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Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

AwesomeButton

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Something just occurred to me -- if I want no character build to be useless, maybe I should provide such (and so much) content, that a build emphasizing on any skillset/attributes distribution would find use to their skills.

Nah, I changed my mind -- it's easier to fix this from the other end, by just making all builds play the same.
 
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Time for me to move on and forget about this game. I think that per total the game is less fun and a bigger failure then Wasteland 2. I for one don't have any interest in paying or playing part 2 of the expansion.
I have seen today what a great CRPG Age of Decadence will be made by an even smaller group and with less money. From what I have played it really shines in comparison to Pillars. Pillars will be a very forgettable game in time. So much potential wasted. A shame!

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Copper

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Time for me to move on and forget about this game. I think that per total the game is less fun and a bigger failure then Wasteland 2. I for one don't have any interest in paying or playing part 2 of the expansion.
I have seen today what a great CRPG Age of Decadence will be made by an even smaller group and with less money. From what I have played it really shines in comparison to Pillars. Pillars will be a very forgettable game in time. So much potential wasted. A shame!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

Hmm, I thought you were PoE-Positive, now you're burnt out? Damn. Gonna mess around in AoD a bit myself now as well, although I'm mostly interested in playing through the complete package, so it's killing my motivation to play.
 
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I had a good time playing twice the story and part 1 but that's about all I can take. I started my 3rd play and lost interest. Now that AOE is releasing I will have no time to mess around with PoE.

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I am disappointed with what I got for the money I spend in comparison to Wasteland 2 that got Director's Cut and Divinity will have EE. Instead of fixing what was wrong they released a DLC comparable with a price of a triple A product. Pillars was never a AAA title, it was somewhere in the middle. I still think that it's a good game versus Dragon Age or Fallout 3 : I thank KS for that but as a company InXile, Larian and IronTower offers a much better deal then Obsidian. They should look more at what and how Brian Fargo does things. Maybe InXile should buy Obsidian :)

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Bonerbill

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I am disappointed with what I got for the money I spend in comparison to Wasteland 2 that got Director's Cut and Divinity will have EE. Instead of fixing what was wrong they released a DLC comparable with a price of a triple A product. Pillars was never a AAA title, it was somewhere in the middle. I still think that it's a good game versus Dragon Age or Fallout 3 : I thank KS for that but as a company InXile, Larian and IronTower offers a much better deal then Obsidian. They should look more at what and how Brian Fargo does things.

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The White March adds in a lot of extra content. It's definitely more of an expansion more than your typical DLC like Honest Hearts.

$15-$20 is your standard price for expansions these days, whether that expansion a mid tier or AAA style game. Games like Talos Principle, Witcher 3, Cities Skylines, Crusader Kings II, etc have expansions that cost around that price range.
 

LESS T_T

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Codex 2014
"How Pillars of Eternity found widespread success by embracing its niche appeal": http://www.pcgamesn.com/pillars-of-...espread-success-by-embracing-its-niche-appeal

But if you’re the creator about to put your livelihood on the line, as Obsidian cofounder Josh Sawyer was in September 2012, you don’t take anything for granted.

:nocountryforshitposters:

“The Kickstarter campaign was very gruelling, which is a common theme other people who have been through the [same] process have reported. It sounds like a silly complaint: ‘Oh god, it was so successful, we had to keep working so hard at it.’ But we had preliminarily discussed [a budgeting plan] and we really didn’t think we’d have to move on that for a few weeks. So when the money started coming in, we realised ‘Oh crap, we really have to move quickly with this.’ We launched on a Friday, and the next day we were in the office at 8AM on a Saturday going, like, ‘Oh crap, we have to figure this out right now.’”

In many cases, Sawyer says, the team were using their best guesses to assess how much certain elements of their game would cost. “For example, we had our two big city goals. It was like, does it cost five hundred thousand dollars to make a huge city? It seems like maybe it’s more. Does it cost a hundred thousand dollars to make a Linux version or a Mac version? I don’t know.”

With backers continuing to tick off the project’s stretch goals, the team had to decide where to allocate their time and money quickly, and commit to those decisions. Ultimately, Sawyer concedes, it led to certain features such as the player’s upgradable estate, Stronghold, “not quite getting as much attention as it should have.” With the game garnering a Metascore of 89 at launch, though, and many of the rough edges subsequently ironed out in post-release updates, Sawyer is in a position to reflect on any mistakes without too much chagrin.

A bit of Black Isle days talk:

“I started in ’99, right in the middle of Planescape: Torment’s development,” says Sawyer. “And I think at that period of time, there were a ton of designers working at that studio who were junior. For example, Icewind Dale was made almost entirely by juniors. Most of the designers were juniors, the programmers were juniors, the artists were neither new or juniors. We had no leads. [laughs]. That’s kind of crazy. Icewind Dale actually had no leads on the team at all.”

“I think we were all just very focused on making things that we thought were really cool. And I think the Torment team – and I’m speaking as an outsider because I just did web development – their focus seemed to be on just making the coolest stuff that they could.

“We were all working so much – I went to work every day of the week, I didn’t know what to do when I wasn’t at work, which was kind of unhealthy. But I think that a lot of us had… I don’t even want to say it was a work ethic, it was just a desire to be there making cool stuff and seeing it in the game.

“When Torment was released, I don’t think people got the impression that it would become an instant classic. I think people loved working on it, and thought it was very cool. I thought it was very cool. But I don’t think at that time people thought it would be an instant classic. It wasn’t until much later that people realised, ‘wow, we made something that people are gonna love for a long time.’”
 

Rake

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I think we were all just very focused on making things that we thought were really cool. And I think the Torment team – and I’m speaking as an outsider because I just did web development – their focus seemed to be on just making the coolest stuff that they could.
Someone should had learned a lesson there.
 

Rake

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You know, "we're all very focused on making things that we think are really cool" is the Bethesda way of making games. Be careful what you wish for.
True enough, but i assume a sertain level of competence from Obsidian that Bethesda lacks. If they had copied AD&D/BG2 to the letter and then just spend two and a half years coming up with realy cool content, PoE would be way better.
Sawyer's autistic way of approaching design is bad.
Even Bethesda, the one time they truly went wild, they gave as Morrowind. Which may be utter crap as a game, it's character writing as good as wikipedia articles, but the setting itself was very good, a shining example of a game were the "coolness" factor carried out the game by itself
 

Infinitron

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True enough, but i assume a sertain level of competence from Obsidian that Bethesda lacks. If they had copied AD&D/BG2 to the letter and then just spend two and a half years coming up with realy cool content, PoE would be way better.
Sawyer's autistic way of approaching design is bad.

I keep seeing this and I have to say that I don't see how Sawyer's absence would have made this game that much better for the people who hate it. What, you think a game made by anyone else over there was going to clone AD&D?

Here's Pillars of Eternity without Josh Sawyer:

Stats - would be less balanced and more "grognardy". Nobody would actually give a shit.

Spells - might have some immunity-type spells, but with few intricate encounters requiring that you ever actually use them. Playing Baldur's Gate 1 in the BG2 engine with all the mage duel spells available doesn't suddenly impart incredible depth on its combat.

Classes and class abilities - worse, with less diversity among them. Expect at least one class to just be a lightly modified version of another one. You hate the idea of per-encounter abilities and active abilities on non-caster classes? I could easily see other people at Obsidian dumping even more of those on you. The idea of some classes being built for more passive gameplay than others, with the option to actually customize them in one direction or the other, is not to be taken for granted in 2015.

Enemies - trash mob hordes would still be there, there would probably be even more of them. Every other Obsidian game says hi. Also, serious chance of there being fewer enemy types in the game overall. The sheer amount of enemy types the old games had is not something you can take for granted in 2015. It's something the project director had to make a very early decision to emphasize.

Difficulty - would probably be lower overall, except maybe for one or two difficulty spikes due to some overpowered enemy ability or other. Modern conveniences like characters who "wake up" after being knocked out in battle - all that stuff was never not going to be in the game.

Quest and area design - likely to be more uneven, with some areas receiving lots of love and cool content and others being boring and/or almost empty. Flawed gem syndrome ahoy!

Overall amount of content - probably less due to stuff getting cut owing to worse project management. Serious chance of Kickstarter stretch goal promises being reneged upon and delayed to the expansion pack.

Bugs - more of them. Pathfinding, AI, all that stuff - worse.

Sales and mainstream critical reception - guess!

-------------

In short, in a Sawyer-less PoE, the only thing I can see that could possibly be substantively improved from the point of view of Typical Codexer(tm) would be the quest and area design, and even that would be a divisive mixed bag. Lots of Codexers love KOTOR2, but I'm sure plenty would have been willing to give up on some amount of cool Kreia dialog in exchange for a less shitty ending. And I really don't see the combatfag PoE-haters being satisfied at all.
 
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Roguey

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If they had copied AD&D/BG2 to the letter and then just spend two and a half years coming up with realy cool content, PoE would be way better.

Josh Sawyer said:
I can personally test things on Hard, as can Bobby and a few other folks, but most of the other devs cannot. Or rather, they wouldn't really get anywhere. If I listened to them for tuning advice, Hard wouldn't be hard at all.

Ignoring mechanics, they probably should have made something closer to Planescape Torment when it came to the ratio of dialogue/exploration:combat, but I doubt that would have fixed the problems some of youse have with writing, the execution of which falls on Fenstermaker and the rest of the writers.

Even Bethesda, the one time they truly went wild, they gave as Morrowind.

I thought Morrowind was Bethesda significantly scaling back from Daggerfall and trying to make something with a bit more broader appeal (hence the xbox port)???
 

Mychkine

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I'm currently playing through the expension, and I don't understand why the mainstream media thinks it is worse than the main game. I found that the story and writing seem better done, with especially better pacing and less kickstarter shit content than in the main game.

However I still don't understand some of the design choices regarding the combat system. More precisely, I think that this system has a great emphasis on positioning well and on choosing the right attack to attack the weak points of the ennemy (or on creating these weak points by clever use of mezzers). Moreover, all classes have a lot of abilities, and it is decidely suboptimal to keep the team on auto-attack to focus on the odd caster NPC, constrasting stongly with the old IE games. It makes micro managing the fights a chore and drives to a unsatisfying way of playing this part of the game by bruteforcing though a lot of the fights.

I think these design decision would work better with a turn based combat system than with the rTWP one they implemented. These principles could lead to a much better combat system than the one used in W2 for instance (who may incidently work better with a real time component in it seeing how it is simplistic)
.
 

Rake

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In short, in a Sawyer-less PoE, the only thing I can see that could possibly be substantively improved from the point of view of Typical Codexer(tm) would be the quest and area design, and even that would be a divisive mixed bag. Lots of Codexers love KOTOR2, but I'm sure plenty would have been willing to give up on some amount of cool Kreia dialog in exchange for a less shitty ending. And I really don't see the combatfag PoE-haters being satisfied at all.
A honest to god combatfag should know better than to play Obsidian games. The rest of your post is about how good a project manager Sawyer is. That may be true, but then they should had kept him as such and not as a designer. And if Project managers were in such short supply in Obsidian, they should have never let Ksaun go.

Ignoring mechanics, they probably should have made something closer to Planescape Torment when it came to the ratio of dialogue/exploration:combat, but I doubt that would have fixed the problems some of youse have with writing, the execution of which falls on Fenstermaker and the rest of the writers.

They should have made Avellone project AND narrative lead and have him decide about everything instead of butchering his content (the only content in PoE to have great writing) Instead of spending 2.5 years designing and redesigning the combat systems (and having them be crap anyway), they should have spend the time implementing mental dungeons, non-systemic BG2 style stongholds that aren't shit, and every other crazy idea Avellone/Cain had. (in logical extent, a good Project manager should reign them in order the game not be very buggy)

Also combining your comment with Infinitron's about how every other designer left at Obsidian is even more incompetent than Sawyer, then yes, Obsidian should stick to making P:T style games, or even go full TellTale.

But with Avellone/Ziets gone and the new crop of writers' unimpresive results, maybe they should stick to MMOs / MOBAs :troll:
 

Latro

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But with Avellone/Ziets gone and the new crop's unimpresive results, maybe they should stick to MMOs / MOBAs :troll:
They'll probably continue to outsource themselves if they feel like they can't really rely on RPG stuff for money.
 

Rake

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The part about class design isn't. :M
Infinitron's about how every other designer left at Obsidian is even more incompetent than Sawyer, then yes, Obsidian should stick to making P:T style games, or even go full TellTale.

I mean, if Obsidian is a modern company with modern design sensibilities, why do we even bother having this discussion in the first place?
 
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Fairfax

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I keep seeing this and I have to say that I don't see how Sawyer's absence would have made this game that much better for the people who hate it. What, you think a game made by anyone else over there was going to clone AD&D?

Here's Pillars of Eternity without Josh Sawyer:

Stats - would be less balanced and more "grognardy". Nobody would actually give a shit.
Disagree. The attempt to keep everything balanced made a lot of things boring.

Spells - might have some immunity-type spells, but with few intricate encounters requiring that you ever actually use them. Playing Baldur's Gate 1 in the BG2 engine with all the mage duel spells available doesn't suddenly impart incredible depth on its combat.
Spells are not the main problem with encounters, it's their design. Also, I'm sure we would've had crazier, unique spells instead of the vast majority being percentage modifiers or boring, mostly indistinguishable status effects.

Classes and class abilities - worse, with less diversity among them. Expect at least one class to just be a lightly modified version of another one. You hate the idea of per-encounter abilities and active abilities on non-caster classes? I could easily see other people at Obsidian dumping even more of those on you. The idea of some classes being built for more passive gameplay than others, with the option to actually customize them in one direction or the other, is not to be taken for granted in 2015.
MCA said he had to keep pushing for the Cipher to be in the game early in development, and that was the most unique one. I don't think the number of classes would've changed at all, the 11 classes were defined by the KS already.
I also don't think the class design was great in the first place, and it's just getting worse, considering Sawyer just made Fighter absolutely pointless.

Enemies - trash mob hordes would still be there, there would probably be even more of them. Every other Obsidian game says hi. Also, serious chance of there being fewer enemy types in the game overall. The sheer amount of enemy types the old games had is not something you can take for granted in 2015. It's something the project director had to make a very early decision to emphasize.
Nothing would've changed here, agreed.

Difficulty - would probably be lower overall, except maybe for one or two difficulty spikes due to some overpowered enemy ability or other. Modern conveniences like characters who "wake up" after being knocked out in battle - all that stuff was never not going to be in the game.
Perhaps, but it's hard to speculate without knowing who would've been in his place. DS3 is the only recent project that wasn't led by Sawyer. It was not a hard game, but every boss had a difficulty spike compared to the rest of the game, so I think boss fights would've been hard and unfair as they should be, something that only happens twice in PoE, and one is entirely optional.

Quest and area design - likely to be more uneven, with some areas receiving lots of love and cool content and others being boring and/or almost empty. Flawed gem syndrome ahoy!
That's what happened already, what's your point here? I have no doubt this is the aspect that would've improved the most without Sawyer.

Overall amount of content - probably less due to stuff getting cut owing to worse project management. Serious chance of Kickstarter stretch goal promises being reneged upon and delayed to the expansion pack.
We don't know how other project directors were running the cancelled projects, so we only have KotOR II by MCA, Alpha Protocol by Chris Parker, South Park by 3 different directors and a heavy hand by Trey Parker and Matt Stone, Dungeon Siege III by Rich Taylor and the rest was Sawyer.
MCA has admitted several times that he and others made mistakes, but they only had ~14 months of development and LucasArts pushed the release date ahead of schedule, the game was meant to be released in 2005. This wouldn't have happened with PoE, which more than 2,5 years of development.
Alpha Protocol was a mess, nothing to defend there. Chris Parker definitely shouldn't have been lead for PoE.
We don't know much, but everything suggests Rich Taylor did a fine job with DS3. Not talking about the game itself, mind you, just that you said stuff would've been cut or delayed to the expansion pack. The fact Rich Taylor has been leading an unannounced project for 3 years now reinforces that.
South Park is a very very different game, Trey Parker and Matt Stone were heavily involved, etc. Shallow combat was the game's main problem, but I'm not sure who's to blame.

So, I don't see where you're getting this from. Do you think MCA as a director would've led to a lot of stuff being cut or delayed? Why? What about Rich Taylor?
Sawyer is definitely a good project manager, no doubt about that, but I don't see why you'd think anyone else would've been much worse.

Bugs - more of them. Pathfinding, AI, all that stuff - worse.
PoE had a lot of bugs and pathfinding and the AI still suck. South Park and Dungeon Siege III had fewer bugs, and PoE manages to add more of them every time the game's updated.

Sales and mainstream critical reception - guess!
Depends on too many things, but probably wouldn't have changed that much. With more reactivity and better quest design, I think both would've been higher.

In short, in a Sawyer-less PoE, the only thing I can see that could possibly be substantively improved from the point of view of Typical Codexer(tm) would be the quest and area design, and even that would be a divisive mixed bag. Lots of Codexers love KOTOR2, but I'm sure plenty would have been willing to give up on some amount of cool Kreia dialog in exchange for a less shitty ending. And I really don't see the combatfag PoE-haters being satisfied at all.
Not just typical codexer, even casual dumbfucks mention the lack of C&C, which is something people have come to expect from Obsidian games and they failed to deliver it.
 

Immortal

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Totally not biased stuff

Hearing you try to give an "unbiased" recount of what it would be like to have a different designer then sawyer is pure comedy. At least I shamelessly accept I'm being a biased dick.

For example, I can almost guarantee that all the boring quests / lore / power curve pacing / itemization was a direct result of Lord Balance - Sawyer.

You fail to mention any of that. As if he didn't have any role in the hwpa dwrpa or balanced to bore items and game pacing.
I mean hell, the only enjoyable area came when someone snuck in on a weekend to squeeze in a "gothic" level into the game without hipster von douche around to veto it or stomp it down with balance.
 

Roguey

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They should have made Avellone project AND narrative lead and have him decide about everything instead of butchering his content

As I keep mentioning, Avellone was the creative director of Obsidian Entertainment. It was his to take, he chose not to. :M
 

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