Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[razvedchiki]

Forget tanks exist and you are all set. Seriously, though, you don't need tanks in most RPGs, I don't know why people insist on having that MMO-derived concept in their parties.

maybe with a custom 6 merc party, customised to the gills to alpha strike. forgot to write that this is for potd and its hordes of mobs.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Someone tell him that all he needs is two fighters with stacked DR, high health pools, and a priest to buff their defences additionally.

 

[BruceVC]

Forget tanks exist and you are all set. Seriously, though, you don't need tanks in most RPGs, I don't know why people insist on having that MMO-derived concept in their parties.

Maybe we have a different definition of a Tank and its purpose

For me a Tank draws aggro and initial attacks and I use them in every party based RPG in the same way with more or less the same classes. In both PoE I used my fighter, paladin and barbarian as tanks

But my cipher waited to attack until enemies were engaged and then my wizard and cleric cast spells and buffs from a distance. Why do you say a tank role is redundant, what do you mean by that? How would you substitute the strategy I described without a tank role?

 

[Lacrymas]

There is no such thing as "aggro" in RPGs, that's in MMOs.

 

[Axioms]

Forget tanks exist and you are all set. Seriously, though, you don't need tanks in most RPGs, I don't know why people insist on having that MMO-derived concept in their parties.

Maybe we have a different definition of a Tank and its purpose

For me a Tank draws aggro and initial attacks and I use them in every party based RPG in the same way with more or less the same classes. In both PoE I used my fighter, paladin and barbarian as tanks

But my cipher waited to attack until enemies were engaged and then my wizard and cleric cast spells and buffs from a distance. Why do you say a tank role is redundant, what do you mean by that? How would you substitute the strategy I described without a tank role?

"Tanks" and "Taunts/Aggro" are mechanics that derive from MUDs, which are the precursor to MMOs. They exist because in MUDs there is no concept of space or formation or positioning. So it was necessary to have the mechanic of "aggro" to keep enemies off of your squishy units since you couldn't simply position them far away or block enemies positionally. Tabletop RPGs however are more likely to use stuff like trips, attacks of opportunity, or zone of control/action to mitigate backline diving.

CPRGs, especially DnD inspired ones will usually avoid using actual "Taunts" or aggro mechanics.

 

[BruceVC]

Forget tanks exist and you are all set. Seriously, though, you don't need tanks in most RPGs, I don't know why people insist on having that MMO-derived concept in their parties.

Maybe we have a different definition of a Tank and its purpose

For me a Tank draws aggro and initial attacks and I use them in every party based RPG in the same way with more or less the same classes. In both PoE I used my fighter, paladin and barbarian as tanks

But my cipher waited to attack until enemies were engaged and then my wizard and cleric cast spells and buffs from a distance. Why do you say a tank role is redundant, what do you mean by that? How would you substitute the strategy I described without a tank role?

"Tanks" and "Taunts/Aggro" are mechanics that derive from MUDs, which are the precursor to MMOs. They exist because in MUDs there is no concept of space or formation or positioning. So it was necessary to have the mechanic of "aggro" to keep enemies off of your squishy units since you couldn't simply position them far away or block enemies positionally. Tabletop RPGs however are more likely to use stuff like trips, attacks of opportunity, or zone of control/action to mitigate backline diving.

CPRGs, especially DnD inspired ones will usually avoid using actual "Taunts" or aggro mechanics.

Interesting, so if you take a game like PoE and your party runs into a room and immediately gets attacked by enemies but they attack the people in the front who happen to my fighters what do we call that?

And how is that different strategically to using words like aggro or tanks because the combat outcome seems exactly the same?

 

[Lacrymas]

What happens if they attack the wizard instead? Is he the "tank" now? Whoever gets attacked is the tank? In PnP, no self-respecting DM will go along with the MMO bullshit and the enemies can and will gleefully ignore heavily-armored characters who barely do any dmg.

 

[BruceVC]

What happens if they attack the wizard instead? Is he the "tank" now? Whoever gets attacked is the tank? In PnP, no self-respecting DM will go along with the MMO bullshit and the enemies can and will gleefully ignore heavily-armored characters who barely do any dmg.

Okay, I see what you saying. I never really noticed my strategy changing or paid attention to how enemies target my party because my battles were more or less the same

Xoti and Aloth stayed back and the other 4 party members did most of the fighting but there were times where enemies came from the back and attacked Xoti and Aloth or enemies attacked from the side and ignored my fighters

I understand what you saying is technically correct, there aren't really tanks or aggro anymore

Im saying my combat strategy still used the tank concept as much as I could implement it

 

[AwesomeButton]

BruceVC I think you should try the game in TB and with some mods installed. From what you're saying here I think you might like it even better.

I've been thinking about doing a test playthrough with a full wizard party. Summons, summoned weapons, buffs, only from wizard spells. I wonder how far I could get on upscaled TB Veteran, with the Balance Polishing mod...

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Wizard team might be fun Deadfire where spells refresh per-encounter. In PoE1 I think you'd jump out of the window from all the micro before reaching Defiance Bay.

 

[Lt Broccoli]

As an Infinity Engine fan, I spent many weeks on Pillars of Eternity and I tried hard to like it...but failed to do so. By the time I got to the Elm's Reach area I worked out why... Its an odd game with a world concept that is dysjunctured in how it depicts a fantasy world. It gets in the way of immersion. The game strengthens culture over race. Dwarves and Orlans (Hobbits) and Elves and Humans share the same culture in the same geographic area yet none of these races can interbreed with each other. They can have sex but no children are formed. So as a result neither are there any half-breeds like 'half-elves' that might blend their differences and help us understand their shared culture. Oddly, despite blatant racial distinctions, ideas of racial prejudice are effectively removed from the game and cultural tension somehow is supposed to fill this gap but it strikes me as utterly unsatisfying. The cultures that do exist seem based more on politics than on anything else that binds a people and cultures/regions seem to not be prejudiced enough against each other to justify their own separateness and existence. It is a half-baked idea that takes cues on our modern multicultural democratic societies and less on reality of an ancient world that would be highly disconnected with no modern communications to 'globalise' them. The combat is ok and interesting to some degree however over time I found I based most of my combat choices on repetition and monster weakness which leads to a tedium of sorts. Lastly, I had a major bug with the game slowing and stuttering, particularly in the Caed Nua area. A few times the game would inadvertently crash. I tried some fixes on the boards but to no avail. The game does have beautiful graphics and backgrounds with a stellar soundtrack. The voice acting is decent and the homage to the Infinity engine games is good to see. This makes it even more of a travesty to have to drop it from my 'must play' list. Unfortunately, for these reasons I'm not interested in trying Deadfire or any other game based in this game universe.

 

[BruceVC]

As an Infinity Engine fan, I spent many weeks on Pillars of Eternity and I tried hard to like it...but failed to do so. By the time I got to the Elm's Reach area I worked out why... Its an odd game with a world concept that is dysjunctured in how it depicts a fantasy world. It gets in the way of immersion. The game strengthens culture over race. Dwarves and Orlans (Hobbits) and Elves and Humans share the same culture in the same geographic area yet none of these races can interbreed with each other. They can have sex but no children are formed. So as a result neither are there any half-breeds like 'half-elves' that might blend their differences and help us understand their shared culture. Oddly, despite blatant racial distinctions, ideas of racial prejudice are effectively removed from the game and cultural tension somehow is supposed to fill this gap but it strikes me as utterly unsatisfying. The cultures that do exist seem based more on politics than on anything else that binds a people and cultures/regions seem to not be prejudiced enough against each other to justify their own separateness and existence. It is a half-baked idea that takes cues on our modern multicultural democratic societies and less on reality of an ancient world that would be highly disconnected with no modern communications to 'globalise' them. The combat is ok and interesting to some degree however over time I found I based most of my combat choices on repetition and monster weakness which leads to a tedium of sorts. Lastly, I had a major bug with the game slowing and stuttering, particularly in the Caed Nua area. A few times the game would inadvertently crash. I tried some fixes on the boards but to no avail. The game does have beautiful graphics and backgrounds with a stellar soundtrack. The voice acting is decent and the homage to the Infinity engine games is good to see. This makes it even more of a travesty to have to drop it from my 'must play' list. Unfortunately, for these reasons I'm not interested in trying Deadfire or any other game based in this game universe.

I respect your opinion but Im disappointed that you didnt enjoy PoE. But Im sure I remember real racial tensions and prejudice based on history of wars? I might be wrong but Im sure its part of the lore?

But maybe try PoE2, its much better than PoE1

 

[Lacrymas]

Another bonkers take. The lack of racism broke my immersion.

 

[Haplo]

What happens if they attack the wizard instead? Is he the "tank" now? Whoever gets attacked is the tank? In PnP, no self-respecting DM will go along with the MMO bullshit and the enemies can and will gleefully ignore heavily-armored characters who barely do any dmg.

Okay, I see what you saying. I never really noticed my strategy changing or paid attention to how enemies target my party because my battles were more or less the same

Xoti and Aloth stayed back and the other 4 party members did most of the fighting but there were times where enemies came from the back and attacked Xoti and Aloth or enemies attacked from the side and ignored my fighters

I understand what you saying is technically correct, there aren't really tanks or aggro anymore

Im saying my combat strategy still used the tank concept as much as I could implement it

Sure there's tanking in PoE2. I mean the game even has Engagement slots (of which tanks have much more) AND a subclass that is largely focussed on tanking and punishing enemies who'd try to disengage him.

The game systems are flexible, so you can certainly play without one. However having a solid, tanky character does make the combat more predictable and typically, much safer.

 

[BruceVC]

What happens if they attack the wizard instead? Is he the "tank" now? Whoever gets attacked is the tank? In PnP, no self-respecting DM will go along with the MMO bullshit and the enemies can and will gleefully ignore heavily-armored characters who barely do any dmg.

Okay, I see what you saying. I never really noticed my strategy changing or paid attention to how enemies target my party because my battles were more or less the same

Xoti and Aloth stayed back and the other 4 party members did most of the fighting but there were times where enemies came from the back and attacked Xoti and Aloth or enemies attacked from the side and ignored my fighters

I understand what you saying is technically correct, there aren't really tanks or aggro anymore

Im saying my combat strategy still used the tank concept as much as I could implement it

Sure there's tanking in PoE2. I mean the game even has Engagement slots (of which tanks have much more) AND a subclass that is largely focussed on tanking and punishing enemies who'd try to disengage him.

The game systems are flexible, so you can certainly play without one. However having a solid, tanky character does make the combat more predictable and typically, much safer.

Yes that has been my experience with both PoE games but most of you guys are experts on PoE and its mechanics so you have deeper understanding of these things

This was the first time I played both games and I am more a casual gamer and I tend to keep my understanding simple so I adopted a " tank " strategy in every battle and it worked for me. I particularly liked using Serafens Dragon Leap, I made him a barbarian, to attract enemies and appear in the middle of a group during combat

The games did an excellent job at allowing you to customize your party and combat strategies

 

[Sannom]

They can have sex but no children are formed. So as a result neither are there any half-breeds like 'half-elves' that might blend their differences and help us understand their shared culture. Oddly, despite blatant racial distinctions, ideas of racial prejudice are effectively removed from the game and cultural tension somehow is supposed to fill this gap but it strikes me as utterly unsatisfying.

I disagree. There is definitely some racist/speciest bias behind the plot to have Vela turned into soul soup for the Three-Tusks Stelgaer leader. It's mostly because he wants his bloodline to remain at the head of the tribe, but making sure that it doesn't go to an Orlan outsider is absolutely part of the equation.

 

[Lt Broccoli]

They can have sex but no children are formed. So as a result neither are there any half-breeds like 'half-elves' that might blend their differences and help us understand their shared culture. Oddly, despite blatant racial distinctions, ideas of racial prejudice are effectively removed from the game and cultural tension somehow is supposed to fill this gap but it strikes me as utterly unsatisfying.

I disagree. There is definitely some racist/speciest bias behind the plot to have Vela turned into soul soup for the Three-Tusks Stelgaer leader. It's mostly because he wants his bloodline to remain at the head of the tribe, but making sure that it doesn't go to an Orlan outsider is absolutely part of the equation.

There may be some racist bias there as 'flavour' to some questlines, but the developer decidedly overemphasizes culture over race in the game. They list this directly in their PoE Collector's Edition Guide, page 48 (you can find it in the GOG download) - excerpt below:

Races and cultures do not directly overlap. While there are some cultures that are dominated by a particular race, most of the major cultures in and around the Dyrwood have heterogeneous mixtures of races. In most
cases, this means that race is less of a determining factor in identification than culture. Unless a race is intentionally segregated from other cultures, members will tend to identify as citizens of their home culture, not with a racially homogenous culture in foreign lands. For example, an aumaua who grows up in the Vailian Republics will probably identify as Vailian, not Rauatai (an almost entirely aumaua culture to the northeast). The cultures of Eora are historically peopled by a mixture of diverse racial backgrounds. This means that characters cannot be measured against any predetermined notions about dwarves, elves, or other familiar figures. A dwarf from the Vailian Republic, for example, might have more in common with a Vailian elf than he or she would with a dwarf of the Deadfire Archipelago. While creating a character, and encountering others along the way, it is important to consider the innate complexities of personal history and heritage.

Whether this idea works is up to you to decide.

 

[Lacrymas]

Seems logical to me.

 

[Quillon]

A dwarf from the Vailian Republic, for example, might have more in common with a Vailian elf than he or she would with a dwarf of the Deadfire Archipelago.

how dare they suggest there are only 2 genders!? reeeeeee

 

[Technomancer]

There is no such thing as "aggro" in RPGs, that's in MMOs.

DAO had actual aggro, each ability drawing threat on characters. Or dropping it. Even had cooldown MMO like abilities or AoE aggro skills.

In Pillars bots are coded to switch targets and attack the least protected party members, usually its your squishy backline that wears clothing so there would be no armor recovery penalty. Hostile bots usually try to disengage from hitting fat tanks and beeline for the casters making tanks somewhat useless because they almost have no tools to prevent it from happening since there is no aggro like in MMOs, you can't just force monster to fight by making it mad or smth. So I found tanks only to be useful for tanking bosses or blocking passages to physically prevent monsters from reaching the backline (they try anyway eating disengagement hits).

In PoE2 I believe there was at least some attempt to improve threat of disengaging. Vaguely recall fighter having a talent that would turn disengagement hit particularly nasty.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

1. Play Eder as single class fighter to get access to disengament talent quickly into the game.
2. Start combat, tab out to Porn Hub and go masturbate while your party cleans u

 

[Lyric Suite]

So, today i started to develop a desire to give this thing another go. Last one didn't end well, but that was in part because Elden Ring came out in the middle of it and the game wasn't strong enough for me to resist that pull.

This time, i think i'm not gonna bother with paladin. This game has subverted the class to the point it basically destroyed the concept. I thought i had come up with a decent concept but i found myself unable to roleplay it.

Right now i'm pondering if i should just make a Conan like character the way Robert E. Howard wrote him. Just Nietzschen to the core to meet the nihilist tone of this game. Are Barbarians any good?

 

[BlackAdderBG]

Pillars is terrible for larping and decent for combatfags.

Barbarians I find pretty weak for the standard expected fantasy of big reckless damage. The Barbarians in Pathfinder are more fitting for that as you can oneshot pretty much all enemies but bosses, while in Pillars they are a worse Fighter. Their shtick is dealing AoE damage with shouts that debuff enemies and that is just too weak. Playing Barbarian is just weaker Fighter for defense (and even offence as Fighters can be both), weaker Paladin for buffs/debuffs and weaker Rouge for damage all in one. Ofc this is about PotD difficulty and anything under that doesn't matter much.

 

[Shaki]

Pillars is terrible for larping and decent for combatfags.

Pillars 2 is relatively decent for combatfaggotry with the addition of multiclassing, massive improvements to itemization and turn based mode, + it also has some decent exploration. But first one sucks literally at everything.

 

[ferratilis]

If he thought paladin class has been subverted "to the point it basically destroyed the concept," I wonder how he'll wrap his head around intelligence being essential on a barb?