Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Fairfax]

Pillars' class system allows for lots of different builds within classes, which adds up to more choice.

Not true for most of the classes, specially now. Several builds are no longer viable due to Sawyer's balance patches, and the Fighter as a whole became pointless.

 

[Prime Junta]

There isn't any multiclassing. There are some cross-class talents. Personally I find them aesthetically displeasing and don't use them; I would rather have true multiclassing (and I believe they want to do that for Pillars 2).

However, some clever guys on the Obsidian forums have made some seriously interesting builds around these cross-class talents, combining them with each other and class abilities to great effect.

 

[Excidium II]

Pillars' class system allows for lots of different builds within classes, which adds up to more choice.

Not true for most of the classes, specially now. Several builds are no longer viable due to Sawyer's balance patches, and the Fighter as a whole became pointless.

Fighter is pointless so that means Paladin is viable now?

 

[Prime Junta]

Pillars' class system allows for lots of different builds within classes, which adds up to more choice.

Not true for most of the classes, specially now. Several builds are no longer viable due to Sawyer's balance patches, and the Fighter as a whole became pointless.

Nonsense.

Edit: every time something gets nerfed though the forums are full of butthurt though. Apparently if something isn't blatantly OP it's "pointless." Then a little while later someone finds a cool way to build around the new balance, and it becomes the greatest thing again. Remember when wizards were pointless? Now they're generally agreed to be the most powerful class in the game if played right -- yet nothing much changed, players just figured out how to play the damn things.

 

[Fairfax]

Pillars' class system allows for lots of different builds within classes, which adds up to more choice.

Not true for most of the classes, specially now. Several builds are no longer viable due to Sawyer's balance patches, and the Fighter as a whole became pointless.

Fighter is pointless so that means Paladin is viable now?

Yes, Paladin is by far the best only worthwhile tank now. Pre-3.0, mind you. Don't know how much that will change.

 

[Roguey]

PoE had all the cards and all the hype they needed to be a hit, and it wasn't.

Define hit.

even though Sawyer was the wrong project director

Only ~12% of players believe this.

 

[felipepepe]

You were claiming that BG1's system allows for more variety than Pillars' because of dual and multiclassing. That's just not true: while you can't make every class do anything (which would defeat the purpose of a class-based system), Pillars' class system allows for lots of different builds within classes, which adds up to more choice. What's more, this choice is due to player creativity rather than picking from a predefined menu.

Wrong again - BG allows you to roll a Fighter/Thief/Wizard that "does everything" but way worse than a pure class character. That's interesting character building.

BG's "less choices" are way more significant: If I dual-class my Fighter into a Fighter/Cleric, I'm completelty changing how he plays - now he has spells, can turn undead, can't use blades, can equip different class-restricted items, get a different stronghold quest, etc... PoE's "more choices" are all stuff like "what should Holy Radiance do?" or "do I get +10 reflex or +10 deflection?". Boring as hell, and you're still just picking from a menu bro.

 

[FeelTheRads]

How the hell do those prestige classes stop you from doing this

That's the diametrical opposite of a system which lets you pump up swords and combine that with pumping up dual-wielding, single-handed-wielding, sword-and-shield, offensive, defensive, armoured, unarmoured, sustained damage or spike damage, and so on and so forth.

Because most of the prescribe exactly the feats you need to take. There isn't any room left for choice. Few games have level caps high enough that you can max out a prestige class if you don't get it as early as it's possible, or close to it. You can't make a Duelist built around Power Attack, or a Raging Berserker built around dual-wielding, because you can't spare the feats.

The only reason the system works at all is that the menu of options is longer than a Chinese restaurant's. But there's still no player creativity or agency in it at all, all you do is pore over the menu, pick the dish you want, and then colour inside the lines until you get it.

Do you also think that stat requirements for certain abilities limits your options? Like say, needing 18 Intelligence for 9th level spells? Because that's exactly the same thing for prestige classes. It's your choice to give up on something else to get those 9th level spells as it is your choice to give up something else to get that prestige class and the bonuses associated with it.
You can't mix and match everything, but again, that's what a class system does.

PoE system is a dumb "i wannabe classless but here's classes anyway just because" that gives the illusion of choice by giving a bit of everything without anything really making a big difference in the end.

 

[Prime Junta]

Yes, Paladin is by far the best only worthwhile tank now. Pre-3.0, mind you. Don't know how much that will change.

Ah, that's your problem right there.

Tanks are kind of pointless since 2.0 and the AI changes. In 1.0 you could cruise through the game by building up a fighter as a tank, parking him in the front, and scraping off the goons that swarmed him with your damagers. That no longer works, which does make that kind of fighter... not quite pointless, but no longer the <yawn> win button that it used to be.

I never really experienced that as I got bored of tank-and-spank early on and started building my fighters for damage. Since 2.0 they strike a really sweet balance between damage and durability. Yes, a rogue or ranger will out-damage them, and yes a defensively-built paladin will out-tank them, but nothing else can put out as much damage while being clobbered as an offensively-skewed fighter.

Want to replicate the "IE feel" of combat? Take two fighters and a paladin, give the paladin Zealous Charge, pick a back row to taste -- a wizard, priest, and ranger works great, for example -- and go to town. You'll be mobile, robust, able to focus or split your damage output at will, and your frontline will be low-maintenance so you can concentrate on the casters.

 

[Fairfax]

Yes, Paladin is by far the best only worthwhile tank now. Pre-3.0, mind you. Don't know how much that will change.

Ah, that's your problem right there.

Tanks are kind of pointless since 2.0 and the AI changes. In 1.0 you could cruise through the game by building up a fighter as a tank, parking him in the front, and scraping off the goons that swarmed him with your damagers. That no longer works, which does make that kind of fighter... not quite pointless, but no longer the <yawn> win button that it used to be.

I never really experienced that as I got bored of tank-and-spank early on and started building my fighters for damage. Since 2.0 they strike a really sweet balance between damage and durability. Yes, a rogue or ranger will out-damage them, and yes a defensively-built paladin will out-tank them, but nothing else can put out as much damage while being clobbered as an offensively-skewed fighter.

Want to replicate the "IE feel" of combat? Take two fighters and a paladin, give the paladin Zealous Charge, pick a back row to taste -- a wizard, priest, and ranger works great, for example -- and go to town. You'll be mobile, robust, able to focus or split your damage output at will, and your frontline will be low-maintenance so you can concentrate on the casters.

Paladin is better as a tank, does more damage and has support skills. Why would anyone pick a Fighter? It also has the most boring gameplay and not one distinctive feature.

PoE had all the cards and all the hype they needed to be a hit, and it wasn't.

Define hit.

even though Sawyer was the wrong project director

Only ~12% of players believe this.

Hit depends on the context. In this case, I'd say at least close to BG's numbers within a year.

 

[Infinitron]

Like say, needing 18 Intelligence for 9th level spells?

Roguey

 

[prodigydancer]

AD&D was undoubtedly more restrictive than PoE. And to be honest prestige classes weren't something especially restrictive within the AD&D paradigm. A pure Mage wasn't able to wear any armor except robes, couldn't get weapon specialization and had extremely narrow selection of weapons proficiencies available. Being a pure 2Ed Mage means you're only good at casting spells and that's what you'll always be. I think this counts as coloring inside the lines. It didn't feel restrictive in the IE games because the spell selection was huge, but the class progression was completely on rails and we need to acknowledge this fact. Pure Thief was just as restricted and less versatile to boot. Missed with Backstab? You're useless, ha ha!

On the other hand, PoE isn't a true sandbox either. Pope Amole II explored the character system in depth and his conclusion was that if you were building for maximum efficiency your actual options with most classes were very limited. A powergaming build in PoE isn't really different from a powergaming build in any other game - you plan it "from day one" and follow your plan to the letter. Details change from patch to patch because balancing affects the meta in a way that would feel more appropriate in an MMO game. But there's always something that trump everything else (e.g. in 2.0 for damage dealers it was attack speed IIRC).

Finally, I disagree that D:OS character system is necessarily more fun even if it's the least restrictive. Under current EE meta at lower levels you want to put one point in every magic school and use whatever CC skill or item that is off cooldown. High risk builds are suboptimal because higher risk doesn't translate into higher reward. Larian's focus on cooldowns combined with HP being the only semi-limited resource means that as long as you have enough CC spells in your repertoire you don't have any resource limits at all. At higher levels, of course, you simply outlevel the content and get access to OP gear so the combat devolves into roflstomping everything except maybe a few fights.

 

[Prime Junta]

Wrong again - BG allows you to roll a Fighter/Thief/Wizard that "does everything" but way worse than a pure class character. That's interesting character building.

So, if you find one build in BG1 that's not possible in Pillars, that means that BG1 has more choice than Pillars? Even if there are a half-dozen or more viable builds in Pillars that aren't possible in BG1?

And you consider picking a choice from a menu and then going "click" on level-up interesting character-building? Dunno about that, but your preferences certainly are... interesting.

BG's "less choices" are way more significant: If I dual-class my Fighter into a Fighter/Cleric, I'm completelty changing how he plays - now he has spells, can turn undead, can't use blades, can equip different class-restricted items, get a different stronghold quest, etc...

Nice, adding "equivocation" to your fallacies. We were comparing BG1 and Pillars, now you're comparing BG2 and Pillars. BG1 doesn't have any strongholds, remember?

PoE's "more choices" are all stuff like "what should Holy Radiance do?" or "do I get +10 reflex or +10 deflection?". Boring as hell, and you're still just picking from a menu bro.

You really don't understand how Pillars' class system works. I guess I'll have to lay it out for you then.

It's all in the talents and abilities, the way you combine them with each other and various item abilities. If you consider each talent, ability, or item property in isolation, then yes they are uninteresting.

This change completely when you start looking at how they synergise with each other, either for a single character, or, even more so, for the entire party. For example, there's a Ranger ability that makes your pet do a lot more damage to enemies affected by a DoT effect. To make the most of that, you'll need to find ways to have enemies always have a DoT effect (ideally). Now, the ranger has a handy per-encounter ability -- Wounding Shot -- that does just that, but that's just the start. You'll start looking for weapons which apply DoT effects (look up Persistence). You might want a rogue in your party with the Deep Wounds ability, give him a fast-shooting weapon, and use him to target the enemy the ranger's pet is attacking. Then you'll notice that hey, there's this level 2 wizard spell called Combusting Wounds which applies extra damage every time a enemy is hit... and notice that that works with DoT effects. And hey hey, there's this ring which gives you 2/rest Combusting Wounds.

So now you've got you ranger with the ring and Persistence teaming up with your rogue with Deep Wounds and a wizard with Combusting Wounds teaming up. All those individual apparently unimpressive abilities -- small DoT effect from Persistence, another small DoT effect from Deep Wounds, small extra damage every time an enemy gets hit, pet doing 50% extra damage on enemies suffering from DoT -- build up on each other to create a party which fucking melts mobs.

And that's just one example I made up from my head right now. There are tons of ways to combine abilities like that to great effect. They radically change the way you play the game: you're looking for different properties in items, different talents in your party members, different spells from your casters, and moment-to-moment you're targeting and using your abilities differently. It's hugely dynamic and engaging, and it's all based on you figuring out how the system works and finding creative ways to combine things, rather than picking something when you start and continuing on rails.

(In before the inevitable "but it's too eeeeeasy for any of that to matter" dodge, which ain't true either, just crank it up to Path of the Damned.)

 

[Sannom]

Isn't PoE multiclassing just getting 1 (one) significantly weaker ability from each class?

Pretty much, but it's not equal between classes. The one for wizards give a weak version of a lvl 1 spell, the one for rogues gives a weaker version of sneak attack.

Feargus said he offered MCA a PS:T spiritual successor on a platter and he didn't want it.

Now when was that said?

And for reference, I do not doubt your word, I'm actually curious.

Do you also think that stat requirements for certain abilities limits your options? Like say, needing 18 Intelligence for 9th level spells?

I don't know about PrimeJunta, but I'm pretty sure that's what Sawyer believes.

On the other hand, PoE isn't a true sandbox either. Pope Amole II explored the character system in depth and his conclusion was that if you were building for maximum efficiency your actual options with most classes were very limited. A powergaming build in PoE isn't really different from a powergaming build in any other game - you plan it "from day one" and follow your plan to the letter. Details change from patch to patch because balancing affects the meta in a way that would feel more appropriate in an MMO game. But there's always something that trump everything else (e.g. in 2.0 for damage dealers it was attack speed IIRC).

But isn't the argument that PoE has a lot of more or less viable different builds and concepts for each class (including the max-efficiency one) whereas in D&D there is only the right build and then the more efficient right build?

 

[Prime Junta]

Paladin is better as a tank, does more damage and has support skills. Why would anyone pick a Fighter?

Um... because you might want a low-micro character that can hold a position and at the same time put out a lot of damage consistently?

No other class in the game does that nearly as well.

It also has the most boring gameplay and not one distinctive feature.

Funny, that, as it's not true for Pillars fighters (they have several distinctive features, for example no other class can be used to shield their comrades, to pick one at random), but it is true of AD&D fighters. After all, all an AD&D fighter can do is move, attack, and use a more restricted range of magic items than any other class. They're fun to play though because they do just that better than any other class.

 

[Roguey]

Like say, needing 18 Intelligence for 9th level spells?

Roguey

Fun fact: none of the IE games implemented this rule even though it's listed in the back of the manual.

 

[Shevek]

Also nobody forces you. If you intend to build for that prestige class it kinda makes sense to pay attention, doesn't it?
It also seems you lack the reading comprehension to understand that at least according to Roguey, Sawyer's problem with them is that the players make mistakes because of short attention spans. I suspect you might be part of that target audience.

Having played roleplaying games for a bit, I have gotten to the point where I can sit there, look at all the incredibly obscure and non sensical feat or skill requirements for a given advancement option, plot out all the different possibilities and calculate which will give me that uber 2000 damage charging power attack. Its really easy but COMPLETELY unsatisfying. I just don't want to do that anymore. I want to make a character that fits a roleplaying type yet remains effective. I want to make the dashing rogue that feels like a dashing rogue. I want to make the hulking brute. I don't want to be told that I need to have five ranks in fucking "Spot" to be a freaking War Priest or some such nonsense.

Sawyer got it right. This is where RPGs are moving in general and for good reason. 5E, easily the best DnD edition, gets rid of most of these stupid prereqs (prestige classes are baked into the classes like kits, feats have no prereqs/chains) and keeps only some moderate multiclassing stat prereqs.

 

[Prime Junta]

Do you also think that stat requirements for certain abilities limits your options? Like say, needing 18 Intelligence for 9th level spells? Because that's exactly the same thing for prestige classes.

It's 19 for 9th level spells (in D&D3; AD&D doesn't have prestige classes.)

Duh, of course restrictions restrict your options. That's why they're called restrictions. You can't have any game system without restrictions, that's what they're made of.

That's neither here nor there though: you're just rephrasing the same idiocy you spouted earlier: comparing an individual feature to a predefined template combining lots of features. It's not the same thing.

It's your choice to give up on something else to get those 9th level spells as it is your choice to give up something else to get that prestige class and the bonuses associated with it.
You can't mix and match everything, but again, that's what a class system does.

But there's the rub: it's not your choice, it's the choice of whoever set the prestige class up so that you can't reach 19 intelligence for 9th level spells (if that's the way it was set up).

PoE system is a dumb "i wannabe classless but here's classes anyway just because" that gives the illusion of choice by giving a bit of everything without anything really making a big difference in the end.

Again, lots of you keep saying this but it's just not true. You can build characters within classes lots of different ways. Look for Boeroer's class builds here, for example. There are lots of really out-there builds there, all of which are not only viable but extremely powerful.

 

[Fairfax]

Feargus said he offered MCA a PS:T spiritual successor on a platter and he didn't want it.

Now when was that said?

And for reference, I do not doubt your word, I'm actually curious.

I lost the bookmark when my HDD went to shit, but it was an interview with Feargus and IIRC the question was about how PoE came to be. MCA was offered a spiritual successor to PS:T when they couldn't get the license, but ultimately he said he didn't want to go through another "death march" like PS:T's development.
I'll try to find it again later.

Paladin is better as a tank, does more damage and has support skills. Why would anyone pick a Fighter?

Um... because you might want a low-micro character that can hold a position and at the same time put out a lot of damage consistently?

No other class in the game does that nearly as well.

It also has the most boring gameplay and not one distinctive feature.

Funny, that, as it's not true for Pillars fighters (they have several distinctive features, for example no other class can be used to shield their comrades, to pick one at random), but it is true of AD&D fighters. After all, all an AD&D fighter can do is move, attack, and use a more restricted range of magic items than any other class. They're fun to play though because they do just that better than any other class.

That's the only thing going for it: almost zero management in combat. If that's what you like, might as well turn Story Mode on. It's not a good damage dealer and the Paladin and Monk are better at holding a position.

 

[Infinitron]

Were prestige classes originally meant to be secret? Like, you happen to build your character in a certain way and then your DM announces "Congratulations, you qualify for this prestige class."

 

[Prime Junta]

Were prestige classes originally meant to be secret? Like, you happen to build your character in a certain way and then your DM announces "Congratulations, you qualify for this prestige class."

Not that I heard. I just checked the D&D3.0 DMG which introduced them, and it certainly didn't say so.

It would also be hellishly difficult as the DM would have to cross-check each character against the requirements every time they levelled up -- and lots of the prestige classes have such specific requirements that they'd be virtually impossible to hit by chance at a reasonable level.

 

[Prime Junta]

That's the only thing going for it: almost zero management in combat. If that's what you like, might as well turn Story Mode on. It's not a good damage dealer and the Paladin and Monk are better at holding a position.

Low-micro is not the same as "easy."

And, again, if that's your criticism, then why would anyone ever play a fighter in the AD&D games? They don't have any class-specific abilities. They just hit harder and stay standing longer than the other classes.

 

[Fairfax]

Multi-classing and the fact it was good at its job. PoE's Fighter is worse than other classes at anything it tries to do.

 

[Shevek]

Go to Enworld and look at some of the builds people make with prestige classes... such shit.

Mystic Ranger 4/ Knight of the Raven 3/ Stalker of Kharash 2/ Crusader 1/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 (Arcane Hunter ACF, Sword of the Arcane Order feat)
Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Cloistered Cleric 1/Duskblade 5/Prestige Ranger 1/Prestige Paladin 2/Prestige Ranger 1/Arcane Hierophant X

Examples of this kinda shit is plentiful. This is the kinda crap prestige classes lead to. I used to be a fan when it first came out but after playing 5e, I came to realize just how shit prcs are.

 

[Infinitron]

Mystic Ranger 4/ Knight of the Raven 3/ Stalker of Kharash 2/ Crusader 1/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 (Arcane Hunter ACF, Sword of the Arcane Order feat)
Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Cloistered Cleric 1/Duskblade 5/Prestige Ranger 1/Prestige Paladin 2/Prestige Ranger 1/Arcane Hierophant X

If PoE had prestige classes, this is what the backer NPCs would be