Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Prime Junta]

Probably shouldn't link to a level 4 spell as an example of a spell to use in order to kill high level enemies when at low level yourself.

Eldritch Aim. Inspiring Radiance. Blessing. Zealous/Aspirant's Focus.

Also, use one-handed weapons with no shield. Use rapiers or spears. Use items that stack accuracy directly or through Perception. Coordinating or Marking weapons. Stalker's Link. And so on. There are tons of ways to stack Accuracy in the game.

 

[Sannom]

So what is the big mistake? I understood it to mean pushing on despite low level, likely constantly going through loading screens to go back up top to rest.

The big mistake is to push through despite overwhelming odds of being defeated. Before the game came out, Josh made it clear that each level of the Infinite Path didn't give enough experience to enable one to defeat the next.

I really doubt they'll use crowd funding the second time. From what I've read in Josh's interviews, I think he attributes much of the game's downsides to having to spend resources to cover promises he made to backers in the KS campaign, and would like to have more freedom with PoE2's design.

Oh they will use crowdfunding the second time. Obsidian has stakes in Fig now, they're going to use PoE as a way of boosting that thing.

As for your second point, Obsidian will probably be smarter now as to what kind of reward to offer their backers.

There's a Larian Ireland now too.

Fucking tax evaders! Soon their HQ will be moved there, you just wait!

 

[Sizzle]

I can't think of a downside to using Kickstarter (Fig is another matter, even though they'll most probably use that) for PoE 2.

It'll probably work similarly to the KS campaign of D:OS 2 - extra funds for the game they will definitely make regardless of how much money they make off of it (the funding goal will probably be reasonable, too), with the added benefit of raising awareness for the game.

Odds are that they started mucking about with new storyline and design ideas as soon as PoE 1 was out, so they can even put in all the stretch goals that they actually want there to be in the sequel, instead of PoE 1's KS campaign, where it was obvious they were pitching ideas willy-nilly, with no clue how they would fit in with the finished product.

 

[Roguey]

As I said (and you ignored), the market today is many times bigger. Starcraft was the huge, record-breaking blockbuster of 1998 and sold "only" 1.5M in the first year.
In comparison, Diablo III sold 3.5M in the first 24 hours and then 12M in the first year, just on PC.

We have a thread about this http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...atalism-can-hardcore-rpgs-sell-better.106182/

None of the Kickstarter-funded western RPGs have sold anything close to modern Blizzard numbers. Nor have Blackguards, AoD, or Underrail. New Torment won't either (though I predict it'll sell close to a million or more within a year). It doesn't seem likely to me that the potential audience for these games is more than a few million at most, and they're unlikely to buy one all at once. Bastion was an action RPG indie darling but it still took years to sell 3 million, with only around 500,000 during its first (how about that Pillars sold better than Bastion during its first year).

 

[felipepepe]

You're missing the point - PoE is RTwP, has Obsidian as dev (who got quite a rep for New Vegas), house names like MCA, Tim Cain and Sawyer, is a spiritual successor to the "legendary IE games" AND has all this "players are dumb, let's not frustrate them" philosophy behind it... it had the best cards in hand and was clearly aimed at a broader audience.

You know, the audience thats buys 3M Nu-XCOM copies on PC, 2M Cities: Skylines copies in less than a year... those are niche games that made it big. They show the market is much bigger today. Skylines already sold more than any SimCity game, FFS. It's what Obsidian wanted. Yet PoE still sold way less than D:OS - a TB game from a company & series few had ever heard about with a "confusing" 100% anti-Sawyer character system and that got only 1/4 of what PoE raised on Kickstarter.

So Sawyer's patronizing and dull design falls flat. His ultra-accessible game couldn't match the numbers BG had decades ago on a much smaller market, couldn't break into the mainstream market of today, and failed even to top D:OS - a game interested in being fun instead of "not-frustrating". Any "its what players want" argument from him is pure denial.

And now there he is, adding a story mode to an already stupid easy game. Do that, while XCOM 2 surpasses you in a week and the Souls series sells millions. Clearly the problem here is that PoE wasn't easy enough already.

 

[Infinitron]

Sorry felipepepe but you're clearly getting butthurt now. I remember last year I had a PM conversation with you and VD where you both believed PoE wouldn't get any GOTY awards. It ended up getting a bunch of them.

BTW, how possible is it to build a bad/broken character in D:OS?

 

[Duraframe300]

You know, the audience thats buys 3M Nu-XCOM copies on PC, 2M Cities: Skylines copies in less than a year... those are niche games that made it big. .

 

[Roguey]

You're missing the point - PoE is RTwP, has Obsidian as dev (who got quite a rep for New Vegas), house names like MCA, Tim Cain and Sawyer, is a spiritual successor to the "legendary IE games" AND has all this "players are dumb, let's not frustrate them" philosophy behind it... it had the best cards in hand and was clearly aimed at a broader audience.

You know, the audience thats buys 3M Nu-XCOM copies on PC, 2M Cities: Skylines copies in less than a year... those are niche games that made it big. They show the market is much bigger today. Skylines already sold more than any SimCity game, FFS. It's what Obsidian wanted. Yet PoE still sold way less than D:OS - a TB game from a company & series few had ever heard about with a "confusing" 100% anti-Sawyer character system and that got only 1/4 of what PoE raised on Kickstarter.

So Sawyer's patronizing and dull design falls flat. His ultra-accessible game couldn't match the numbers BG had decades ago on a much smaller market, couldn't break into the mainstream market of today, and failed even to top D:OS - a game interested in being fun instead of "not-frustrating". Any "its what players want" argument from him is pure denial.

Sawyer always stated that Pillars was being made for fans of the IE games, especially the ones who were bad at playing them (like Adam Brennecke who pitched the very concept). There was no "We want the Dragon Age: Origins market" though I'm sure quite a few of those jumped on board.

Pilllars has a respectable 88% player satisfaction score on Steam. D:OS classic has 91%, the EE also has 88%. All the metacritic nonsense is comparable. Most of the people who play it end up liking it, the people who hate it end up really hating it. You're acting as if it's a failure because it didn't meet some lofty criterion Obsidian never publicly stated as a goal (these are the guys who thought they had a 50/50 chance of barely getting funding and were completely taken off guard by how quickly they received that amount).

 

[felipepepe]

Sorry felipepepe but you're clearly getting butthurt now. I remember last year I had a PM conversation with you and VD where you both believed PoE wouldn't get any GOTY awards. It ended up getting a bunch of them.

So? The dumb design struck a chord with journos, what can I say. They made a game with AAA design sensibilities and Kickstarter sales numbers, bravo.

BTW, how possible is it to build a bad/broken character in D:OS?

Quite possible. Utility & combat stuff aren't split, so someone focused on damage stuff will be way better than someone grabbing skills like teleport, invisibility and the likes. You have two characters to balance that, but my friends restarted the game once because one of their characters was too weak next to the other. So they re-rolled, finished the game & loved it.

You're acting as if it's a failure because it didn't meet some lofty criterion Obsidian never publicly stated as a goal (these are the guys who thought they had a 50/50 chance of barely getting funding and were completely taken off guard by how quickly they received that amount).

What I'm saying is that Sawyer's claims that people want/need his patronizing design is bullshit. If it was true, then people would be much more satisfied with PoE than with "frustrating" games like D:OS, XCOM and Dark Souls - all games which are selling more.

 

[Infinitron]

I think skill-based systems are safer to make "trappy" than attribute systems. It doesn't take a genius to know you'll want to raise the number next to the word "Sword" to be able to defend yourself with a sword, but things like "Strength", "Resolve", etc, are more nebulous, and seem to describe a character's general disposition. That's where the player will want to roleplay himself - "I'm a weak guy, but I'll raise my Sword skill high and take some additional abilities to represent the fact that I'm still handy with a blade despite that".

 

[Roguey]

They made a game with AAA design sensibilities and Kickstarter sales numbers, bravo.

Nah, that's Harebrained Schemes.

What I'm saying is that Sawyer's claims that people want/need his patronizing design is bullshit. If it was true, then people would be much more satisfied with PoE than with "frustrating" games like D:OS, XCOM and Dark Souls - all games which are selling more.

D:OS: Well-done co-op (huge draw), pretty good 3D graphics with a camera that can be rotated (for some reason a lot of people really like this)

XCOM: Pretty sure there are a million posts about why this is extremely dumbed down compared to its extremely chaotic predecessor. It also has multiplayer (huge draw), and pretty good 3D graphics with a camera that can be rotated (for some reason a lot of people really like this)

Dark Souls: Action game, requires a different set of skills that are more easily understood/brute forced. Also that stuff about multiplayer and 3D graphics.

 

[Infinitron]

It's likely that D:OS was an outlier IMO, I'm waiting to see how the sequel performs.

But felipe does inadvertently make a point I've made since the very beginning - players rarely care about "design"/systems, one way or the other. Sawyer could have phoned in some grognardy system and it wouldn't have changed much (and it wouldn't have magically made the game have better encounter design either), and I doubt he's ignorant of that. I believe he designed the system this way primarily because it's what he likes and what he thinks RPG systems should be like.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Additionally, Josh hates D&D's prestige classes because they require you to plan out your entire build from level 1 and if you make a mistake while leveling, welp goodbye build.

Of course, he hates something for the most retarded reasons.

What a horrible thing, you intend to build a character a certain way to get some bonuses, but if you you are retarded and are unable to push the correct buttons you fail. My god, plz remove, and in fact, let's also remove half of the system while we're at it. What if you click on constitution when you want to click on strength??? Well, goodbye build then, that's what!

That's not the point.

The point is that prestige classes are the character-building equivalent of a colouring book. They're extremely restrictively defined by whoever wrote them up. There's no player agency or creativity involved: instead, all you have to do is meticulously colour inside the lines.

They reward good obedient players who do as the designer says, instead of creative players who want to find cool things to do with the building blocks inside the game.

Doesn't sound like that's his problem, though. Even less so if you consider Sawyer has epileptic fits if people are not playing "how they're supposed to".

 

[AwesomeButton]

(these are the guys who thought they had a 50/50 chance of barely getting funding and were completely taken off guard by how quickly they received that amount).

Everyone says that, Roguey. Of course they would make compliments to their fans, it's a way of saying "thank you" and at the same time daring them to up their pledges.

Quite possible.

I can testify to that.

What I'm saying is that Sawyer's claims that people want/need his patronizing design is bullshit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I didn't follow the KS campaign, but I take it that Sawyer took the posture of "Everyone so far has failed to make a good DnD implementation to PC, but with my experience of PnP, PC RPG, the freedom to design my own system, and supreme design skills, I know what everyone has been missing". If that's the claim he had been making, then he, unsurprisingly, failed at it with the first attempt - PoE - but will surely improve on his work with PoE 2. From his post-August interviews, I read that he is in fact one of his own biggest critics, he is aware of the weak spots of PoE, and I'm happy to notice that those weak spots he has mentioned mostly coincide with my own opinion.

D:OS: Well-done co-op (huge draw), pretty good 3D graphics with a camera that can be rotated (for some reason a lot of people really like this)

You aren't claiming the co-op and rotating camera were the two features that made the difference?

 

[Roguey]

Everyone says that, Roguey. Of course they would make compliments to their fans, it's a way of saying "thank you" and at the same time daring them to up their pledges.

They had no stretch goals planned and had to scramble to come up with something.

You aren't claiming the co-op and rotating camera were the two features that made the difference?

It also has mechanics that look good in a stream.

 

[Shevek]

And it's completely irrelevant in deciding whether a system is good or not. In fact, if you make mistakes in leveling up for a prestige class then maybe you shouldn't play games at all. Or maybe Obsidian is incapable or providing a good UI so that people can't make those mistakes?
Nah, must be the system.

Ah yes, people hated the game because they didn't play it as intended... How refreshing.

Don't underestimate Infinitron's ability to know much better than you why you don't like a game. As a rule of thumb, it's never the game, it's always you.

Dude, no offense, but you are a moron. I enjoy character building in RPGs but all people who play rpgs shouldnt be forced to look at all the prereqs to plot out your character from 1st to last level. That is not gaming. That is metagaming. To state that if you do not metagame then you shouldnt play rpgs is fucking stupid. Plain and simple.

 

[Sannom]

Doesn't sound like that's his problem, though. Even less so if you consider Sawyer has epileptic fits if people are not playing "how they're supposed to".

When has Sawyer had an "epileptic fit" because people didn't play like they were supposed to? Until you can provide proof, I'm calling you a liar.

And I am, of course, taking you at your literal word. So I will need a video of Sawyer having a seizure.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Dude, no offense, but you are a moron. I enjoy character building in RPGs but all people who play rpgs shouldnt be forced to look at all the prereqs to plot out your character from 1st to last level. That is not gaming. That is metagaming. To state that if you do not metagame then you shouldnt play rpgs is fucking stupid. Plain and simple.

What? Reading the manual or reading the requirements for a prestige class is metagaming now? Well, when you thought you heard the most retarded thing here pops another one to prove your wrong. I suppose the best way to play is just to click the awesome button. No metagaming there.

Also nobody forces you. If you intend to build for that prestige class it kinda makes sense to pay attention, doesn't it?
It also seems you lack the reading comprehension to understand that at least according to Roguey, Sawyer's problem with them is that the players make mistakes because of short attention spans. I suspect you might be part of that target audience.

And this:

They're extremely restrictively defined by whoever wrote them up. There's no player agency or creativity involved: instead, all you have to do is meticulously colour inside the lines.

They reward good obedient players who do as the designer says, instead of creative players who want to find cool things to do with the building blocks inside the game.

Is just bullshit. They are just optional ways to build your character. You don't HAVE to build for them, that's what optional means. felipepepe gave them as an example of extra options which is what they are. They don't limit more than anything else in the system, unless you want to say that pumping up swords to fight better with swords is "coloring inside the lines".

 

[Prime Junta]

They're extremely restrictively defined by whoever wrote them up. There's no player agency or creativity involved: instead, all you have to do is meticulously colour inside the lines.

They reward good obedient players who do as the designer says, instead of creative players who want to find cool things to do with the building blocks inside the game.

Is just bullshit. They are just optional ways to build your character. You don't HAVE to build for them, that's what optional means. felipepepe gave them as an example of extra options which is what they are. They don't limit more than anything else in the system, unless you want to say that pumping up swords to fight better with swords is "coloring inside the lines".

They are optional but prescribed ways to build your character. Your input lies in simply picking which prestige class you want to be, noting down the requirements, and following them to the letter, like a good little clerk working on the quarterly accounts his boss gave him to finish up.

That's the diametrical opposite of a system which lets you pump up swords and combine that with pumping up dual-wielding, single-handed-wielding, sword-and-shield, offensive, defensive, armoured, unarmoured, sustained damage or spike damage, and so on and so forth.

The former system gives you an outline where you just have to colour inside the lines. The latter one gives you building-blocks you can combine to create a range of different builds with different strengths and weakness and a different gameplay experience.

Frankly I think it's a bit strange that this even needs pointing out, it's so bloody obvious. Didn't you ever play with Legos or a Meccano set as a kid, or did you only build scale model aircraft? Same difference.

 

[FeelTheRads]

How the hell do those prestige classes stop you from doing this

That's the diametrical opposite of a system which lets you pump up swords and combine that with pumping up dual-wielding, single-handed-wielding, sword-and-shield, offensive, defensive, armoured, unarmoured, sustained damage or spike damage, and so on and so forth.

They're in addition to that, not instead of.
They will stop you from picking a little bit out of everything, I guess, but that's also what classes do. It's class-based system after all.

And nobody is prescribing them. It's your choice if you want to do them for the extra advantages they provide. They're a different way of multiclassing, not the ultimate goal of the game. I certainly don't see how this even needs pointing out.

 

[felipepepe]

I would agree with Prime Junta IF PoE was classless and I could place the "blocks" in anyway I want. It isn't, so your point is moot.

If I want to give a class-specific skill like Barbarian Rage to a wizard in D&D, I just multi-class it. Or take a weird prestige class. If I want to do that in PoE, I simply can't.

 

[Prime Junta]

How the hell do those prestige classes stop you from doing this

That's the diametrical opposite of a system which lets you pump up swords and combine that with pumping up dual-wielding, single-handed-wielding, sword-and-shield, offensive, defensive, armoured, unarmoured, sustained damage or spike damage, and so on and so forth.

Because most of the prescribe exactly the feats you need to take. There isn't any room left for choice. Few games have level caps high enough that you can max out a prestige class if you don't get it as early as it's possible, or close to it. You can't make a Duelist built around Power Attack, or a Raging Berserker built around dual-wielding, because you can't spare the feats.

The only reason the system works at all is that the menu of options is longer than a Chinese restaurant's. But there's still no player creativity or agency in it at all, all you do is pore over the menu, pick the dish you want, and then colour inside the lines until you get it.

 

[Fairfax]

I think felipepe is right. PoE had all the cards and all the hype they needed to be a hit, and it wasn't. It should've been at least more successful than D:OS.
However, to be fair, even though Sawyer was the wrong project director, we now know some of the details, and it wasn't so simple. Rich Taylor was on AW, Brian Heins with the other project. It's not like they had another choice other than taking a huge risk with someone who'd never done it before. Feargus said he offered MCA a PS:T spiritual successor on a platter and he didn't want it. Now that could've been a bigger hit than BG. PoE with this team, this design philosophy and this budget is as good as it could've been: good in some aspects, bad in others. Mediocre overall.

 

[Prime Junta]

I would agree with Prime Junta IF PoE was classless and I could place the "blocks" in anyway I want. It isn't, so your point is moot.

If I want to give a class-specific skill like Barbarian Rage to a wizard in D&D, I just multi-class it. Or take a weird prestige class. If I want to do that in PoE, I simply can't.

False dichotomy. Also, shifting the goalposts. That's two fallacies in two sentences, pretty good there.

You were claiming that BG1's system allows for more variety than Pillars' because of dual and multiclassing. That's just not true: while you can't make every class do anything (which would defeat the purpose of a class-based system), Pillars' class system allows for lots of different builds within classes, which adds up to more choice. What's more, this choice is due to player creativity rather than picking from a predefined menu.

(Oh, and, you picked a bit of an unfortunate example as Outlander's Frenzy is, in fact, available to any class, even wizards. Come to think of it, you could make a pretty badass gish build around that and some self-buffs...)

 

[Excidium II]

Isn't PoE multiclassing just getting 1 (one) significantly weaker ability from each class?