Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[FreeKaner]

Still, people's tendency to see statistics as an argument rather than reflection is disappointing to say the least.

 

[Quillon]

But telemetrics allow you to sort so much data from a larger pool – it goes beyond the anecdote of an individual player’s experience and you see a lot of patterns emerge, such as things they miss, or drop, what chests they open or don’t open, what paths they take through and in what order, did they notice a secret door, where they stop, or where they die, or where they quit playing.

Well, Josh claims telemetrics tell more, if that's so the question is how'll they use it? Eıther they'll try to make something better cos most players ignore it or they'll decide to not bother with it in the future and fewer percentage who enjoyed it...won't anymore :D

 

[CptMace]

Usually when you take a look at the data at your disposal, you don't just ignore any gap that could appear between different groups. Or phenomenons like the revelation of an extremely wide and thin range of behaviours etc.
I don't think they would aim for a non-existent middle-ground representant if that doesn't match any profile their data could display.
However it's useful when it comes to balancing things out.

 

[Cross]

Otherwise, yeah, many spells for all classes are overshadowed by just a few which are more useful in 99% of situations

That makes it a lot like the Infinity Englne games, and is yet another piece of evidence against those who say that the IE games are totally different from PoE from a player's perspective (rather than a system designer's perspective).

It makes it very different from the Infinity Engine games. Many spells in the IE games scaled with your level. Depending on what the spell did, it would have a longer duration, deal more damage or produce more effects as you leveled up, which meant those spells remained competitive to some extent. This isn't the case in PoE. Furthermore, spells in the IE games usually had some 'hard' effect such as immunity or invisibility which meant they always remained useful, whereas the 'softer' effects of many PoE spells, like slightly lowering enemy stats or slightly raising player stats become less meaningful as you progress through the game and stats of both enemy and player increase.

It's not just spells. The backstab multiplier of a thief in the IE games greatly increases with his level. The backstab bonus damage in PoE is a relatively minor boost that remains static throughout the entire game.

Here's a direct comparison:

This is Ironskin in Pillars of Eternity: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Ironskin

It can only be cast in combat and lasts only for the duration of that specific combat encounter, which can be anywhere from a few minutes to (more likely) a few seconds. It merely adds 8 DR to the first 10 attacks received. Even if your DR were to exceed the damage the enemy does, which is unlikely, you will still receive some damage. It's even more unlikely you'll even be hit for 10 times during one particular encounter. As you progress through the game and enemy damage increases, the 8 DR will become less and less useful in shielding you from damage.

This is the equivalent wizard spell in Baldur's Gate: http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Stoneskin

It lasts for 12 hours and can completely absorb the damage of physical attacks. For every 2 levels you gain the spells adds a new damage-absorbing skin, to a maximum of 10 skins at level 20.

 

[Sizzle]

The backstab bonus damage in PoE is a relatively minor boost that remains static throughout the entire game.

What are you on about - the sneak attack damage is +50%, which can further be augmented with the right talents, such as Deathblows and Backstab. What's relatively minor about that?

 

[Lacrymas]

I don't think they would aim for a non-existent middle-ground representant if that doesn't match any profile their data could display.

That is the only thing their data displays. At least Josh talks about it like it does, otherwise we wouldn't have picked up on it. It's not only from this interview, though, he generally speaks like he's talking about an imaginary person when he discusses what people do or don't do. Removing mechanics based on that further cements that notion. It's weird, but it's not only Obs that are guilty of this, D:OS2 was also designed this way and it shows. Some kind of game that appeals to a statistical average. I'm not saying statistics don't matter, they do, but they represent people's desires in hindsight and in general, not what else they can and would like if given the opportunity to. It's kind of like design-by-committee, but the other extreme, designed by democratic poll, which also leads to sterility. Whatever people's stances on games-as-art, they are as much a creative endeavor as a technical one, so these broad strokes they design around simply make a predictable game because that's what people voted for. Nothing extraordinary can be created out of averages, that's insane.

 

[Luckmann]

Also, if I'm remembering things right, it's not static, because damage stacks additively. Meaning that it actually decreases in strength during the course of the game, relative to your total number of damage increases.

When your damage is already increased by +100% from other sources, getting it to +150% isn't as strong as if you'd go from +0% to +50%.

 

[Lacrymas]

Sneak Attacks are more like bonuses rather than a main sort of attack. It's not like in any version of D&D, 2E had the backstab multiplier, while 3E had +1d6 damage every other level, so it felt powerful always, but also provided versatility because it wasn't tied to stats or skills, while in PoE they feel wimpy, you have to purposefully build for damage and a non-event. Deathblows have more of an impact.

 

[Cross]

The backstab bonus damage in PoE is a relatively minor boost that remains static throughout the entire game.

What are you on about - the sneak attack damage is +50%, which can further be augmented with the right talents, such as Deathblows and Backstab. What's relatively minor about that?

I'm comparing it to the IE games, so I'm talking about the scenario where a thief sneaks up on an enemy for a backstab, so Deathblows wouldn't apply there. That scenario isn't really viable in PoE precisely because backstabbing is so weak.

But more importantly, there's this to consider:

Also, if I'm remembering things right, it's not static, because damage stacks additively. Meaning that it actually decreases in strength during the course of the game, relative to your total number of damage increases.

When your damage is already increased by +100% from other sources, getting it to +150% isn't as strong as if you'd go from +0% to +50%.

You're not getting that sneak attack/backstab bonus on top of your normal damage, it sits alongside all other bonuses, like the one you get from your might attribute, your weapon bonus, etc. So in practice, it ends up being a relatively minor boost.

 

[Luckmann]

You're not getting that sneak attack/backstab bonus on top of your normal damage, it sits alongside all other bonuses, like the one you get from your might attribute, your weapon bonus, etc. So in practice, it ends up being a relatively minor boost.

I believe that was exactly what I just said, yes.

Sneak Attacks are more like bonuses rather than a main sort of attack. It's not like in any version of D&D, 2E had the backstab multiplier, while 3E had +1d6 damage every other level, so it felt powerful always, but also provided versatility because it wasn't tied to stats or skills, while in PoE they feel wimpy, you have to purposefully build for damage and a non-event. Deathblows have more of an impact.

So be fair, though, in at least DnD 3.5, getting consistent sneak attacks usually isn't that easy at all, especially if we discount obvious cheeze and very high-level play. On top of that, tons of things are immune to it.

The whole idea of consistently and constantly making use of every single aspect of your character - such as backstabs or sneak attacks - is really quite modern, and especially prevalent in vidya; far less in PnP:s - especially in good PnPs, where a good shot might prompt a good GM to flat-out take your target out, no ifs or buts, because you stabbed him clean through the head, whether you technically did 1d8+3d6 damage or not.

 

[Lacrymas]

I didn't word it properly, by "main sort of attack" I meant your character doing something impactful, that's why I said the sneak attack being only a bonus. Yeah, totally different, my bad, but there you go. In PoE landing sneak attacks was a non-event and part of your main sources of damage. You could also give everyone sneak attacks and it just boosted their damage by 15%, whoop-di-doo. Very underwhelming and almost mandatory for good builds.

 

[Iznaliu]

far less in PnP:s - especially in good PnPs, where a good shot might prompt a good GM to flat-out take your target out, no ifs or buts

I've never heard of that mentality, but wouldn't that get rid of the whole point of using an tabletop RPG system? It would probably be easier to LARP and beat people in your group with foam swords.

 

[Parabalus]

Also, if I'm remembering things right, it's not static, because damage stacks additively. Meaning that it actually decreases in strength during the course of the game, relative to your total number of damage increases.

When your damage is already increased by +100% from other sources, getting it to +150% isn't as strong as if you'd go from +0% to +50%.

That's the wrong way to look at it IMO, since you aren't tunneling damage and measuring DPS on a infinite HP target dummy.

The faster you gib something the easier combat is, especially since in PoE difficulty is frontloaded on combat start.

So be fair, though, in at least DnD 3.5, getting consistent sneak attacks usually isn't that easy at all, especially if we discount obvious cheeze and very high-level play. On top of that, tons of things are immune to it.

The whole idea of consistently and constantly making use of every single aspect of your character - such as backstabs or sneak attacks - is really quite modern, and especially prevalent in vidya; far less in PnP:s - especially in good PnPs, where a good shot might prompt a good GM to flat-out take your target out, no ifs or buts, because you stabbed him clean through the head, whether you technically did 1d8+3d6 damage or not.

In Nwn1&2 you started spamming sneak attacks almost on PoE level very early due to their implementation of HiPS, first one felt horrible because of no epic precision though.

In BGs it felt nice finding the rare important target to oneshot, which wasn't outright immune or had precast stoneskin, gave them a special feeling.

 

[Lacrymas]

Only Shadowdancers have HiPS, but yeah, it was cheesy as hell.

 

[Parabalus]

Only Shadowdancers have HiPS, but yeah, it was cheesy as hell.

In Nwn2 Assassins also have it.

A bit cheesy, but playing "rogues" is just horrible otherwise.

 

[Luckmann]

That's the wrong way to look at it IMO, since you aren't tunneling damage and measuring DPS on a infinite HP target dummy.

The faster you gib something the easier combat is, especially since in PoE difficulty is frontloaded on combat start.

That's really completely beside the point, the point being that the benefit of sneak attacks isn't static, and that the damage bonus actually diminishes in value as the game goes on.

The real question in regards to your point is whether it's worthwhile to get invested in it, compared to getting invested in more rewarding facets of combat, but that's a different discussion entirely.

In Nwn1&2 you started spamming sneak attacks almost on PoE level very early due to their implementation of HiPS, first one felt horrible because of no epic precision though.

In BGs it felt nice finding the rare important target to oneshot, which wasn't outright immune or had precast stoneskin, gave them a special feeling.

Yeah, especially in BG1, where many things were susceptible to backstabs and the extra damage mattered a lot more. In BG2, it's extremely easy to abuse LoS/stealth/backstabs with Boots of Speed and similar, but on the other hand, it's useless so often that it's often simply not an option. That said, BG1/2 aren't 3e or 3.5, even; you never really put any effort into building for backstabbing, it's just something that happens to be there, that you can benefit from or not.

Either way, when I said DnD 3.5 and such, I meant in PnP. It's not uncommon for there to be multiple sessions and countless combat encounters where the rogue doesn't get a sneak attack in unless you build or do setups for it, which is why it's usually a loss to waste Feats on it. And in other PnP RPG:s that I've played, it's often even harder, and many games don't even have "sneak attack" bonuses, just surprise rounds, flanking and aimed shots and stuff like that, and honestly, I think that works better.

I'm of the opinion that the rogue as a class in DnD was a mistake - the things it does are things that basically anyone should be able to do depending on build and circumstance.

Only Shadowdancers have HiPS, but yeah, it was cheesy as hell.

Only Shadowdancers have HiPS, but yeah, it was cheesy as hell.

In Nwn2 Assassins also have it.

A bit cheesy, but playing "rogues" is just horrible otherwise.

Notably, it's just a 1-level dip into Shadowmancer, IIRC. And IIRC, Assassins get it too, in NWN2, yeah, because again IIRC, they don't get spells in NWN2, whereas they do in PnP. And also because they'd suck absolute ass without it - Assassins are built around getting those sneak attacks in, but getting those in without a source of consistent stealthing in NWN2 would be fucking impossible.

The way Death Attack works in 3.5 PnP is very different, and Assassins in the PnP are a fair bit more powerful, likely precisely because getting sneak attacks consistently is a lot harder. Especially ranger, oh god. There's some cheesy shit you can do though, but it's clearly not the norm.

 

[Luckmann]

far less in PnP:s - especially in good PnPs, where a good shot might prompt a good GM to flat-out take your target out, no ifs or buts

I've never heard of that mentality, but wouldn't that get rid of the whole point of using an tabletop RPG system? It would probably be easier to LARP and beat people in your group with foam swords.

There's one thing using a rules system, and there's another thing entirely to be autistic about it. Finding a good middle-ground is always the best. Otherwise, you'll never be able to take out guards in a single strike while sneaking into the castle, you'll never be able to deck someone with a stone, and that hostage the enemy has will have to be stabbed repeatedly to go down, and woe to them if they miss because they roll a 1 despite having the knife to their throat. I'm currently playing with a GM that I find just a little bit too stringent on the rules, and we actually had that last situation arise, where a hostage with a knife to their throat had to be stabbed twice or something, and my jaw dropped a little as to why he didn't just do it in a narrative fashion.

When I GM WFRP2, I regularly don't even count Wounds or consult the critical hit tables just to see exactly how the enemy goes down, I just describe their grissly demise, because slogging shit down just because "But the rules says..!" is maximus autismus and genuinely serves no fucking reason. I'm sorry, but if you get an axe embedded into your neck, with no ifs or buts about it, or if a drawbridge falls squarely on you, or if you get thrown right clear of a 30 meter wall into the pavement, you're SOL bar divine intervention. The same applies to unaware enemies; no chance to dodge, no chance to soak, no chance to block, you just got 15cm of adamantine steel into your right earhole, fucko.

 

[Roguey]

Whatever people's stances on games-as-art, they are as much a creative endeavor as a technical one, so these broad strokes they design around simply make a predictable game because that's what people voted for. Nothing extraordinary can be created out of averages, that's insane.

Most games are work-for-hire drudgery, Pillars is one of these. Passion projects like Fallout are few and far between.

 

[Lacrymas]

Most games are work-for-hire drudgery, Pillars is one of these. Passion projects like Fallout are few and far between.

That doesn't matter, nor does it matter how much the people working on them don't want to do it or are suffering in a cubicle farm, games are still fundamentally a creative endeavor whatever amount of creativity or "passion" you put in them. Making a predictable and designed-by-committee/democratic poll game is as interesting and engaging as creating a predictable whatever other art-form, i.e. not interesting at all.

 

[Roguey]

That doesn't matter, nor does it matter how much the people working on them don't want to do it or are suffering in a cubicle farm, games are still fundamentally a creative endeavor whatever amount of creativity or "passion" you put in them. Making a predictable and designed-by-committee/democratic poll game is as interesting and engaging as creating a predictable whatever other art-form, i.e. not interesting at all.

Makes money though and that's the design behind Pillars of Eternity, a way to get Obsidian Entertainment as much money as quickly as possible but without catering to the mass market.

 

[Jason Liang]

Didn't they playtest Pillars at all? Why didn't a playtester step up and say directly to their face that nearly everything abou their game and system stinks?

 

[Roguey]

Didn't they playtest Pillars at all? Why didn't a playtester step up and say directly to their face that nearly everything abou their game and system stinks?

They're not changing everything, just making a few significant quality-of-life tweaks.

 

[aweigh]

@Bishop Lacrymas

Welp, it took me until now but I finally did it.

I broke PoE's character development system. Forget every single thing I said earlier in praise of PoE's many options. I went and just dumped INT to "3" on every single character, including Durance, Kana and Aloth, then:

- Dumped INT to 3 on everybody.
- Lowered DEX to 7 on everybody.
- Lowered Resolve to 8 on everybody.

+ Use the now 12 free points (7 from INT, 3 from DEX, 2 from RES), plus the standard 18 points (15 universal, then racial points and lastly background point = 15 + 3 = 18) to max:

Max MIGHT, max CON, and max PERCEPTION. Whatever's left, if you want, put it into RES.

That's it. That's all you have to do. Any character, any class, any build, any combination of optimal or sub-optimal shenanigans? You will crit constantly, enemies may hit you but your Endurance is ridiculous, and every hit you land will do tons of damage.

It's kind of disappointing how effective this spread is, tbh. The lack of INT does not affect caster/spell effectiveness in any way because it only affects DURATION, and the real deal spells you will want are:

- Healing (your max MIGHT makes them heal a ton).
- CC spells or Direct Damage (Only thing that matters when casting is: your MAX PERCEPTION; the max MIG makes the damage spells you use go to above-average from their normal uselessness).

Pallegina and Kana's "Aura Size" ranges suffering? Nope, slap them with Overseeing items and raise their INT to 5 with some +2 INT items and guess what? There is literally no practical in-game difference that is noticeable by humans in terms of Aura effectiveness with dumped INT.

Yeah, I know, this post is about 2 years too late and I bet everybody already knew dumping INT and taking off 2-3 pts off DEX and RES are the "ultimate build", literally it is a universal attribute spread for any build.

Hope this won't be the case in PoE 2!

R00fles!

EDIT: BTW, this current retard-brain party of mine are all using counter-optimal talents, like for example:

- Kana is using NOVICE'S SUFFERING, Ancient Memory and Veteran's Recovery, with empty MAIN-HAND (i.e. his Monk punch) and LARDER DOOR bashing shield in his OFF-HAND.

- Rogue PC is using sword and shield, cautious attack, Sword of Yenwood (Reliable property) and triggering RIPOSTE constantly, which counts both as a Sneak Attack.

- Durance is sub-class Priest of Berath using a Greatsword, and Outlander's Frenzy to make himself attack/cast faster.

- Aloth is an INTERRUPT build Wizard, i.e. he is using an Arbalest (STRONG INTERRUPT property) and has max MIG/PER, so he's constantly making enemies PRONE due to Arbalest prone-on-crit property, AND interrupting them; Thrust of Tat. Veils during Arbalest reload time (FAST casting time, STRONG interrupt property).

Anyway, my point is simply to mention that it is a super retardedly sub-optimal party. I literally am going out of my way to give them random talents and equipment, heh.

 

[Lacrymas]

Dumping is extremely effective in PoE, despite the intention of "no dump stats", but I hadn't thought of dumping INT or DEX that low. Quite funny, I love it.

 

[aweigh]

When you suddenly realize that how much a healing spell heals, or whether or not Slicken prones everybody, is dependant on attributes that are not INT you start questioning life, Joshua Sawyer, and shit-posting... main issue here, and easy to fix to prevent INT dumping universally is simple:

- eliminate Spell "accuracy' being derived solely from PER.

- Make INT's duration link be a flat additive, not +5% of base duration per INT point. That shit is fucking retarded and means that even with 22 INT you will almost never "feel" that extra duration, or whatever.

It's because base durations for most shit is a low number, and afflictions can go away during a fight, whereas attack damage climbs almost twice as high making the % increase per MIG point actually really, really, really good.

Bah, but whatever, I'm tired of playing this game. I'll wait for PoE 2 now. My plan was to play White March 2 (haven't played it, only part 1) but I don't think I have the will-power to play through PoE content again.