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Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

Sannom

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Apr 11, 2010
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Glad to see somebody else noticed Cwineth. The amount of characterization she got made me think they might bring her back as a companion for a sequel.
That whole questline, Cwineth most prominently, actually made me care for the Dozen, or at least convinced me that there was more to them.

I understand that there is a way to pull off that quest in a completely non-violent fashion (something to do with the leader's amulet) if your reputation with Twin Elms (or the Fangs) is high enough, anybody managed to get it?
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
What do you mean by "pull off"? You can convince the Dyrwoodan party leader to surrender. Or you can open up the alternate path for him and then go around yourself so you don't run into the now-hostile Glanfathans.
 

Trashos

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I understand that there is a way to pull off that quest in a completely non-violent fashion (something to do with the leader's amulet) if your reputation with Twin Elms (or the Fangs) is high enough, anybody managed to get it?

You can take the dyrwoodan exhibition leader as a prisoner (instead of surrendering him to the Fangs) if you have high reputation with Twin Elms AND have built the Dungeon at Caed Nua.
 

Bleed the Man

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Eric Fenstermaker speaking about the writing for Pillars on the Obs forums:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/84754-too-much-text/page-3

This is a good discussion. If you're curious about where we at Obsidian stand on this issue, I can shed some light. (Although I'm just speaking for myself here.)

- Concise is only the undisputed goal of writing to high school English teachers. (No offense, teachers! Those kids have to learn self-editing.) Many of what are widely considered the greatest works of literature of all time are so dense with words that they are unreadable to much if not most of the population. One of the hallmark traits of literature as a genre is that the authors commonly push the form in a new direction with a distinctive prose style. Hemingway did this with conciseness. Joyce is more at the other end of the spectrum with his more adventurous works. Both are considered masters. "Good writing" is completely independent of verbosity. (And frankly I never loved Hemingway, because concise, taken too far, becomes dull.)

- That said, we want our games to be readable. We are not looking to enter the literary canon by displaying our comma splice or stream-of-consciousness prowess. Concise isn't always the answer, but I think "clean" is maybe a better target. Does the prose have a nice flow to it? Does it avoid redundancy with its descriptive words? Are we breaking it up enough with dialogue that it's not wall after wall of text?

- We often were not clean in the Pillars base game. There are a ton of reasons for that. Rust, experience level (maybe 10 different people contributed writing, all with varying levels of experience), a lack of time to edit, a new setting that demanded a large amount of exposition, and a plot that exacerbated the problem by requiring that a lot of it be front-loaded. I cringe at plenty of my own stuff when I look back at it.

- I do believe we're getting better at writing cleanly, and hopefully those who've played White March would agree that we're trending in the right direction. (I'd be curious to hear your impressions, though.) Some of the above root issues still persisted, so we weren't perfect, but I personally felt in playing the game that it was quite a lot easier to read through it without getting fatigued or rolling your eyes at overwrought prose.

- There are certain unfortunate requirements of the form that handcuff you as a writer. I don't think many people are aware of them until they actually try to write RPG dialogue for themselves.

One of the biggest is that branching dialogue encourages NPC monologuing as a device to mitigate the amount of branching that you do. If every time the player has an opportunity to respond, we have to give them 3+ things to say, the more the NPC can say between those player responses, the less enormous your dialogue file is. (There are other measures equally as controversial - having more inconsequential lines that all funnel to the same NPC response, or giving the player less opportunity to make choices of what to say, forcing them to say some lines from time to time.) Writing an RPG dialogue is a balancing act of trying to find the structure that will make the player hate you the least that you will also be able to finish on schedule. But you will see NPC monologuing dating all the way back to BG and PS:T, and that's why. It's unnatural and it reads kind of silly. It's not how I would write dialogue in a book or screenplay. You'll note the dialogue in our short stories reads quite a lot differently than our game dialogue.

The other major issue is that we have to cater to a player base with a broad range of attention spans. Some read everything, but many skim and miss stuff. Sometimes that stuff is very important. Unfortunately, as the goal is for everyone to understand what's going on, sometimes important information has to be restated several times or in several different places, or else people will miss it or fail to understand it. Maerwald was a victim of this. (He was also overloaded with exposition, which was a separate problem. Don't give crazy characters exposition, kids.) I did a first pass of Maerwald, and testers were not understanding what his deal was. So I dumbed it down, and still the same problem. By the time people understood his story, the dialogue had become a slog. The testers were bright people that were doing their job properly, so that's not to lay blame on them. Just making the point that what's redundant to one player will often be a minimum requirement for another to follow what's going on.

- Going forward, the choice of how much text we use will continue to be defined per-project, I think. With Pillars, if we were to do a sequel, I don't think the goal would be less text, per se, but we would want to be more economical and readable, hopefully with more time carved out for a real editing pass.
 

Athelas

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Interesting. I wasn't aware QA has so much influence on writing. It doesn't sound like it was for the better.
 

Fairfax

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He seems to pretend the word "concise" suddenly earned a different meaning just so nobody can claim he caved to those who requested it.

Concise isn't always the answer, but I think "clean" is maybe a better target. Does the prose have a nice flow to it? Does it avoid redundancy with its descriptive words? Are we breaking it up enough with dialogue that it's not wall after wall of text?

ith Pillars, if we were to do a sequel, I don't think the goal would be less text, per se, but we would want to be more economical and readable, hopefully with more time carved out for a real editing pass.

:roll:
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Well, if you're a person who praises PS:T writing but not PoE writing, I think we can say that "conciseness" is not your issue with it by most reasonable understandings of the term.

But gee, I wonder what made Eric think this was something worth responding to. +M
 

Fry

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Did he?

He makes the perfectly valid point that less text is not better text. I'm fairly convinced that, despite what they might claim, less is actually what most people want. Quality be damned.
 

Trashos

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Eric Fenstermaker speaking about the writing for Pillars on the Obs forums:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/84754-too-much-text/page-3

......
The other major issue is that we have to cater to a player base with a broad range of attention spans. Some read everything, but many skim and miss stuff. Sometimes that stuff is very important. Unfortunately, as the goal is for everyone to understand what's going on, sometimes important information has to be restated several times or in several different places, or else people will miss it or fail to understand it. Maerwald was a victim of this. (He was also overloaded with exposition, which was a separate problem. Don't give crazy characters exposition, kids.) I did a first pass of Maerwald, and testers were not understanding what his deal was. So I dumbed it down, and still the same problem. By the time people understood his story, the dialogue had become a slog. The testers were bright people that were doing their job properly, so that's not to lay blame on them. Just making the point that what's redundant to one player will often be a minimum requirement for another to follow what's going on.
.......

Wow, I was really pissed off with Maerwald's dialogue. The content had the potential to offer one of the most chilling moments in the game, but the delivery was horrible and I felt that it insulted my intelligence.

Good to know what happened there. I wish I could see the initial version given to the testers.
 

Fairfax

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Well, if you're a person who praises PS:T writing but not PoE writing, I think we can say that "conciseness" is not your issue with it by most reasonable understandings of the term.

But gee, I wonder what made Eric think this was something worth responding to. +M
You fail to see my point. He dismisses concise writing as the solution, then goes on to describe his solution as concise in everything but name.
 

Neanderthal

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Seems to be a common theme this QA missin shit, or a feature not goin down well wi em so its booted, gotta admit i'm wondering what kinda folk are testing their games cause if its kiddies used to quest markers, streamlining an all dumb shit that passes for innovation an advancement now, well there's gonna be a huge difference between us old autistic nerds an them. Not saying they shunt listen to QA, but maybe balance it wi a wide range o opinions from different demographics, cause lets face it most modern games basically play emsens which is exact opposite o a good RPG in my book.
 

Ninjerk

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Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
Seems to be a common theme this QA missin shit, or a feature not goin down well wi em so its booted, gotta admit i'm wondering what kinda folk are testing their games cause if its kiddies used to quest markers, streamlining an all dumb shit that passes for innovation an advancement now, well there's gonna be a huge difference between us old autistic nerds an them. Not saying they shunt listen to QA, but maybe balance it wi a wide range o opinions from different demographics, cause lets face it most modern games basically play emsens which is exact opposite o a good RPG in my book.
Calling Roguey to dig up those old testing stories

EDIT: And the devs that can't beat vanilla PoE on hard.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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Seems to be a common theme this QA missin shit, or a feature not goin down well wi em so its booted, gotta admit i'm wondering what kinda folk are testing their games cause if its kiddies used to quest markers, streamlining an all dumb shit that passes for innovation an advancement now, well there's gonna be a huge difference between us old autistic nerds an them. Not saying they shunt listen to QA, but maybe balance it wi a wide range o opinions from different demographics, cause lets face it most modern games basically play emsens which is exact opposite o a good RPG in my book.
Calling Roguey to dig up those old testing stories

EDIT: And the devs that can't beat vanilla PoE on hard.

Even among hardcore PC RPG fans, there is a wide spectrum of skill, experience, and preference. When I started at Black Isle, I designed a bunch of fights in IWD that only a handful of veteran BG testers could get through. Memorably, I saw a QA tester blow a fuse because a fight in Lower Dorn's Deep was "impossible". When I showed him how I got through it, I started off by having my casters go through six rounds of buffs. "What are you doing?" he asked. "Uh... buffing my party?" This seemed normal to me. DUH YEAH BUFF YOUR PARTY TO HELL AND BACK LOCK AND LOAD PAY ATTENTION FFFFFFFFFF. Despite his high experience with RPGs and Baldur's Gate, he just... never thought of it. The problem was that the entire fight was balanced around a party that was optimally built and lit up like a Christmas tree from stacked buffs.

(that tester was probably Brian Mitsoda judging by this retelling)

About halfway through IWD's development, a QA tester (who went on to become a pretty well-respected developer) came up to Black Isle and was furious at the difficulty of a fight in Lower Dorn's Deep. He had been trying to legitimately get through it for 2 hours and hadn't succeeded. Kihan Pak and I loaded it up and beat it on the first try. He asked to see what we were doing. Naturally, we were pre-buffing for 5-6 rounds before we even went into the fight. Because there was no opportunity cost to using buffs, this was "the way" to get through fights, but it was tedious -- and for people who were not D&D veterans, it was not something they ever thought to do, which resulted in a full roadblock (see also: Burial Isle misery, which was also pretty easy for me and Kihan).

as easy as new vegas is, i've watched a lot of testers and let's play videos of people who repeatedly die horribly despite having more than enough appropriate character skills and gear to handle the problem at hand. one of my favorite was watching a guy attack NCR heavy troopers with a caravan shotgun/ordinary buckshot. he repeatedly went into his inventory and skipped over the brush gun, a light machinegun with AP rounds, shotgun slugs. he just kept shooting the troopers and getting a red shield until he died. i think he eventually just stimmed and ate his way through the fight.

the second was even crazier. a guy who apparently has a ton of WRPG experience was moving across a bridge and a deathclaw was directly in his field of view. he would not see the deathclaw (somehow) and start running forward toward it. halfway across the bridge was a chest on the ground. he would get distracted by the chest, look down to loot it, and when he looked up, the deathclaw would one-shot him. this happened to him four times in a row. when he finally realized what was going on and attempted to kill the deathclaw at distance, he tried an unmodded tri-beam laser rifle, a regular laser rifle, and a 9mm SMG while skipping over an anti-materiel rifle, brush gun, missile launcher, etc. he also tried mines but kept placing them in areas where he was retreating, so he would always die before the deathclaw.

A retelling with slightly different info:

During one of the usability test sessions for F:NV, i watched a player repeatedly die in the same spot performing the same series of actions over and over again. he would scope something at a distance and kill it. killing it would reveal a deathclaw behind it, really clearly visible in the middle of the day. either he would not register that the deathclaw was there or he was simply ignoring it as he moved toward the chest that he had been scoping at a distance. as he approached the chest, he would become transfixed on it and look down while the deathclaw charged him. he opened the chest, looted it, closed it, looked up, and was immediately killed by a single swipe from the deathclaw. i checked the survey he filled out and he listed almost every high-profile RPG made in the 5-10 years prior.

then i watched him reload and perform the same series of actions three more times.

my expectation really was that players would test the boundaries of northern and eastern routes and either find a way through or make a strategic decision to follow the marker. what i actually saw in the released game was an unending stream of people who would die against deathclaws, cazadores, or super mutants, reload the game, and make the same attempt again in the exact same way. no variation in approach or selected gear, no use of chems or other consumables to raise their stats, no additional scouting for a better view of what was ahead. they would just repeatedly do the exact same thing and die again in the exact same way and eventually get furious.

I can personally test things on Hard, as can Bobby and a few other folks, but most of the other devs cannot. Or rather, they wouldn't really get anywhere. If I listened to them for tuning advice, Hard wouldn't be hard at all.
 

Trashos

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Well, unless you are Miguel de Cervantes, at some point you have to decide whether you want your life's work to be accessible to retards or enjoyable by non-retards.
 

tdphys

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Does POE scale quest XP dependent on your level? I'm doing the main questline in Defiance bay quickly after getting up to level 8 in White March 1... I'd swear the quest rewards are less... at least I hope so. I always thought that quest scaling ruined POE, but if lower level quests give less xp to higher level characters, I'll have to eat that thought...
 
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CptMace

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Many of what are widely considered the greatest works of literature of all time are so dense with words that they are unreadable to much if not most of the population.

I stopped reading here.

Muh the plebs, muh stupid.
 
Last edited:
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Does POE scale quest XP dependent on your level? I'm doing the main questline in Defiance bay quickly after getting up to level 8 in White March 1... I'd swear the quest rewards are less... at least I hope so. I always thought that quest scaling ruined POE, but if lower level quests give less xp to higher level characters, I'll have to eat that thought...

So, is the quest xp scaled?
 

Neanderthal

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"Many of what are widely considered the greatest works of literature of all time are so dense with words that they are unreadable to much if not most of the population."

Ehm i'd say a few of the great works are, for instance "History of Tom Jones, a foundling" that shit just goes on and fucking on, an I found it unfinishable. That said great writers can say a fucking lot wi a few words, or absolutely spellbind you with a lot on em. Iago says to the Moor, Methinks the lady doth complain too much, clever, quick, saying a fucking lot without using too hardly any words. Shakespeare might have played to crowds in Globe, but his writing were aimed much higher.
 
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CptMace

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That's not even the question.
If something is widely considered great it kinda implies it is so by most people. Otherwise the "widely" in question doesn't mean shit, then it's academically acclaimed or whatever.
Although a good piece of art, of any form, should be accessible by everybody as good old Mirbeau stated.

Octave_Mirbeau.jpg
This could be a cool emote btw.
 

Trashos

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Gonna have to disagree, guys.

You can't really expect facebook's crowd to appreciate Tarkovsky's movies or Kafka's writings. But these are the artists that have been affecting other good creators for decades.

Is anybody here claiming that the vast majority understand Kubrick's or Kundera's works? Plato? Do they even have a fighting chance? Cpt Mace, are you claiming that Dan Brown is somehow superior to Tolstoy?

This is not a matter of ideology, btw. It is what it is. Popular success can happen for great (with a lasting influence) works as well, but only as an exception to the rule.
 

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