Pillars of Eternity series is better written than Pathfinder: Kingmaker

[Xamenos]

I even ran Kingmaker and couldn't remember half of that stuff lol. What I do remember is the game being way, way better about representing the fey threat. That felt underdeveloped in the adventure path

Oh, yes, the fey threat came out of nowhere after Pitax. The whole foreshadowing in tabletop was a random unicorn corpse that the players could randomly find in the woods (murderd by Nyrissa, but the players have no way to know about that), and the Stag Lord ranting about his Queen. There was no way for the players to even know that Nyrissa existed before they talked to Irovetti or that nymph under the Abbey.

 

[Grunker]

I even ran Kingmaker and couldn't remember half of that stuff lol. What I do remember is the game being way, way better about representing the fey threat. That felt underdeveloped in the adventure path

Oh, yes, the fey threat came out of nowhere after Pitax. The whole foreshadowing in tabletop was a random unicorn corpse that the players could randomly find in the woods (murderd by Nyrissa, but the players have no way to know about that), and the Stag Lord ranting about his Queen. There was no way for the players to even know that Nyrissa existed before they talked to Irovetti or that nymph under the Abbey.

I am of the unpopular opinion that Kingmaker isn't a very good adventure path and the only two reasons it holds status as one of the best in the PF community is that:

1) People were starved for open-ended content (and just compare Tomb of Annihilation's hex-crawling to Kingmaker's - it's superior in every way and with much more room for GM expansion)
2) YOU GET TO RUN YOUR OWN KINGDOM MAN (yeah, with real, real shitty rules)

I had way more fun with Way of the Wicked and stuff like that. Even though incidentally WotW's "kingdom rules" were also kind of shit.

 

[Parabalus]

YOU GET TO RUN YOUR OWN KINGDOM MAN (yeah, with real, real shitty rules)

Is it shitty?

One of the only good strongholds in an RPGs, probably the best.

 

[Desiderius]

P:K fits better with the inherently comic nature of the genre.

That's fair, and there is no question that the PoEs don't live up to their philosophical premise, but my expectations are no doubt lower than most Codexers' when it comes to CRPGs. If they were works of literature, I'd laugh at whoever deems them anything more than mediocre efforts at best, but the fact that the series simply tries to address such issues is good enough for me in this particular context. So while your praise of PF:K's comparative lack of ambition is legitimate, while there is nothing wrong with Owlcat's decision to play it safe by sticking to the genre's tried-and-true strengths, I just happen to find that kind of straightforward classicism a bit boring at the moment.

De gustibus non est disputandum but to my mind that’s just your nihilism “laughing.” The great literature of this age is not to be found in the usual places (nor was that of past ages - thus are new genres born - nor fully appreciated - or appreciated at all - in the time in which it emerged.

For what it’s worth neither PoE’s nor Owlcat’s writing embarrasses itself in that pantheon and they both outshine the dreck on offer from the officious literature of the day.

 

[Shadenuat]

I just happen to find that kind of straightforward classicism a bit boring at the moment.

whats not classicism in PoE? what is different about your roleplay there? are you weak like in AoD? are you very strong? are you truly cursed, like in MoTB? are you exploring in depth part of the fantasy world? maybe in depth of your job, or a class?
silly JRPGs where instead of ancient SAULS and GAWDS you can run a shop as poor alchemist girl are less classical than Poe.

Is it shitty?

it's shitty build buildings out of cutout pages of cardboard and its shittenes translated into computer game as well.

no players are interested in slapping buildings with bonuses into little squares. they want roleplay, to feel that their decisions have weight and create new stories.

 

[Parabalus]

it's shitty build buildings out of cutout pages of cardboard and its shittenes translated into computer game as well.

no players are interested in slapping buildings with bonuses into little squares. they want roleplay, to feel that their decisions have weight and create new stories.

The city building is just one small part of the experience though.

But even in city building there is C&C from your char (LE rules), and how you build early has an impact on which advisers you unlock first.

 

[Desiderius]

Keyboard Tourette’s due to being tag-teamed by two three-year-olds.

 

[MarxistPlato]

To be fair guys, if someone want light-hearted adventure set in Pathfinder (i don't know this setting to well, but i think DnD is more mature) then Kingmaker is really for him.

But if someone want more toned experience set in something that resembles of oldschool DnD games like Icewind Dale or Baldur's Gate - then PoE is for him.

I would say, that, that light atmosphere of Kingmaker was such a turn off for me. I was really hyped for it, i still remember waiting it to come out from kickstarter; but now i couldn't bother less about it. It is much more shallow game than i expected it to be - but maybe my expectations of it were too large. World felt shallow, setting was something uninteresting (much more than PoE, which had at least lore presented to you on start), some characters were just, i don't know, like from some jRPG? For example this orc and Olivia (as far as i remember) who were some threesome couple thing. Oh yeah, but that the sex part - the most sad thing was, that as powerful as they were when rescuing them, you just could see that they were some teenage wannabe heroes of century, where in PoE you had characters that felt much more real in that regard. Eder is a perfect example, but there's Durance, Mother, Aloth (i liked him, because he was a type of a guy like a Virgil from Arcanum).

And on the other hand, you have Pillars of Eternity - Somewhat grim setting, more linear (i really preferred first game in that, second was an interesting idea that fell flat imho) with a more adult content, less nuances like threesomes or whatever else there is. And damn, even if it's on unity, graphics are really on point capturing that. And coming back to linear part - it was really nice way to introduce you to world; camping at first, then discovering some things, then working your way up from small village to big cities). I really hated how Kingmaker played that out.

And there's gameplay, but that's not the topic about it unfortunately.

 

[pomenitul]

whats not classicism in PoE?

Like I said, its obvious ambivalence towards eliciting suspension of disbelief. It's a game that has little narrative faith in the kind of fiction on which its stated genre typically operates, and that is noteworthy in its own right, whether or not you think it succeeds in this regard.

 

[Grunker]

Parabalus Shadenuat we were talking about the module. It uses even more basic rules. I kindda-sortta like the game's version of it. It's better, at least.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Kingmaker's writing is like good fan-fiction. It delivers a generally satisfying, if pulpy experience while occasionally faltering in its immaturity. Pillars of Eternity is the droll student in Intro Philosophy 101 who knows their opinion is the correct one, and will indulge the class until everyone understands it.

I agree with Desiderius that KM subverts all of the initially nauseating NPCs. They actually grow and change. The slightly exaggerated personalities work because it's a top-down isometric game. There is a lot of nuance to human interaction that gets lost this way, so having them being a slight caricature helps us understand them. Both settings are equally bad. Kingmaker in its childish amateurism and Pillars in its childish attempts at maturity. Kingmaker doesn't attempt to get you invested in the setting though--it merely takes place there. Pillars tries to show you how its not D&D. Kingmaker's plot is grandiose and fantastical, but actually fun. The common reprise of failed ambitions and redemption is well woven throughout it. While the plot itself can sometimes meander, never does the writing become overbearing or forced. It's not that Kingmaker doesn't take itself seriously enough, so much as Pillars of Eternity takes itself far too seriously. Pillars attempts to be a gritty thriller that makes every scroll of text and quest feel like a chore. It behaved like Planescape, but forgot to bring the talent that made that style and the rest of the game playable.

 

[Shadenuat]

To be fair guys, if someone want light-hearted adventure set in Pathfinder (i don't know this setting to well, but i think DnD is more mature) then Kingmaker is really for him.

But if someone want more toned experience set in something that resembles of oldschool DnD games like Icewind Dale or Baldur's Gate - then PoE is for him.

Arcanum

 

[MarxistPlato]

To be fair guys, if someone want light-hearted adventure set in Pathfinder (i don't know this setting to well, but i think DnD is more mature) then Kingmaker is really for him.

But if someone want more toned experience set in something that resembles of oldschool DnD games like Icewind Dale or Baldur's Gate - then PoE is for him.

Arcanum

 

[Dycedarg]

Having played the original PoE on release and Kingmaker just recently, I simply don't see it. The Hollowborn issue on the first Pillars game never seemed like a threat at all, simply because neither you nor your companions seemed to have any skin in the game. The only exception was Grieving Mother, but you only know this because she tells you so, not because of anything you experience in the game. On the other hand, Kingmaker does a much better job of making you invested in both the main plot and in your companions problems.

As for Deadfire, I'm afraid to say I never played it, nor have I any intention to do so in the future. But I'll gladly play Wrath of the Righteous when it comes out.

 

[pomenitul]

Pillars attempts to be a gritty thriller that makes every scroll of text and quest feel like a chore.

Not much of a 'thriller' vibe to the PoEs but the rest is a fair take. It just so happens that, in my CRPG dotage, the sophomoric philosophy student is still more interesting to me than the garish fanfic, but I respect those for whom this is not the case as long as they acknowledge what the PoE series sought to achieve, be it in vain.

 

[MarxistPlato]

Pillars attempts to be a gritty thriller that makes every scroll of text and quest feel like a chore.

Not much of a 'thriller' vibe to the PoEs but the rest is a fair take. It just so happens that, in my CRPG dotage, the sophomoric philosophy student is still more interesting to me than the garish fanfic, but I respect those for whom this is not the case as long as they acknowledge what the PoE series sought to achieve, be it in vain.

Exactly, homeless man.

 

[Grunker]

no players are interested in slapping buildings with bonuses into little squares. they want roleplay, to feel that their decisions have weight and create new stories.

Incidentally, this is why I, ironically, think that BG still ranks among the best strongholds. It's incredibly basic and there's next to no C&C, but you get unique questlines and can choose the outcomes of different stuff. So the only focus here is on said stories.

PF:K has a lot of that with the throne room interactions, and the "card"-system, which is way more important for your Kingdom's stats anyways, have a bit of that too. You can get items and kingdom-wide bonuses from them and stuff. It's not perfect but it's something.

 

[Shadenuat]

If card system led more often to interesting events it would be good, but it just ends up a part of formulaic routine.
In BG strongholds added to the main thing about d&d and that game - more quests, more adventure.

I just seriously begin to despise any formulaic samy same add-on slap shit in RPGs at this point sorry esp for 150 hours.

 

[LannTheStupid]

After reading walls of barely comprehensible English in this thread I admire comrade Zhdanov and hongweibings of the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution much more.

 

[pomenitul]

Relevant username is relevant.

 

[LannTheStupid]

 

[Delterius]

no players are interested in slapping buildings with bonuses into little squares. they want roleplay,

bold of you to assume I wasn't roleplaying when I built brothels in every town

 

[Shadenuat]

no players are interested in slapping buildings with bonuses into little squares. they want roleplay,

bold of you to assume I wasn't roleplaying when I built brothels in every town

u built them to get +to diplomat and minister fag

 

[NJClaw]

no players are interested in slapping buildings with bonuses into little squares. they want roleplay,

bold of you to assume I wasn't roleplaying when I built brothels in every town

What was I roleplaying with all those aviaries and bulletin boards?

 

[The Jester]

Don't mock me but i like kingdom management, makes me feel like
I IS KANG N SHEET.