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Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

Justinian

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Oct 21, 2022
Messages
254
It can't go to 8/10 just by fine-tuning the difficulty in order to make PotD easier, trust me.
I don't mean just difficulty, there are a lot of small things that detract from the experience. Basic modern RTS shit like being able to use a common ability with multiple characters at the same time doesn't exist, I have to use it individually for each. Ability bar being only 1/3 the length of the screen, with all my mastered spells getting needlessly condensed into a separate menu I now need to access before using spells I use virtually every battle, formations getting scrambled after conversations, etc.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,029
Pathfinder: Wrath
Still not going to bump up the game by 2 points. The faults are deeply rooted and no amount of surface dusting is going to do miracles like that. 6/10 is too generous too, it's 6/10 if you are counting White March, base game is at best a 4/10. 2 points for good-looking maps and 2 points for some decent encounters, everything else is below average to awful.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
It can't go to 8/10 just by fine-tuning the difficulty in order to make PotD easier, trust me.
I don't mean just difficulty, there are a lot of small things that detract from the experience. Basic modern RTS shit like being able to use a common ability with multiple characters at the same time doesn't exist, I have to use it individually for each. Ability bar being only 1/3 the length of the screen, with all my mastered spells getting needlessly condensed into a separate menu I now need to access before using spells I use virtually every battle, formations getting scrambled after conversations, etc.
I've been playing this for a long time and I'm pretty sure there is something wrong with the ruleset itself. Ironically, after all the talk about balance, it feels like it gives really lopsided chances to one of the sides from the get go. If one side has an advantage it's very unlikely that the other will turn it around.

Example from Deadfire - you cause the Blinded affliction on a group of enemies, say with Chill Fog. Chill Fog targets Fortitude.

So, by beating their Fortitude defense once, you've first reduced their Perception by 5 (which in turn means -5 Accuracy for them, and -10 Reflex), increased their recovery time and secondly, since Blinded also automatically causes Flanked, this reduces their Deflection by 10, reduces their Armor Rating by 1, and they lose another 10 Accuracy. Reducing the armor rating by 1 point may also be just what you need to get an additional bonus - this time to damage (because of the Penetration mechanic). This effect comes on top of the reduction of Deflection, which by nature of the graze/hit/crit rules, also statistically increases the damage that you do - because lower enemy Deflection means higher chance to score a Hit instead of Graze, and a Critical instead of a Hit. You are getting one damage bonus on top of another.

To sum up - you defeat the Fortitude defense *once* to get a total of -15 Accuracy, -10 Reflex, -10 Deflection, -1 Armor Rating, +50% Recovery Time, -50% Range for ranged attacks. This effect lasts a good amount of time if the blinding attack hits. Enough to decide a combat encounter. For the price of one successful Fortitude attack, you are awarded being able to make multiple other, significantly more damaging attacks. So much more damage that defeating the encounter becomes trivial. And when you add that all your abilities are per encounter, and you have no incentive to economize their use...

Synergies like these lead to a nice puzzle-like feel of combat - you have to consider your party's abilities and the enemies' weakest defense in order to determine from which defense to start in order to dismantle their other defenses. In my experience the downside to these synergies is that success in combat tends to snowball very quickly - if things go badly from the start you are almost certainly getting crushed, and you can't turn the battle around. Conversely, if you open up correctly, the encounter becomes "going through the motions" and you likely won't even lose significant amounts of health. You already know the outcome and combat becomes a boring sequence of clicking abilities and targeting enemies, with the result being in the bag. This also leads to the player using the same approach and the same sequence of attacks and abilities in different encounters and against different enemy types, because what counts isn't what the enemy is, but which is its lowest defense. You tend to cycle as many "strategies" when approaching an encounter, as there are defenses.

I know it's less "intellectual", but I like D&D's RNG approach better, because it keeps you more on your toes. Josh's system seems overengineered by comparison, with so many interconnections in order for everything to "matter". The resulting information overload makes outcomes harder to predict instead of easier - with RNG at least you know where the turning point was.

I doubt anyone, even Josh has been able to rigorously test how powerful these cumulative effects really are. From his forum posts, he seems to be taking cues from the audiences' perception when balancing - if players complain about something, he boosts or nerfs it respectively, otherwise it's fine.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 7, 2019
Messages
171
I really enjoyed the guns. It was so much fun starting every fight with a massive alpha strike from almost the whole group. Same as in Outward, the best spell is always gun.
 

Technomancer

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 24, 2018
Messages
1,470
This is also how we get the stat bloat in Owlcat's Pathfinder games where you have to set it below the defaults to get the rules as written (because their core difficulty is tuned for powergamers who would find the enemies with RAW stats completely unchallenging).
Owlcat fucked itself by diverging too much and yet trying to sit on both chairs. Either you do it full on by RAW or you don't bother and do it custom adapting whatever works best in a video game. Pathfinder tabletop only allowed four members in party, not six. You can't exactly balance it right for RAW when you have so much power that you were never intended to have.
 
Last edited:

Justinian

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Oct 21, 2022
Messages
254
It can't go to 8/10 just by fine-tuning the difficulty in order to make PotD easier, trust me.
I don't mean just difficulty, there are a lot of small things that detract from the experience. Basic modern RTS shit like being able to use a common ability with multiple characters at the same time doesn't exist, I have to use it individually for each. Ability bar being only 1/3 the length of the screen, with all my mastered spells getting needlessly condensed into a separate menu I now need to access before using spells I use virtually every battle, formations getting scrambled after conversations, etc.
I've been playing this for a long time and I'm pretty sure there is something wrong with the ruleset itself. Ironically, after all the talk about balance, it feels like it gives really lopsided chances to one of the sides from the get go. If one side has an advantage it's very unlikely that the other will turn it around.

Example from Deadfire - you cause the Blinded affliction on a group of enemies, say with Chill Fog. Chill Fog targets Fortitude.

So, by beating their Fortitude defense once, you've first reduced their Perception by 5 (which in turn means -5 Accuracy for them, and -10 Reflex), increased their recovery time and secondly, since Blinded also automatically causes Flanked, this reduces their Deflection by 10, reduces their Armor Rating by 1, and they lose another 10 Accuracy. Reducing the armor rating by 1 point may also be just what you need to get an additional bonus - this time to damage (because of the Penetration mechanic). This effect comes on top of the reduction of Deflection, which by nature of the graze/hit/crit rules, also statistically increases the damage that you do - because lower enemy Deflection means higher chance to score a Hit instead of Graze, and a Critical instead of a Hit. You are getting one damage bonus on top of another.

To sum up - you defeat the Fortitude defense *once* to get a total of -15 Accuracy, -10 Reflex, -10 Deflection, -1 Armor Rating, +50% Recovery Time, -50% Range for ranged attacks. This effect lasts a good amount of time if the blinding attack hits. Enough to decide a combat encounter. For the price of one successful Fortitude attack, you are awarded being able to make multiple other, significantly more damaging attacks. So much more damage that defeating the encounter becomes trivial. And when you add that all your abilities are per encounter, and you have no incentive to economize their use...

Synergies like these lead to a nice puzzle-like feel of combat - you have to consider your party's abilities and the enemies' weakest defense in order to determine from which defense to start in order to dismantle their other defenses. In my experience the downside to these synergies is that success in combat tends to snowball very quickly - if things go badly from the start you are almost certainly getting crushed, and you can't turn the battle around. Conversely, if you open up correctly, the encounter becomes "going through the motions" and you likely won't even lose significant amounts of health. You already know the outcome and combat becomes a boring sequence of clicking abilities and targeting enemies, with the result being in the bag. This also leads to the player using the same approach and the same sequence of attacks and abilities in different encounters and against different enemy types, because what counts isn't what the enemy is, but which is its lowest defense. You tend to cycle as many "strategies" when approaching an encounter, as there are defenses.

I know it's less "intellectual", but I like D&D's RNG approach better, because it keeps you more on your toes. Josh's system seems overengineered by comparison, with so many interconnections in order for everything to "matter". The resulting information overload makes outcomes harder to predict instead of easier - with RNG at least you know where the turning point was.

I doubt anyone, even Josh has been able to rigorously test how powerful these cumulative effects really are. From his forum posts, he seems to be taking cues from the audiences' perception when balancing - if players complain about something, he boosts or nerfs it respectively, otherwise it's fine.
i think removing grazes, or greatly increasing the default chance to miss would bring it more in like with D&D without changing much of the underlying system. They could even leave it as is for damage calculations but adjust it for inflicting stat effects.

I would also reduce the late game HP bloat, like the IE games did. Past a certain level (12?) you'd barely get any more HP every level. I'm fine with early decisions determining the outcome of most encounters as long as the encounters quickly lead to victory or reload.
 

AwesomeButton

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removing grazes
One of the first mods I experimented with, it worked fine,the problem was I was too lazy to update all the abilities and items, etc. that have something to do with grazes.

I'm fine with early decisions determining the outcome of most encounters as long as the encounters quickly lead to victory or reload.
Yeah, the problem with the current state of things is that it's rarely quick if you're winning. If you're losing, then it's fast because you are always free to reload.
 

BruceVC

Magister
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
8,061
Location
South Africa, Cape Town
36 hours in and its still lots of fun

My party is level 12 and I use the skull quest rating system to decide if Im ready for a quest and its generally accurate. I decided to do the Bekarna's Folly after robbing from Arkemyr

And I ended up having one of the hardest and most exciting battles with the foul and arrogant lich Concelhaut, he slaughtered me the first 2 times but then I changed my strategy. I kept my party at the bottom of the stairs as you enter the roof of the observatory but sent Eder in solo mode to draw aggression and run away back to the rest of my companions

That worked and I was able to separate Concelhaut allies and defeat them all in 2 separate battles , it was still really hard but I was victorious

I love the strategic nature of these types of hard battles in party based isometric RPG. I enjoy how literally each turn matters and how you assign combat tasks to your party and then you wait to see the results :incline:
 

BruceVC

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Jul 25, 2011
Messages
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Location
South Africa, Cape Town
Im 76 hours into Deadfire and loving it

I decided to change my approach to completing the game, when I got near the end with the journey to Ukaizo and who should I align with around factions for the journey I was only level 15-16. So I decided to complete all the DLC and get my party to level 20 before heading for Ukaizo

Great idea and it allowed me some epic end boss battles that demonstrate for me the best part of the game, the strategic nature of tough battles

And for most of the DLC I couldn't defeat the end boss but then I came back later on level 20 and I have been successful on every end boss so far
I loved all the DLC with my favorite probably being the Crucible arena fights and I really enjoyed the Beast of Winter. Neriscyrlas was my hardest fight and particularly because of Llengrath's Safeguard but once I had access to Arcane Cleanser the battle became much more manageable

But my favorite spells is Concelhaut's Crushing Doom, nothing better that seeing enemies getting smashed by the hammer

I also have Concelhaut and Nemnok as pets, Nemnoks comments are some of the funniest I have ever heard in any game :-D

Now I still need to complete the final battle with Porokoa who I haven't been able to defeat but now Im level 20 I should be victorious and I need some new crocodile skin shoes and a handbag

And then I will complete the main quest and the journey to Ukaizo

But overall, fantastic and enthralling party based RPG. Obsidian created a gem with this one
 

BruceVC

Magister
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Jul 25, 2011
Messages
8,061
Location
South Africa, Cape Town
I completed Deadfire, it gets a solid 80/100 on the globally popular " BruceVC game rating system" and I know people are thinking " thats a very high score for this highly respected game rating system " and I will summarize why

But I had a surprising end to the game, I was expecting an epic and final battle at Ukaizo like with Thaos and PoE1 and as I mentioned I prepared for this by getting my party to level 20. But because I had released the Water Dragon in a previous quest the Ukaizo guardian was automatically defeated by the Water Dragon....so no final epic battle, I was disappointed :-D

But in summary what I loved about the game and some of this I have already mentioned in previous posts

  • Obsidian successfully created a new IP with lore and mechanics that works, this is a feat in itself and it should be recognized if you think about the popularity of D&D or Elder Scrolls
  • The strategic nature of combat for hard battles is fantastic, its one of the main reasons why I play party based RPG
  • The overall narrative and lore of the world is very thought provoking and you really end up thinking about who you should align with and what will the outcome be. But I cannot stress enough how important the Enhanced User Interface mod is so you become familiar with the lore and understand it. I used it a lot
  • Deadfire is as close to open world as you can get with this type of game. You can sail to almost any island you want, explore any dungeon you want and face the consequences...brilliant risk vs reward outcomes and you feel motivated to explore and find new islands
  • I enjoyed the crafting and how you can customize your character build and especially the abilities and spells at higher levels, they make a significant difference in combat
  • Deadfire also provided some uncommon but appreciated features like the sailing mechanic and how naval combat works. I ended up just doing normal combat on the decks of the ships but there was the other option
So excellent game and Im really disappointed there wont be a PoE3
 

Falksi

Arcane
Joined
Feb 14, 2017
Messages
10,593
Location
Nottingham
BruceVC you're tempting me to go back and try the original for one last 3rd time before jumping into Deadfire.

Deadfire's been sat in my library for some time now, but I never quite finished the first game. First playthrough was good-ish, a 7/10 experience, but then it bugged out big time around 3/4s of the way through, and so I scrapped it off. Second playthrough through was pretty dire, the alternative C&C options available were just lame. So I swat it off after around 10-15 hours.

But, after loving a BG2 playthrough and having a few hours of fun with Icewind Dale (which I've now dropped, as its padding has worn me out) I'm around 15 hours into Tyranny and having a good-ish time there too (lame as fuck first few hours, but picking up now and having lots of fun with the spells). So I'm tempted to stay on a RtwP kick whilst my tolerance levels are high, and run through the first Pillars game before jumping into TB Deadfire.
 

BruceVC

Magister
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
8,061
Location
South Africa, Cape Town
BruceVC you're tempting me to go back and try the original for one last 3rd time before jumping into Deadfire.

Deadfire's been sat in my library for some time now, but I never quite finished the first game. First playthrough was good-ish, a 7/10 experience, but then it bugged out big time around 3/4s of the way through, and so I scrapped it off. Second playthrough through was pretty dire, the alternative C&C options available were just lame. So I swat it off after around 10-15 hours.

But, after loving a BG2 playthrough and having a few hours of fun with Icewind Dale (which I've now dropped, as its padding has worn me out) I'm around 15 hours into Tyranny and having a good-ish time there too (lame as fuck first few hours, but picking up now and having lots of fun with the spells). So I'm tempted to stay on a RtwP kick whilst my tolerance levels are high, and run through the first Pillars game before jumping into TB Deadfire.
For me PoE2 was an improvement on almost every level to Poe1 and I enjoyed PoE1

For example healing is "normal" and there is no health vs endurance mechanic so you can cast healing spells during combat which matters to me

BG2 ToB is still my favorite RPG of all time so if you enjoyed that you must try PoE2 but don't forget to load that Enhanced User Interface mod because it makes a big difference in remembering and understanding the lore and how that influences the narrative which is really exciting once you understand what is happening and how the various gods are involved. Because a big part of the fun with the narrative is making the right choices when presented with options
 

Riddler

Arcane
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Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
2,355
Bubbles In Memoria
It can't go to 8/10 just by fine-tuning the difficulty in order to make PotD easier, trust me.
I don't mean just difficulty, there are a lot of small things that detract from the experience. Basic modern RTS shit like being able to use a common ability with multiple characters at the same time doesn't exist, I have to use it individually for each. Ability bar being only 1/3 the length of the screen, with all my mastered spells getting needlessly condensed into a separate menu I now need to access before using spells I use virtually every battle, formations getting scrambled after conversations, etc.
I've been playing this for a long time and I'm pretty sure there is something wrong with the ruleset itself. Ironically, after all the talk about balance, it feels like it gives really lopsided chances to one of the sides from the get go. If one side has an advantage it's very unlikely that the other will turn it around.

Example from Deadfire - you cause the Blinded affliction on a group of enemies, say with Chill Fog. Chill Fog targets Fortitude.

So, by beating their Fortitude defense once, you've first reduced their Perception by 5 (which in turn means -5 Accuracy for them, and -10 Reflex), increased their recovery time and secondly, since Blinded also automatically causes Flanked, this reduces their Deflection by 10, reduces their Armor Rating by 1, and they lose another 10 Accuracy. Reducing the armor rating by 1 point may also be just what you need to get an additional bonus - this time to damage (because of the Penetration mechanic). This effect comes on top of the reduction of Deflection, which by nature of the graze/hit/crit rules, also statistically increases the damage that you do - because lower enemy Deflection means higher chance to score a Hit instead of Graze, and a Critical instead of a Hit. You are getting one damage bonus on top of another.

To sum up - you defeat the Fortitude defense *once* to get a total of -15 Accuracy, -10 Reflex, -10 Deflection, -1 Armor Rating, +50% Recovery Time, -50% Range for ranged attacks. This effect lasts a good amount of time if the blinding attack hits. Enough to decide a combat encounter. For the price of one successful Fortitude attack, you are awarded being able to make multiple other, significantly more damaging attacks. So much more damage that defeating the encounter becomes trivial. And when you add that all your abilities are per encounter, and you have no incentive to economize their use...

Synergies like these lead to a nice puzzle-like feel of combat - you have to consider your party's abilities and the enemies' weakest defense in order to determine from which defense to start in order to dismantle their other defenses. In my experience the downside to these synergies is that success in combat tends to snowball very quickly - if things go badly from the start you are almost certainly getting crushed, and you can't turn the battle around. Conversely, if you open up correctly, the encounter becomes "going through the motions" and you likely won't even lose significant amounts of health. You already know the outcome and combat becomes a boring sequence of clicking abilities and targeting enemies, with the result being in the bag. This also leads to the player using the same approach and the same sequence of attacks and abilities in different encounters and against different enemy types, because what counts isn't what the enemy is, but which is its lowest defense. You tend to cycle as many "strategies" when approaching an encounter, as there are defenses.

I know it's less "intellectual", but I like D&D's RNG approach better, because it keeps you more on your toes. Josh's system seems overengineered by comparison, with so many interconnections in order for everything to "matter". The resulting information overload makes outcomes harder to predict instead of easier - with RNG at least you know where the turning point was.

I doubt anyone, even Josh has been able to rigorously test how powerful these cumulative effects really are. From his forum posts, he seems to be taking cues from the audiences' perception when balancing - if players complain about something, he boosts or nerfs it respectively, otherwise it's fine.
Another big issue (not just with this game) is that the enemies don't hit back. They don't use chill fog against you, they don't dispel your aoe spells, they don't actively use immunity spells (they just have innate immunities), etc.

This in combination with the interconnected determinism you note leads to boring and predictable gameplay where you at best cycle a few different strategies but often just use the hammer to beat your plugs into whatever hole.

The same shit goes for the many turn based rpgs (BG3 and Rogue trader most recently) or RtwP games like the Pathfinder games.

You quickly solve the combat puzzle and then there is no variety or challenge, which often is exacerbated by slow game speed (particularly in turnbased games).

The effects of actions being deterministic can be ok if the action space and the actual choices of the AI isn't (or it's actually mechanically challening to perform the deterministic action like in a platformer or shooter). More realistically though, it just leads to game journalist difficulty.
 

Quillon

Arcane
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
5,240
Health + Endurance was the best thing PoE1 introduced, it's a tragedy it's not present in the sequel.

removed cos it was apparently too complex for some cRPG players then we saw a very similar mechanic realized for multiple attributes in a big budget mass market akshun gaym: RDR2 lol
 

AwesomeButton

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The same shit goes for the many turn based rpgs (BG3 and Rogue trader most recently) or RtwP games like the Pathfinder games.
Very much so, to the point that I don't see a reason to play them any more. They just don't bring anyhting new to make them worth playing.
 

BruceVC

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The same shit goes for the many turn based rpgs (BG3 and Rogue trader most recently) or RtwP games like the Pathfinder games.
Very much so, to the point that I don't see a reason to play them any more. They just don't bring anyhting new to make them worth playing.
I hear this a lot and it seems to be a valid criticism but what do you mean by something new? Can you give examples of what you want to see

The reason I ask is the archetype design of RPG is a tried and tested fun formulae which typically means

  • you create a character with certain abilities
  • you progress on a story and advance in levels
  • you complete tasks
  • you fight enemies and make choices in the game
Im simplifying design but Im sure you know what I mean?
 

Lacrymas

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Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,029
Pathfinder: Wrath
Forget tanks exist and you are all set. Seriously, though, you don't need tanks in most RPGs, I don't know why people insist on having that MMO-derived concept in their parties.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
how can i make a 2 handed or dual wield char as a tank in POE?
Easy. Un-ignore me first.

what do you mean by something new?
The exploration of Underrail, and the feeling I'm getting lost in its web of areas was something if not new then something I have not experienced in a long time. The tight action economy of Age of Decadence, or Battle Brothers, to cite a party-based title (still haven't tried Dungeon Rats) also.

In terms of quest design and structure, things get a little more subjective. Personally, and I underscore it's personally, I'm tired of variations on the "subversion of classical tropes" theme, and I'm yearning for a more "straightforward" plot, more frounded in the traditional, "folklore" understanding of the roles of heroes and chaotic "evil" forces. I want to play an Aragorn, a shining paladin, with no strings attached. I have my explanation of why there is a shortage of such stories in RPGs, but I won't go into it here. Just saying, there is nothing bad about Icewind Dale's simplistic story structure, if executed with talent and style. It's weird that I have to go so far back to play something with this qualities though.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
18,029
Pathfinder: Wrath
The explanation is a) we've had those and we grew bored of them and b) vidya gaem writers want to think of themselves as real writers and *try* to write nuanced characters and stories. It doesn't work out, but they do indeed try.
 

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