Pillars of Eternity series is better written than Pathfinder: Kingmaker

[jungl]

PoE has an interesting world with a lot of potential. But the game itself was boring as hell, the lore dumps were the written version of nails on a chalkboard, and most NPCs were at best inadequate.

Pathfinder reversed each of those points. It is the Anti-PoE.

Have you played pathfinder? The only npcs are your companions that have a handful of lines everyone else is a generic villager. Pathfinder has the most boring world i seen in a crpg to date every map is the same green landscape copy pasted. Name me one crpg with a more boring world.

 

[Sarkile]

PoE has an interesting world with a lot of potential. But the game itself was boring as hell, the lore dumps were the written version of nails on a chalkboard, and most NPCs were at best inadequate.

Pathfinder reversed each of those points. It is the Anti-PoE.

Have you played pathfinder? The only npcs are your companions that have a handful of lines everyone else is a generic villager. Pathfinder has the most boring world i seen in a crpg to date every map is the same green landscape copy pasted. Name me one crpg with a more boring world.

PoE has an interesting world with a lot of potential...Pathfinder reversed each of those points. It is the Anti-PoE.

 

[Desiderius]

EDIT: The game also falls hard on the old, and bad, tradition of "dialogue options unlocked via high *insert parameter here* are always the best ones", something which both PoE actively tried to avoid.

Just blew half my night last night trying to get the boss of Crookspur to leave without having to fight my way through five meaningless fights. Turns out I didn't stack enough Diplo on my main thinking that having each companion specialize would be the better approach.

But yeah been pleasantly surprised at Deadfire responsiveness once the game hit it's stride. P:K has a lot of replayability but the responsiveness is kind of hit or miss. Game won me over when Removing the Curse from the dog actually worked spectacularly. That's the kind of responsiveness you remember.

 

[Roguey]

The story of the noble house of Aldori granting nobility to a capable vassal is much more Russian in its core.

The Kingmaker adventure path was written by Americans. It would be accurate to say they were trying to be pseudo-European as trad fant typically is.

 

[LannTheStupid]

The Kingmaker adventure path was written by Americans.

If you check the Xamenos post about the differences between Paizo and Owlcat kingmaker paths you will see that the best parts are added by Russians. Or by Russians and MCA.

 

[user]

Sorry, but PoE reactivity my ass. PoE has a few mostly decorative character creation checks here and there. So what? P:K puts PoE to shame when it comes to C&C and amount/distribution of skill checks. Nearly all skills are used plenty of times within the game, and their outcome is, more often than not, interesting. Not to say that PoE is bad - it has a few interesting areas (neketaka, cookspur and that vampire fortress and DLC places) but it's mostly barren compared to P:K, and I don't see how anyone who has actually finished and paid attention to both games, can say otherwise. P:K also does RP right, isn't afraid of letting you fail or get locked out of important choices and does evil better than any game I have seen in a really long time, which also puts the rest of the choices in perspective and makes them all the more valuable. Tbh the only thing PoE does better is its admittedly beautiful 2D art.

 

[Delterius]

The Kingmaker adventure path was written by Americans.

If you check the Xamenos post about the differences between Paizo and Owlcat kingmaker paths you will see that the best parts are added by Russians. Or by Russians and MCA.

Yeah but italian descending lady (Rostlanders are Taldans) summoning adventurers to make them into boyars was written by Americans. So yeah this isn't quite the Witcher of east slavians.

What Owlcat did and kudos to them was to rationalize a freeform Adventure Path into a working single player CRPG storyline. If you read people's experiences with Kingmaker older DMs always recommend that people lean on one of the thematic lines according to what the players focus on. Owlcat chose the Fey approach and making Nyrissa the primary antagonist from the get go. That's one approach. But what if the players keep chasing something else as a plot hook? That's why a lot of people seem to focus on the ancient Cyclops Empire or the Brevoy Civil War. A choice has to be made.

Also

Spoiler

Nyrissa getting fucked by the Eldest because she wanted a Kingdom instead of her loving Count Ranalc is much better and makes her a foil for the protagonist so kudos again.

 

[Dodo1610]

Who is Count Ranalc? Is he even in the CRPG adaption or did I just miss that part?

 

[Delterius]

Who is Count Ranalc? Is he even in the CRPG adaption or did I just miss that part?

Count Ranalc isn't featured at all in the CRPG.

Spoiler

In the AP Nyrissa's fall from grace occurs because she was in love with one of the Eldest, Count Ranalc. She wanted to impress the other Eldest by merging Thousandbreaths with a piece of Golarion. But just as Ranalc was eventually banished from the First World and adjacent planes as The Traitor, Nyrissa got the short end of the stick herself.

In the game, Nyrissa's motivation was her pride and ambition. She wanted to create and expand her own little realm. She succeeded to a point and became the Nymph Queen of Thousandbreaths. But all fey who seek to claim dominion in the First World need to step on someone else's toes eventually. And by their very nature as a growing power, they vex the Eldest. So they sent the true Jabberwocky to destroy her and her sisters.

 

[Xamenos]

Who is Count Ranalc? Is he even in the CRPG adaption or did I just miss that part?

Spoiler

No. they cut him out and for very good reason. In the original AP he's an Eldest with whom Nyrissa had a relationship in ancient times. This was the reason for her punishment. There was no Apology or a Lantern King plot. As LannTheStupid said, there's an older post of mine listing the differences between the AP and the CRPG like this one.

 

[Grunker]

Who is Count Ranalc? Is he even in the CRPG adaption or did I just miss that part?

Spoiler

No. they cut him out and for very good reason. In the original AP he's an Eldest with whom Nyrissa had a relationship in ancient times. This was the reason for her punishment. There was no Apology or a Lantern King plot. As LannTheStupid said, there's an older post of mine listing the differences between the AP and the CRPG like this one.

Then for God's sakes man put it in your sig so the lazy bastards amongst us can find it

 

[pomenitul]

The Eternal Return of the Same in full effect, yet again.

I'm too lazy to argue with the hivemind, whose very identity is defined by its detestation of all things PoE-related, but PF:K's writing is generic fantasy fare incarnate (with bonus ESL for extra stylistic clumsiness), whereas the PoE series at least seeks to subvert certain tropes via its thematic emphasis on deflation and loss of belief. Its tone, especially in the first instalment, is mildly downcast, which clashes with the genre's traditionally heroic expectations, and it is perfectly fair to dislike for that reason and/or to critique its execution, which – as with all CRPGs in existence (including… PS:T) – is lacking when set against whatever Platonic Ideal you have in mind. Be that as it may, I, for one, had more, yes, fun with PoE's adult themes than I did with PF:K's forced nostalgia, and I say this as someone who idolizes the IE games. I will also say that PoE's visual design is more painterly overall, which also hearkens back to the IE games to a greater extent than PF:K's unatmospheric aesthetic – and these things do matter if I'm going to spend dozens of hours staring at a computer screen. Combat-wise, however, PF:K was indeed a solid romp, so if you are a bona fide combatfag and prefer Owlcat's opus strictly on those grounds, I have no bone to pick with you – 'tis indeed a fair call, even though I think the PoEs also do a more than decent job on that front. In fact, my verdict is that PF:K is a good game, but the 'Dex overrates it about as much as it underrates the PoEs.

 

[Desiderius]

The story of the noble house of Aldori granting nobility to a capable vassal is much more Russian in its core.

The Kingmaker adventure path was written by Americans. It would be accurate to say they were trying to be pseudo-European as trad fant typically is.

Nothing pseudo about it Roguester. Cultural memory isn’t so easily eradicated no matter how hard the bastards try.

 

[Desiderius]

The Eternal Return of the Same in full effect, yet again.

I'm too lazy to argue with the hivemind, whose very identity is defined by its detestation of all things PoE-related, but PF:K's writing is generic fantasy fare incarnate (with bonus ESL for extra stylistic clumsiness), whereas the PoE series at least seeks to subvert certain tropes via its thematic emphasis on deflation and loss of belief. Its tone, especially in the first instalment, is mildly downcast, which clashes with the genre's traditionally heroic expectations, and it is perfectly fair to dislike for that reason and/or to critique its execution, which – as with all CRPGs in existence (including… PS:T) – is lacking when set against whatever Platonic Ideal you have in mind. Be that as it may, I, for one, had more, yes, fun with PoE's adult themes than I did with PF:K's forced nostalgia, and I say this as someone who idolizes the IE games. I will also say that PoE's visual design is more painterly overall, which also hearkens back to the IE games to a greater extent than PF:K's unatmospheric aesthetic – and these things do matter if I'm going to spend dozens of hours staring at a computer screen. Combat-wise, however, PF:K was indeed a solid romp, so if you are a bona fide combatfag and prefer Owlcat's opus strictly on those grounds, I have no bone to pick with you – 'tis indeed a fair call, even though I think the PoEs also do a more than decent job on that front. In fact, my verdict is that PF:K is a good game, but the 'Dex overrates it about as much as it underrates the PoEs.

Kinda nihilistic about all the nihilism tbh.

P:K subverts all you played out subversives. Deadfire lost its nerve right when the Poz hit the abandoned son and the price of Eder’s freedom. You’re gonna need a bigger fig leaf than “deflation and loss of belief” to cover up that shit.

Let me know when you faggots are ready to step up to that plate.

 

[Nano]

It baffles me that people praise Kingmaker and its cutesy, cartoonish writing. I know that Avellone hasn't written an RPG for the past 9 years but how low can your standards get?

 

[Shadenuat]

PoE subversion is piss poor corporate shit where they hate what they subvert but can't make anything else because they expected go get money from traditional d&d. It's dishonest game development and dishonest writing.

And yes PKM is just banalo fantasy with some parts which make you laugh and some make you wtf, but at least the ladder it tries to climb is short enough that it doesn't crash into goo when writers stumble and fall.
it is also more than enough for party building & kill and loot gameplay. the key in game writing is to not overextend.

which is why I am also slightly wary of writing in Wrath, because there's nothing that makes writers more retarded than fall into grimdork and belif that grimdork/edgy is intelligent writing.

 

[MarxistPlato]

But the most important question - if Kingmaker is written better than our beloved creation of Josh Sawyer, then is it written better than Skyrim by our lord and saviour Todd Howard? A truly hard question it is.

 

[pomenitul]

PoE subversion is piss poor corporate shit where they hate what they subvert but can't make anything else because they expected go get money from traditional d&d. It's dishonest game development and dishonest writing.

So you say, but I found that tension quite interesting. The loss of belief that is explicitly inscribed in the game's narrative is also presumably that of its veteran developers, and this speaks to my own relationship with CRPGs over the past couple of decades. PF:K had a more conservative approach, taking continued enthusiasm towards the genre for granted, which is perfectly fine, I just didn't get as much out of it.

 

[Shadenuat]

I mean lets have kotlet separate from muh

The highest loss of belief or whatever you experience with Durance, whish is just a story he tells you and can be considered almost an experience within experience. Doesit make Poe1 better written than PKM? because fuck no, I'd say PKM plot is actually better structured and solid than that 3 people drag game into different direction in Poe1. is Durance probably better written than any companion in PKM? solid Yes, but it doesn't save Poe narrative or its world building as a whole game.

 

[Desiderius]

As apologies for atheism go Deadfire may be the most heartfelt one I’ve read and the Woedica strawman they added certainly beats Pullman’s for instance, but at the end of the day I think Sawyer senses he’s playing an inexplicably losing hand, hence the wistfulness that’s a tough fit for an adventure.

I suppose you’d run into similar problems trying to make Silmarillion games even with the help of an infinitely better theology. The first truly tragic rpg has yet to be made. P:K fits better with the inherently comic nature of the genre.

 

[Xamenos]

Who is Count Ranalc? Is he even in the CRPG adaption or did I just miss that part?

Spoiler

No. they cut him out and for very good reason. In the original AP he's an Eldest with whom Nyrissa had a relationship in ancient times. This was the reason for her punishment. There was no Apology or a Lantern King plot. As LannTheStupid said, there's an older post of mine listing the differences between the AP and the CRPG like this one.

Then for God's sakes man put it in your sig so the lazy bastards amongst us can find it

There you go, you lazy bastard. Let it not be said I never did anything for you lot.

 

[Desiderius]

It baffles me that people praise Kingmaker and its cutesy, cartoonish writing. I know that Avellone hasn't written an RPG for the past 9 years but how low can your standards get?

You’re outing yourself as a game journalist here. Nobody who has played even half the game has that take.

 

[Grunker]

Who is Count Ranalc? Is he even in the CRPG adaption or did I just miss that part?

Spoiler

No. they cut him out and for very good reason. In the original AP he's an Eldest with whom Nyrissa had a relationship in ancient times. This was the reason for her punishment. There was no Apology or a Lantern King plot. As LannTheStupid said, there's an older post of mine listing the differences between the AP and the CRPG like this one.

Then for God's sakes man put it in your sig so the lazy bastards amongst us can find it

There you go, you lazy bastard. Let it not be said I never did anything for you lot.

gotta love this place

 

[Grunker]

I even ran Kingmaker and couldn't remember half of that stuff lol. What I do remember is the game being way, way better about representing the fey threat. That felt underdeveloped in the adventure path

 

[pomenitul]

P:K fits better with the inherently comic nature of the genre.

That's fair, and there is no question that the PoEs don't live up to their philosophical premise, but my expectations are no doubt lower than most Codexers' when it comes to CRPGs. If they were works of literature, I'd laugh at whoever deems them anything more than mediocre efforts at best, but the fact that the series simply tries to address such issues is good enough for me in this particular context. So while your praise of PF:K's comparative lack of ambition is legitimate, while there is nothing wrong with Owlcat's decision to play it safe by sticking to the genre's tried-and-true strengths, I just happen to find that kind of straightforward classicism a bit boring at the moment.