of pathfinder, you need to under stand every other rpg. All rpg discussion is relevant in this thread.

PoE has an interesting world with a lot of potential. But the game itself was boring as hell, the lore dumps were the written version of nails on a chalkboard, and most NPCs were at best inadequate.

Pathfinder reversed each of those points. It is the Anti-PoE.

 

[LannTheStupid]

class/race unique dialogue, too many of them to make it relevant, will be just cosmetic filler.

Well, it depends on your level of tolerance. Most of the checks are probably cosmetic, but if a setting explicitly offers very special races with very special background, and it is not reflected in reactions to the MC - it is a no-go for me. That is why I cannot play neither gnome nor elf MC in Kingmaker.