Preview Pillars of Eternity: The White March Gameplay Footage at Gamescom 2015

[Rake]

Tony Evans (Who was also a designer/writer on KOTOR II)

Though in Retrospect you probably meant only Kevin Saunders and George Ziets. Question here though Kevin Saunders isn't a big writer either AFAIK (Amazing Project Director/producer though). So, you're pretty much left with George Ziets for that argument (aside from Avellone), no?

I consider Ziets the main reason MotB turned as it did, same as Avellone with Torment. Also the two best companions were written by Avellone, and i'm willing to cut Saunders his cut because a great Project Director/Lead designer is essencial to a game, if not for the content itself then for managing the team so it can implement the creative leads vision. Problem is, none of these 3 persons are at Obsidian any more.

 

[Duraframe300]

I consider Ziets the main reason MotB turned as it did, same as Avellone with Torment. Also the two best companions were written by Avellone, and i'm willing to cut Saunders his cut because a great Project Director/Lead designer is essencial to a game, if not for the content itself then for managing the team so it can implement the creative leads vision. Problem is, none of these 3 persons are at Obsidian any more.

PS:T was an exception with regards of the influence of one persons writing. Multiple times mentioned as such afterwards by the designers themselves and Avellone always telling how much he damaged his health.

With that in mind how do you explain KOTOR II? Ziets wasn't on that. Other writers went on to help write Diablo 3.

Funny, huh?

 

[Duraframe300]

Also reposting my edit

And George Ziets has Dungeon Siege III on his resumee, which while I like it very very much isn't that revered on writing either. And Avellone wrote NWN2's companions.

Man, its like people fuck up sometimes.

 

[Duraframe300]

BTW: While I do disagree with the general statement I'm just messing around here a bit.

It's certainly true that the overall quality of Obsidian's writing has taken a dive (Not in the least with Avellone's recent departure just in his role as a creative overseer)

 

[Dorateen]

All this spells good news for those players who hold the Icewind Dale/Storm of Zehir style of role-playing in higher regard.

 

[Roguey]

MotB strenghts were it's writing, plot, quest structure.

What do you particularly hate about Ashenwood and the Academy?

Me, I didn't like how the former suffered from the same amateur encounter trigger/spawn point issue the OC did, and the latter had a few too many epic level gnolls.

 

[Rake]

With that in mind how do you explain KOTOR II? Ziets wasn't on that.

Avellone.

BTW: While I do disagree with the general statement

What, that Obsidian no longer can make these "better writers in the industry" storyfag games? All evidence points that way, and as you said yourself, in their last 3-4 games their writing has taken a dive. I hope they reverse that trend, but i wouldn't hold my breath.

All this spells good news for those players who hold the Icewind Dale/Storm of Zehir style of role-playing in higher regard.

Not with Sawyer in charge of the combat systems, combatfag.

What do you particularly hate about Ashenwood and the Academy?

Me, I didn't like how the former suffered from the same amateur encounter trigger/spawn point issue the OC did, and the latter had a few too many epic level gnolls.

Narrative wise? Nothing wrong in particular. But as PoE shows, Eric is great as a designer, not so good as a creative lead responsible for the overal game.
As for your complaints, agai as PoE shows everyone at Obsidian fails miserably at encounter design, and that trend goes back to IWD days

 

[Duraframe300]

All evidence points that way, and as you said yourself, in their last 3-4 games their writing has taken a dive. I hope they reverse that trend, but i wouldn't hold my breath.

Didn't say that. I said its taken a dive, but thats because of changes to the team. But I would never, ever sign that statement.

Because it implies that Obsidian's writing has been consistenly good before and thats just lol, no.

 

[Duraframe300]

as PoE shows, Eric is great as a designer, not so good as a creative lead responsible for the overal game.

And here's a question I have. Can Eric really be judged forever on one game (Where he had to split his time with another game)?

Should we judge Chris by Descent to Undermountain for example?

 

[Dorateen]

Not with Sawyer in charge of the combat systems, combatfag.

Combat systems and encounter design is only half the equation. And the point that story-centric biodrones will never grasp, is the other half is what the player brings to the table in order to make a statisfactory role-playing experience. Fortunately, PoE has (so far) provided at least more player-driven content than developer manufactured emotional engagement.

 

[hemtae]

You misunderstood. MotB and KotOR 2 are by far the best games Obsidian created and better than anything CDPR has done. But the persons responsible for these games no longer work at Obsidian, and Obsidian themselves cannot reach that pinacle of writing again. The current writers at Obsidian had produced mediocre effords like New Vegas and PoE. I have no reason to believe they are capable of making another MotB.

I'm legitimately curious why you're slamming New Vegas when the consensus (both here and elsewhere as far as I can tell) is that it was pretty good in the writing department. Not only that, but with John Gonzalez leaving it would also fit the "Obsidian can't make a good story driven game due to personnel loss" narrative that you're trying to construct.

 

[Gozma]

Who did all the writing for Dead Money?

Although I gotta say on that one the guys that voice acted the companions and Elijah pulled a shit ton of weight. If they'd been saddled with Standard Bethesda Voice Acting like the OC it would have been a disaster with the same writing. There were a lot of suspect lines, especially with Dog/God, that took great voice acting to fish out of the abyss.

 

[Duraframe300]

Who did all the writing for Dead Money?

Although I gotta say on that one the guys that voice acted the companions and Elijah pulled a shit ton of weight. If they'd been saddled with Standard Bethesda Voice Acting like the OC it would have been a disaster with the same writing.

Avellone.

 

[Rake]

I'm legitimately curious why you're slamming New Vegas when the consensus (both here and elsewhere as far as I can tell) is that it was pretty good in the writing department. Not only that, but with John Gonzalez leaving it would also fit the "Obsidian can't make a good story driven game due to personnel loss" narrative that you're trying to construct.

Because i didn't like it very much, no matter what the consesus here. Plus, it remindes me PoE in a lot of ways, so i believe that a game similar to PoE or New Vegas is well within current Obsidian abilities. If you like that or not depends on you.
I'm talking vanila New Vegas, the DLCs except Honest Hearts were better as far as structure and writing goes, but they had Avellone as Lead designer so...

 

[Rake]

And here's a question I have. Can Eric really be judged forever on one game (Where he had to split his time with another game)?

Should we judge Chris by Descent to Undermountain for example?

Quilty until proven otherwise. If White March or PoE sequel or whatever game with Festenmaker at the helm turns out great, all is forgiven and my faith in Obsidian providing good writing again will be restored. I don't have a problem admitting when i'm wrong, it's just that i;m honestly don't expecting it.
At this point i'm honestly more excited about Hong Kong and Siege of Dragonspear than White March, nor do i care about a new IP from Obsidian.
Funny since i always considered myself an Obsidian fanboy, and i was more excited about PoE than even TToN, and i believed PoE had a good chance to have better writing than the latter.

Because it implies that Obsidian's writing has been consistenly good before and thats just lol, no.

Hmm, you got a point there.
KotOR2->good
NWN2 OC->meh
NWN2 MotB->good
NWN2 SoZ->meh
Alpha Protocol ->good
New Vegas ->meh (though better than the previews mehs)
New Vegas DLCs->good
DS3->meh
SPtSoT->good
PoE->meh
PoE WM->good?????????????
Maybe i should be more positive after all

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Sorry, but DS3 wasn't "meh" in the writing department. It was good, especially the choices you can make at the end of the game.

George Ziets was given a really, really shit licence and made a decent effort with it, he deserves more than 'meh'.

As for PoE's story being 'meh' - LOL!

 

[ArchAngel]

All this spells good news for those players who hold the Icewind Dale/Storm of Zehir style of role-playing in higher regard.

What does SoZ have to do with it?
SoZ had freedom of exploration of similar level to BG1, will this expansion give us that?
Will it give us trading system?
Fucking cool crafting system?

 

[Dorateen]

What does SoZ have to do with it?
SoZ had freedom of exploration of similar level to BG1, will this expansion give us that?
Will it give us trading system?
Fucking cool crafting system?

SoZ and Icewind Dale are linked together as classic create-your-party to go out and adventure D&D style games, a design philosophy that predates the Infinity Engine. They stand in diametric opposition to the "personal story" design that developers attempt to force in titles like MotB and Planescape: Torment.

I don't expect wide exploration or a trading mini-game because that is not part of the White March's stated design goals.

As for crafting, don't know if it will be improved or not. From what I've experienced early on in PoE, I enjoy the resource gathering and adding enchantments to equipment. Seems to be working all right so far.

 

[Infinitron]

I think PoE's plot is in line with the Obsidian/Black Isle norm for fantasy, in its preoccupation with gods and religion over de-contextualized "magical" shenanigans. Very broadly speaking, you can say that Bioware write stories about wizards, Obsidian write stories about priests.

SoZ and Icewind Dale are linked together as classic create-your-party to go out and adventure D&D style games, a design philosophy that predates the Infinity Engine. They stand in diametric opposition to the "personal story" design that developers attempt to force in titles like MotB and Planescape: Torment.

IMO Pillars of Eternity's narrative approach mirrors Fallout: New Vegas, which is basically "This guy you don't know just fucked you over. We're not going to tell you why exactly your character cares enough to chase him, and in fact you have plenty of opportunity to dick around doing other things, but we hope the thrill of unraveling the mystery is enough motivation for you as a player to proceed on the main plot." It is indeed not high on the "emotional engagement" factor.

 

[Dorateen]

IMO Pillars of Eternity's narrative approach mirrors Fallout: New Vegas, which is basically "This guy you don't know just fucked you over. We're not going to tell you why exactly your character cares enough to chase him, and in fact you have plenty of opportunity to dick around doing other things, but we hope the thrill of unraveling the mystery is enough motivation for you as a player to proceed on the main plot." It is indeed not high on the "emotional engagement" factor.

And that's a good thing.

But as I mentioned in the initial impressions post I made, the narrative approach immediately struck me as mirroring Icewind Dale's prologue. A caravan is waylaid by disaster, forces not fully comprehended and out of the player's control.

I've been happily ignoring the Watcher subplot when I can. I think others have already pointed out, it's not really coming across as a curse of something "bad" that has happened to the main PC. Rather, I see a lot of messed up things going on in the Dyrwood, and we have to set things right. I'm going after Lord Raedric because he hung a dwarf woman!

 

[Excidium II]

IMO Pillars of Eternity's narrative approach mirrors Fallout: New Vegas, which is basically "This guy you don't know just fucked you over. We're not going to tell you why exactly your character cares enough to chase him, and in fact you have plenty of opportunity to dick around doing other things, but we hope the thrill of unraveling the mystery is enough motivation for you as a player to proceed on the main plot." It is indeed not high on the "emotional engagement" factor.

Are you for real? The guy put a bullet in your head, there ain't better motivation than returning the favor.

It's different from PoE where OMG IM GOING INSANE MUST FIND ANSWERS SOON (not really lol)

 

[Infinitron]

Are you for real? The guy put a bullet in your head, there ain't better motivation than returning the favor.

It's different from PoE where OMG IM GOING INSANE MUST FIND ANSWERS SOON (not really lol)

And PoE's guy put a magic bullet in your head that knocked you out and killed your friends. It just didn't get as stylish a cutscene.

I think both games are made from a rather self-aware/cynical perspective, by people who are themselves simply unexcited by stories about virtual people (see Sawyer's comments about not giving a fuck about kidnapped Imoen in BG2, etc). Given the opportunity, they'd rather skip that stuff and make a game where the player is driven purely by the curiousity of unraveling the mystery of what's going on.

 

[Rake]

And PoE's guy put a magic bullet in your head that knocked you out and killed your friends. It just didn't get as stylish a cutscene.

I think both games are made from a rather self-aware/cynical perspective, by people who are themselves simply unexcited by stories about virtual people (see Sawyer's comments about not giving a fuck about kidnapped Imoen in BG2, etc). Given the opportunity, they'd rather skip that stuff and make a game where the player is required to just be interested enough in unraveling the mystery of what's going on.

I couldn't care less about Imoen. My problem with PoE isn't that it isn't about solving virtual people's problems. My problem is that's it's nonsensical and somewhat uninteresting. MotB, PST and KotOR2. In all these games i didn't give a shit about the virtual people in them, but i was intantly hooked in unraveling the mystery of what's going on. PoE's mystery? Sorry, i don't care.
PST: You awaken in a Mortuary with no idea what's going on. Oh, and you are immortal by the way
MotB: You awake in a cave, with a curse uppon your soul, and only vargue memories about what happened.
PoE: You spy at some people conducting a ritual, the magical backlash kills everyone but you, you have your soul somehow awakened. So the solution is hunting for someone that doesn't even know you were waching his ritual, doesn't know you or what happened to you, with the hope he will somehow "fix" you. Oh, and you don't need fixxing as this thing is actualy an advantage with no drawbacks

 

[Excidium II]

And PoE's guy put a magic bullet in your head that knocked you out and killed your friends. It just didn't get as stylish a cutscene..

It's not really the same situation. Sure in both it's a case of wrong place and time, but in PoE you are a special snowflake, in FNV you are a nameless courier who just got a second chance by pure luck. And you didn't almost die by accident, this guy just ambushes you for your cargo and shoots your face because in the wasteland your life is worth shit. The initial setup is much better, and it makes dealing with Benny much more satisfying (Not to mention the independent ending).

Also FNV does this type of story much better. It pushes you to New Vegas with a desire for answers and revenge, and once the Benny hook is closed you're completely entangled in the faction conflicts. There's no fabricated sense of urgency, which is the worst fucking thing in a CRPG.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't think PoE is really supposed to have a sense of urgency. You're shown that Maerwald got old and went nuts, but it seems that this took decades, so it's not actually, y'know, urgent.

The vibe I get from the game is that your character is an outsider stuck in this colonial backwater, so he assumes a "well, I got nothing better to do than get to the bottom of this now" attitude.