Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[AwesomeButton]

Josh: A lot of people really hate stronghold content.

Forums: Lies! We love stronghold content!

Josh: Okay. Here's some stronghold content.

Forums: How dare you, kill yourself!

Josh should just stop posting on forums.

Josh should raise his standards about the content he produces. In PoE, not on forums. Posting pics of facebook missions' titles "leak-style" and then admitting all they are is facebook missions feels very close to trolling the playerbase to me.

 

[Excidium II]

Josh: A lot of people really hate stronghold content.

Forums: Lies! We love stronghold content!

Josh: Okay, here's some stronghold content.

Forums: How dare you, please kill yourself ASAP!

Josh should just stop posting on forums.

Maybe people want stronghold content but not this stronghold content.

 

[Roguey]

Balance tyme

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/656202104160186368


https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/656202301317603328


https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/656208384832634880


It's going to be great when I can finally play this in 2016.

Oh wait there's more.

Yeah. Most of the critter immunities are grouped by type (e.g. spirits, vessels), but some specific creatures also get their own immunities (e.g. dragons).

If you hit something with an affliction they're immune to, they'll float an *Immune!* message and it will list it in the log. The immunities are also set up as abilities, so they get added to the corresponding bestiary entry.
...
In either this patch or the last, the duration on Scroll of Paralysis went down. Dragons aren't all immune to Paralyzed, but one of them is.

Hmmm http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ead-pre-expansion.98003/page-167#post-3865276

FLIP FLOP

 

[Excidium II]

Those tiny, tiny changes are a bit spergy. This isn't an mmo where 0.12% increase in DPS means you can push boss to phase 2 before enrage or something.

 

[Sensuki]

I recall reading that they made Paladins way too strong after they buffed them (because previously they were too weak) and there's not much reason to take a Fighter anymore because Engagement is less meaningful (hahaha)

 

[Roguey]

Eh well if people who say "this class feels weak" change their mind because of it then's all well.

I'm going to laugh if oozes and slimes and flying creatures and such are now immune to slicken. That stuck in the craw of a few grogs. Hell, I'll laugh if that's one of the few things that don't get changed.

 

[Bubbles]

Yeah. Most of the critter immunities are grouped by type (e.g. spirits, vessels), but some specific creatures also get their own immunities (e.g. dragons).

If you hit something with an affliction they're immune to, they'll float an *Immune!* message and it will list it in the log. The immunities are also set up as abilities, so they get added to the corresponding bestiary entry.
...
In either this patch or the last, the duration on Scroll of Paralysis went down. Dragons aren't all immune to Paralyzed, but one of them is.

NO. HARD. COUNTERS.

 

[AwesomeButton]

The combat remains total mess where you can't tell what's happening, but it doesn't really matter anyway, because its difficulty is designed towards people who just select all and right click on enemies.

I've never seen such a thing, a game which is mostly combat where the combat system is undocumented and the game doesn't even have convenient breakdowns that tell you the sources of your current deflection or an enemy's deflection. If you want to know how an affliction which lowers a base attribute affects the derived combat stats you have to do the math yourself. When you start doing combat math however, it's a) needlessly complicated because of their base-100 system and b) not really possible until you've unlocked enough beastiary info in order to know your enemies' stats. The data on enemy stats in the so-called strategy guide and in internet sources is outdated by now and I don't trust it.

I think combat should be redesigned to be base-20, with scaling down of accuracy and defence numbers which this entails, and they should introduce artificial pauses of about one second between combatants' actions. When the player is overloaded with information during combat this incentivizes him/her to decide "fuck it, combat is too easy to do calculations anyway, I'll just select all+right click". The result should feel much closer to the IE games' combat and lo, after geniouses of RPG making invented the improved octagonal wheel, they will have discovered that the round wheel was actually better.

I doubt anyone knows how combat functions apart from the people who have coded it and I'm pretty sure no one, including Josh can predict how changes will affect it. They've built a system that's too complex even for them to comprehend, and the adding of immunities which began in TWM looks like a belated attempt to simplify it so they can tell what's going on.

 

[Sensuki]

The original design was aimed at people who do not want to do the math, if you go back and check the interviews and stuff they say stuff like "let the computer do the math for you so you don't have to worry about it" and shit like that. I agree it was a retarded direction to take and simple UI things that should have been in from the beginning have been ignored because apparently they're "too expensive" to implement.

I doubt anyone knows how combat functions apart from the people who have coded it

The fans that studied the system design are the ones that do, and you're right about the second bit where outcomes of changes are kinda unpredictable due to the complexity.

 

[Infinitron]

Select all and left click is less viable on PoE/PotD than it is in most IE battles. I know because I've tried.

AwesomeButton, you really just need to git gud. Most people got over the whole "the combat is a mess, I can't understand what is happening!!11" during the beta already.

 

[AwesomeButton]

The original design was aimed at people who do not want to do the math, if you go back and check the interviews and stuff they say stuff like "let the computer do the math for you so you don't have to worry about it" and shit like that. I agree it was a retarded direction to take and simple UI things that should have been in from the beginning have been ignored because apparently they're "too expensive" to implement.

Just another piece of evidence about how mishandled this project was. Plans changed dramatically during development, resulting in a game that's unfinished in pretty much every aspect.. History has a sense of humor though, and the game is selling so well regardless of all its problems. Apparently it doesn't matter how unfinished your game is, as long as it has pretty graphics and you call it "a spiritual successor" in interviews.

The fans that studied the system design are the ones that do, and you're right about the second bit where outcomes of changes are kinda unpredictable due to the complexity.

There is a really good FAQ uploaded on gamefaqs which sums up players' research. But I fail to understand why should the players research the main game mechanics, instead of the developers publishing a proper strategy guide.

Select all and left click is less viable on PoE/PotD than it is in most IE battles. I know because I've tried.

AwesomeButton, you really just need to git gud. Most of us got over the whole "the combat is a mess, I can't understand what is happening!!11" during the beta already.

I'm currently soloing with a wizard (on PotD, the only difficulty worth your time playing), just to determine if it's possible and if patching up to 2.02 has improved combat. I've only been through the act I areas in the early days after the game's release, before XP was tuned down and with the old base attributes' effects.

I really want to be fair when I say something about the game, and really wish it was better.

Also, I guess you're kidding, but answering anyway - combat difficulty is not what I'm complaining of, and not a problem for anyone with a two-digit IQ. What's difficult is by no means beating the battles, which would have made a "git gud" reply applicable. What's difficult is finding out why exactly do you win or lose and how do combatants' actions contribute to their chances of success increasing or decreasing.

This problem stems partly from the interface, and partly from the hardly documented and overly complex system which disincentivizes players from checking the math themselves. Checking the math yourself is what actually contributes to getting gud more than anything. Playing solo also helps in PoE's case, because it narrows the scope of possible choices in combat and helps isolate the effects of actions. Once I started playing solo, I learned much more about combat mechanics in 5 hours than I had learned for the previous 80-90 hours.

 

[Metal Hurlant]

This is what happens when you design on the run.

 

[Infinitron]

Playing solo also helps in PoE's case, because it narrows the scope of possible choices in combat and helps isolate the effects of actions. Once I started playing solo, I learned much more about combat mechanics in 5 hours than I had learned for the previous 80-90 hours.

That's true. It's also why I keep suggesting that people play Rogues as their first class because it's the class most conducive to teasing out the cause and effect of the game's mechanics:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82...ether-to-give-this-a-second-chance/?p=1733033
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82...ether-to-give-this-a-second-chance/?p=1733061

I really don't understand your problem with the game's interface, though. Could you get an immediate look at an enemy's current defenses in the IE games by mousing over it? In PoE, you can. What more do you need to find out "why exactly do you win or lose and how do combatants' actions contribute to their chances of success increasing or decreasing?" Cast debuff, watch defenses decrease. Attack weak defense, win. It's not rocket science.

This stuff was in the IE games too of course - saving throws, and saving throw decreasing spells like Malison. And none of that stuff was very clear or visible in the UI. But with all the crazy hard counter shit you got in those games, "saving throw manipulation mechanics" tended to fall by the wayside and you could kind of ignore them. In PoE, they have a more central role.

 

[Sensuki]

There is a really good FAQ uploaded on gamefaqs which sums up players' research.

I'll bet it also has some incorrect info, as there was a bit of incorrect stuff floating around on release.

edit: Yep. Action speed section is missing the global recovery modifier

 

[Roguey]

I've never seen such a thing, a game which is mostly combat where the combat system is undocumented and the game doesn't even have convenient breakdowns that tell you the sources of your current deflection or an enemy's deflection.

This is pretty much all the Dragon Ages.

When you start doing combat math however, it's a) needlessly complicated because of their base-100 system

This is funny, because Josh switched to base-100 so dummies could easily understand their chances (1 point = 5% is too much of a leap for certain goons and such, I've seen their confusion with my own eyes).

If you want to see some real crazy math, Dragon Age.

 

[AwesomeButton]

That's true. It's also why I keep suggesting that people play Rogues as their first class because it's the class most conducive to teasing out the cause and effect of the game's mechanics:

I agree, and my first playthrough was with a rogue. I'll finish that when TWM2 arrives.

I really don't understand your problem with the game's interface, though. Could you get an immediate look at an enemy's current defenses in the IE games by mousing over it? In PoE, you can. What more do you need to find out "why exactly do you win or lose and how do combatants' actions contribute to their chances of success increasing or decreasing?" Cast debuff, watch defenses decrease. Attack weak defense, win. It's not rocket science.

Yes, PoE has that advantage over the IE games, it's easy to see the enemy's stats on the screen. But IMO this doesn't tell you enough.

Before I cast a debuff, I'm trying to gauge if it's worth casting. If I'm casting a debuff to deflection for example:
1. What is the enemy's current deflection? I may know that if I have it in the beastiary entry, or I may not know it.
2. By how much will an enemy's deflection decrease from a -2 resolve for example?
3. Also, what will the duration of the debuff be - I can't know in advance because the duration varies depending on whether I've scored a graze/hit/critical with my debuff? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think the strength of debuffs was also affected by the type of hit scored?
4. Then comes the question - in the debuff's duration time (which is an unknown), how many hits will I be able to attempt with my current attack speed (provided it itself doesn't vary in that debuff's timeframe, as a result of enemy actions). So, an unknown which depends on another unknown.
5. What will be the chance of those hits landing? This depends on three unknowns - the pre-debuff enemy deflection, the post-debuff enemy deflection, the chance of me scoring a hit with the debuff.
6. All of the above is not taking into account that I while I know the duration of afflictions once I've caused them, I don't really know my casting speed or attack/recovery speed beyond words like "average", "fast", etc. So it's very tough to imagine how much time will I have left for attacking after I've cast the debuff, and after my casting+recovery time for this spell has passed.

So, how much to-hit chance will I gain from casting this debuff and for how long - this depends on at least three unknowns, and no one in the world can tell you with a satisfactory degree of certainty. Call me stupid, but faced with such complexity, maybe I'm better of with select all + right click. And all this complexity is a problem that the interface can't really assit me with.

This stuff was in the IE games too of course - saving throws, and saving throw decreasing spells like Malison. And none of that stuff was very clear or visible in the UI. But with all the crazy hard counter shit you got in those games, "saving throw manipulation mechanics" tended to fall by the wayside and you could kind of ignore them. In PoE, they have a more central role.

True. Yet the tendency in PoE seems to be for it becoming more IE-like with those immunities they are adding, doesn't it?

edit: Yep. Action speed section is missing the global recovery modifier

Eh, how does that modifier work, and what things apply it?

This is pretty much all the Dragon Ages.

Hmm, yeah, I was wrong. I can think of other examples, each more of an action RPG than the last.

This is funny, because Josh switched to base-100 so dummies could easily understand their chances (1 point = 5% is too much of a leap for certain goons and such, I've seen their confusion with my own eyes).

I guess you're saying this based on a quote somewhere, in that case I'm surprised he would base such a decision solely on player's opinions and not on his own experience. Apparently "players don't know what's best for them" doesn't apply in some cases.

 

[Sensuki]

Eh, how does that modifier work, and what things apply it?

It doesn't change the overall picture, it's just that somewhere along the line a x1.4 (or 1.2? I forget now) recovery modifier is added, so recovery times (and reload times) are slower than predicted by that method. I have a post explaining how it works somewhere from ages ago but yeah I forget now.

 

[Infinitron]

You must have played the IE games in a pretty weird way AwesomeButton, because I'm pretty sure most people didn't need to know this "I will be able to get exactly N attacks in advance" stuff.

I doubt it was that simple to keep track of, either. Between having a fixed duration for spells and having an actual duration timer you can look at, I'm pretty sure the latter is going to come out superior in terms of helping players plan ahead.

 

[Immortal]

Flip Flop Around The Clock

 

[Lhynn]

Its easy to determine the impact it will have in combat, it will add depth to it and will make encounters more varied. I applaud what i see as the first positive change in this crap.
Now separate accuracy grazes and crits, the other retarded thing in it. get rid of recovery slowdown while moving, and rougly triple the time it takes to execute everythang and we may aproach something playable.

 

[AwesomeButton]

You must have played the IE games in a pretty weird way AwesomeButton, because I'm pretty sure most people didn't need to know this "I will be able to get exactly N attacks in advance" stuff.

I doubt it was that simple to keep track of, either. Between having a fixed duration for spells and having an actual duration timer you can look at, I'm pretty sure the latter is going to come out superior in terms of helping players plan ahead.

I thought about this argument too, and indeed, I don't expect to know everything, and didn't expect to know everything in the IE games. Compared to PoE however, there were far less variables to take into account in those games. If I'm not mistaken, you could be hasted, slowed, or preform actions at normal speed and that was it. Plus, your speed was altered far less often than it is in PoE. Also, you could either hit or miss, etc. It was easier to predict outcomes because there was less uncertainty per combat action.

What also made combat easier to follow in the IE games was the longer pauses between individual characters' attacks.

Additionally, and I may just be a "nerd", but I find easier remembering "4d3+1" and calculating it as often as I need, than keeping the range "5-13" memorized, and then checking the damage type and the enemy's DR rating vs that particular damage type... But that could just be me, since I'm used to the dice notation since teenage times.

 

[Sensuki]

That's what I like about the IE combat as well - very easy to understand visually. Actions take the same amount of time to perform unless you're casting a spell, slowed or hasted. Most units also 'pulse' a certain number of times in between actions in the BGs due to the combat idle animation and this can also be used to read when that unit will be 'ready' again. There's also absolutely no retarded UI shit cluttering the screen and spell animations don't horribly obscure the battlefield.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Yeah, the idle animation grows on the user and with time you can anticipate when his next attack will happen, so you don't really need timers like in PoE. More playing the IE games by the devs would have benefited PoE a lot. Although from a purely commercial standpoint, it's already good enough. I wonder if Josh feels satisfied about it, being a veteran developer of the IWDs.

 

[Infinitron]

He probably does.

The truth is that at low levels the "six second pulse" thing you guys have such a hard-on for feels awkward and a lot of people would have complained about it. Go back to BG1 after playing high-level characters for a long time and you might see what I mean. Even more noticeable in 3E where attacks per round go up faster.

Same thing goes for the whole walking/running thing.

 

[AwesomeButton]

He probably does.

The truth is that at low levels the "six second pulse" thing you guys have such a hard-on for feels awkward and a lot of people would have complained about it. Go back to BG1 after playing high-level characters for a long time and you might see what I mean. Even more noticeable in 3E where attacks per round go up faster.

Same thing goes for the whole walking/running thing.

I agree. That was just what I did when I replayed BGI the last time, and it did feel different, because I was used to mid-level characters. The pulse isn't really 6 seconds, but I guess you know that. I think it's all a matter of what you're used to. The pauses between attacks in the IE games don't bother me that much, but if I have to choose between awkward pauses and being overloaded with information, I'd choose the pauses.

I don't mind the running by default that much, but since there is no random delay between characters, their animations start synchronized and this looks awkward to me.