Pillars of Eternity Thread [Pre-Expansion]

[Tigranes]

I agree that I'm being apologistic, which is because I'm enjoying the game so much despite the flaws I recognise. I certainly agree that there needs to be more stuff like shadows.

I think itemisation is pretty similar to other D&D games so far. What is the complaint about magic? On encounter design, no arguments there.

 

[Grunker]

arcanum best combat ever 10/10 would play again

Arcanum is one of those where only complete re-building, especially encounters and dungeon crafting would help it, although I don't hold it as an unsaveable game.

You missed the point. Everything in Arcanum is fine. Huge sprawling character system, theoretically great combat environment with diverse abilities.

So why is it shit? Because it doesn't fucking work. Because the mechanics of combat do not work as advertised. Because it handles like shit, because everything feels like cardboard, because it is degenerate, because the mechanics don't play well together. Because combat boils down to something not reflecting that beautifully sprawling character system. In short because it is broken mechanically if not systemically.

NWN2 is a lesser version of this, and the way AoO's work are the perfect example. In theory they work just like in D&D. In function, because of the way combat is implemented, they don't work like that at all. They're just an obnoxious nuisance which the AI can't handle and the player often can't control.

Your argument that combat in a real time game is just a function of the rules that govern its systems is misguided, put nicely, and straight stupid, in more plain terms.

I think you're being too apologistic.

Apologetic. And while you might call it that, it's what we all are for all RPGs then. Every game has the problems with degenerate strategies you described, you just conviently neglected replying to this:

You think that because a game can be defeated with simple tactics, the combat suffers quality-wise.

Naturally.

In other words: all RPGs ever suck. It's not that I don't hear the argument often here, just rarely from people I have even a sliver of respect for. Usually it's from newbies who don't have a clue, the same sort of people who'll start debates about what makes an RPG.

Pillars has smooth combat that handles very well and allows you to employ and fully control a veritable sleuth of different strategies and mechanics. That makes good RPG combat.

 

[Shadenuat]

Because it handles like shit, because everything feels like cardboard, because it is degenerate, because the mechanics don't play well together. Because combat boils down to something not reflecting that beautifully sprawling character system. In short because it is broken mechanically if not systemically.

Sorry, but most of your hate to Arcanum is mostly due to it's kinesthetics or what's the hipster word to describe it, and I remember all your arguments about that game very well. At the core your argument isn't better than DraQ's about guns not having a reload option, because even if everything in Arcanum was more properly balanced, and encounters would be fun, you would probably still hate it becase it's animations feel like everything is "made out of cardboard".

I personally would rather replay Arcanum even despite it's trash mobs and trash combat because of it is a game that has great strengths. However, I don't think I will go through PoE's mega dungeon ever again even if combat system runs well, game is beautiful and fights end quickly.

Apologetic. And while you might call it that, it's what we all are for all RPGs then. Every game has the problems with degenerate strategies you described, you just conviently neglected replying to this:

Because simply, this is not what gives me a boner. I didn't wait since 2000 for a "smooth combat" without shitty camera or what was ruining your experience whole time. I was waiting to be amazed, you know. And to be challenged.

 

[Gord]

Can someone tell me how to get Aloth's personal quest? Because I prefer having Kana Rua or Hiravias (who I haven't talked to since I recruited him) as companions, but I don't want to miss what triggers his quest.

I suspect that

Spoiler

it's connected to one animancer in the Sanitarium in Defiance Bay, the one in the first room on the left in the cellar, I think.
I haven't actually tried it yet, since I play without Aloth, but that guy was talking about how he researches Awakened Souls. I had the option to tell him that my main char is something like that, being a Watcher, but he wanted some other variant. Which means Aloth, I suspect.

 

[Gord]

Because simply, this is not what gives me a boner. I didn't wait since 2000 for a "smooth combat" without shitty camera or what was ruining your experience whole time. I was waiting to be amazed, you know.

To be fair, a relatively mainstreamy game like PoE (because despite being Kickstarted, that's what it is), might never provide you with that out of the box. BG2 probably nowadays wouldn't either. But a modded version might, eventually.

 

[Ninjerk]

Can someone tell me how to get Aloth's personal quest? Because I prefer having Kana Rua or Hiravias (who I haven't talked to since I recruited him) as companions, but I don't want to miss what triggers his quest.

I suspect that

Spoiler

it's connected to one animancer in the Sanitarium in Defiance Bay, the one in the first room on the left in the cellar, I think.
I haven't actually tried it yet, since I play without Aloth, but that guy was talking about how he researches Awakened Souls. I had the option to tell him that my main char is something like that, being a Watcher, but he wanted some other variant. Which means Aloth, I suspect.

It's exactly that.

 

[Shadenuat]

To be fair, a relatively mainstreamy game like PoE (because despite being Kickstarted, that's what it is), might never provide you with that out of the box. BG2 probably nowadays wouldn't either. But a modded version might, eventually.

I was also waiting for second Kreia or something, but I'm not sure I got that either and that is something mods would not provide for sure. I am hoping for expansion though.

I agree that, if PoE system would be expanded, and encounters would be rebalanced to the level of bounty quests at least, it might become a great game, because the basic stuff seems like it is in place.

 

[Jarpie]

Does anyone know if there's special dialogue throughout the game with Durance if you are also the priest of Magran, or should I play some other priest?

 

[Bubbles]

I finally did my public duty and waded into the SA thread to search for rope kid posts.

Turns out arbalest damage is bugged and will be greatly reduced:

Unless I'm seeing something wrong in the data, only the standard arbalest has overly high damage (32-40). The prefabs for Fine, Exceptional, Aedrin's Wrecker, and Hold-Wall all have significantly reduced damage (22-32). It's easy to fix the base prefab.

It turns out it was a Perforce/Unity hiccup. Damage values should be fixed for this patch or the next (base 22-32).

 

[Roguey]

Missed weapon focus chat but it sounds like something easily fixed just by adding more items. I don't see the big deal since it's not like it's D&D where not being proficient in something gives you a penalty. I'm reasonably certain you can complete Pillars without spending any points in any of those groups, since a mandatory talent would be anti-Sawyer.

Balance chat

beloved spirits is debuffed for the patch btw

why? i mean it's crazy x6 but 3 endurance/3 seconds isn't gamechanging with one chanter

combined with constant/rapid recovery and a trollhide belt it gets pretty crazy for something that's purely passive.
...
various things. quick weapons have higher damage output, arbalests finally get the debuff to base 22-32 they were supposed to have at launch, wizard spell and arcane assault ranges++, mind blades damage--.

Stronghold chat

it seems like an awful lot of work went into it, but none of that was directed towards integrating it with the rest of the game

a lot of backers were hostile toward doing any stronghold management whatsoever so it was hard to justify more heavily integrating it.
...
the stronghold took a very long time to implement. we wanted to do a lot more with it in terms of population and reactivity, but as we got into the last ~quarter of development, it became clear that a lot of it wouldn't get done without drawing attention away from critical path content. it's one of the cases where we had a very clear set of A and B priority features for the stronghold and we didn't have time for the B set.
...

i mean from the perspective of the underlying systems its a lot more involved than any baldur's gate stronghold, it just that the systems are there with zero supporting content, while the baldur's gate 2 strongholds were CLEARLY as much of an afterthought as the PoE version... maybe even more of an afterthought, actually. its just that they didnt even bother with special systems for it and thus actually had some (extremely limited in some cases, the ranger cabin lmfao) content you could actually relate to.

i think BG2 could do that because their content-production pipelines were so efficient that they could just have a stronghold and quest for every class, making the lack of customization/mechanics a non-issue. for the future, i think we can do a lot more with it.

design wise, NWN2 was a pretty troubled project with a lot of revisions and crossroads keep doesn't seem like an exception to that, but the content side of it is actually really great. its kinda ironic how rope kid made a video about trying to steer area designers away from trying to implement special features nilly willy and making do with the base tools the game provides, as the failure to do this w/r/t the stronghold is basically what kills it right now.

IMO the issue isn't that the stronghold system is fundamentally bad or doesn't work, but that there isn't enough content backing it up.

basically im kinda unconvinced that those extra system put in place w/r/t the stronghold actually contribute anything positive that couldn't be done within the basic framework of the game. theres a menu for building improvements, but does this menu actually present the player with any sort of interesting or meaningful choices? probably not, you're gonna end up building everything anyway, and a lot of stuff just doesn't do that much in the first place. iirc theres like four upgrades for the inn building (upper floor, fountain, hearth, lab), but this implementation is actually worse than one where you'd just talk to the statue or the resident master craftsman or w/e and tell him "i want rebuild the inn".

there are other advantages to actually having a dedicated data-driven UI for those upgrades, principally that you can access and check it from anywhere. from the player's perspective, that's not much, but a data-driven system also makes implementing and debugging the content for the stronghold much easier. crossroad keep was great, but also entirely scripted and incredibly fragile. if we wanted to make another crossroad keep within the context of the NWN2 engine, we would have had to script the whole thing again; there was little to no existing data structure there to take advantage of.

i think it's also important to say that if we hadn't implemented the systemic aspects, that would have saved programmer and UI artist time, but it wouldn't have saved very much area designer time. our area design resources were the least impacted by the stronghold mechanics implementation. we still would have had difficulty making a good content for the stronghold because all of the area designers had plenty of crit-path and side quests to develop.

Should have left it as a homestead, to hell with feature creep.

 

[Shadenuat]

What is the complaint about magic? On encounter design, no arguments there.

In short it's both very basic, overpowered and dull. It is of no use outside of combat, it lacks fluff and flavour (see Zed's review I think), and there is no magic-to-magic action going. You will probably never use a dispel or protection because you don't have to, and enemy mages won't survive first round of combat against you.

It also can be very swingy to the point of missing or doing incredible crits.

As for overpowered part, it comes from the fact that everyone can be affected by anything (you can use level 1 spell to knockdown a dragon - comes from accuracy being ultimate deciding stat, and saving throws enemies have do not scale well against it) and AI can't protect itself. For example, if you cast (the famous) Slicken on a group of enemies, they will stand in it and fall on a floor without trying to move out of the AoE at all (provided they have something to do, although often they just fail the check multiple times).

The great thing about magic in BG2 and what usually doesn't happen in most games was that it wasn't something constant or permanent. In most games a spell coming your way usually means you take damage, and in PoE you just throw pie plates at each other with various effects. It's something that BG2 drifted away from, at least tried, where whole area spells could be removed, whole schools or elements could be protected from, and some effects could even bounce back and forth in a spectacular way. I always loved that, it made battlefield alive.
With PoE's spellcasting speed and it's speeds in general that also takes a hit btw.

And of course making level 1 and 2 spells per-encounter was a mistake, it's like with the fighter and his knockdowns but now multiplied x8, since you can spam those every combat and they do work very well.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

The combat is some of the best I've ever played. Encounter design is mediocre at worst, and it is laughable to say that it is outdone by BG1.

Also, saying "is outdone by BG2" is pretty hilarious. If it outdid BG2, it'd be my favourite game. Not being my favourite game of all time doesn't mean it can't be excellent. And it actually does outdo BG2 on the vast majority of fights - just not the key fights.

My point about encounter design in BG2 wasn't that BG2 "outdoes" PoE in that regard. I would have been amazed if PoE matched up to it in that regard. It's more that it doesn't even remotely come close. As much inspiration as Obsidian took from the IE games to make PoE, they seemingly took no inspiration at all from BG2's encounter design. While some of the things they left out that BG2 fans are mad about can be argued that maybe they aren't actually that good, it's not controversial at all to say BG2 had great encounter design. It's one of the key reasons it's a great game and why people even wanted a spiritual successor to it 15 years later.

Though frankly this is a problem with RPGs in general. For as important as encounter design is, designers seem to put very little effort into it in most games. D:OS and Wasteland 2 weren't very good at this either. I don't really get it because it can turn a game with less than great mechanics (like BG2) into an exceptional game if done well, and can similarly destroy a game with otherwise great mechanics (like ToEE) if done poorly.

As for BG1, the only thing that's laughable is you saying it's laughable that the encounter design could be outdone by BG1. I can see an argument for PoE being better in this regard, but it definitely doesn't blow it out of the water so much as to be laughable to suggest otherwise. Encounter design in PoE is mediocre at best. I think you're mistaking enjoyability of trash combat with encounter design. Yes, fighting groups of ravaging kobolds is more entertaining in PoE than in BG1. The encounter design, is, however, the same. "Let's fill this entire dungeon with kobolds" isn't suddenly better design because kobolds have more HP so you can't just wipe them out with a fireball. The fact that trash combat is more fun in PoE doesn't make it not trash combat.

If they build on this game BG1 -> BG2 style, we have great things in store.

I do agree with you fully here. PoE is already a better game than BG1, so if they can make that kind of leap it would be amazing. I just hope they understand what they have to do in order to make that leap, and, personally, better encounter design is at the very top of that list.

 

[Athelas]

Does anyone know if there's special dialogue throughout the game with Durance if you are also the priest of Magran, or should I play some other priest?

Yes, there is.

mind blades damage--

Goddamnit.

you can use level 1 spell to knockdown a dragon

This is an awesome thing. Besides, you could use Chromatic Orb to one-shot dragons in the IE games.

 

[Grunker]

The combat is some of the best I've ever played. Encounter design is mediocre at worst, and it is laughable to say that it is outdone by BG1.

Also, saying "is outdone by BG2" is pretty hilarious. If it outdid BG2, it'd be my favourite game. Not being my favourite game of all time doesn't mean it can't be excellent. And it actually does outdo BG2 on the vast majority of fights - just not the key fights.

My point about encounter design in BG2 wasn't that BG2 "outdoes" PoE in that regard. I would have been amazed if PoE matched up to it in that regard. It's more that it doesn't even remotely come close. As much inspiration as Obsidian took from the IE games to make PoE, they seemingly took no inspiration at all from BG2's encounter design. While some of the things they left out that BG2 fans are mad about can be argued that maybe they aren't actually that good, it's not controversial at all to say BG2 had great encounter design. It's one of the key reasons it's a great game and why people even wanted a spiritual successor to it 15 years later.

Though frankly this is a problem with RPGs in general. For as important as encounter design is, designers seem to put very little effort into it in most games. D:OS and Wasteland 2 weren't very good at this either. I don't really get it because it can turn a game with less than great mechanics (like BG2) into an exceptional game if done well, and can similarly destroy a game with otherwise great mechanics (like ToEE) if done poorly.

As for BG1, the only thing that's laughable is you saying it's laughable that the encounter design could be outdone by BG1. I can see an argument for PoE being better in this regard, but it definitely doesn't blow it out of the water so much as to be laughable to suggest otherwise. Encounter design in PoE is mediocre at best. I think you're mistaking enjoyability of trash combat with encounter design. Yes, fighting groups of ravaging kobolds is more entertaining in PoE than in BG1. The encounter design, is, however, the same. "Let's fill this entire dungeon with kobolds" isn't suddenly better design because kobolds have more HP so you can't just wipe them out with a fireball. The fact that trash combat is more fun in PoE doesn't make it not trash combat.

If they build on this game BG1 -> BG2 style, we have great things in store.

I do agree with you fully here. PoE is already a better game than BG1, so if they can make that kind of leap it would be amazing. I just hope they understand what they have to do in order to make that leap, and, personally, better encounter design is at the very top of that list.

Fair enough.

 

[Shevek]

I dislike the character system.
The way it is made you go all offense or all defense, no interest at all to go in between (and of course the awful might making you a better wizard/gunner).
I guess it's Josh idea of balance.

Im a Kind Wayfarer Moon Godlike Paladin with two handed weapons. I wear heavy plate but no shield. I take offensive talents, sure, but mostly support abilities (except for F.o.D.) - aura is Zealous Endurance. I dont see that as an all out offense build. It works awesome.

 

[Dexter]

Two questions:

Anyone got to Ondra's Gift and did the quest regarding "All Hands on Deck"? Is there any way to open the chest without the main char having a high Mechanics skill? I wanna see what's inside but it doesn't give me the option to use a Companion.

Is it worth imprisoning NPCs in the stronghold dungeon or should I opt for alternative ways for dealing with them? They seem to easily be escaping from there and have not much use otherwise and you seem to lose out on their loot if you imprison them anyway.

 

[Urthor]

Two questions:
Is it worth imprisoning NPCs in the stronghold dungeon or should I opt for alternative ways for dealing with them?

The latter

There's no dialogue for prisoners in the dungeon, at best it's just a way to earn a small amount of money pawning htem to slavers, in a game where you go infinite on the cash front very quickly

Also tbh on the BG2 front, people need to put this in perspective. This is ultimately a Kickstarter game with a smallish budget. What PoE is, and what Obsidian's next CRPG will be post Pillars topping the Steam charts and selling a ton to give them a much larger budget to work with, are two different things.

 

[DeepOcean]

Are intellect barbarians viable on Path of the Damned? I want him as a DPS but don't want him to be made of paper and don't even having a chance of packing a punch.

 

[Grunker]

mind blades damage--

 

[Bester]

Haven't been following any discussion since the game came out.

I'm only through Act 1, but... The Hard difficulty in this game is fucking ridiculous. Never did I have to reload more than once to beat any encounter, and 99% of those were due to me being lazy and not positioning right. The only encounter that proved to be an exception was at the lowest floor of Eothas' cathedral with two rat kings and I only had Eder and Aloth in party at the time.

What the fuck? Are enemies going to git gud at some point or what?

 

[Dreaad]

Yeah the stronghold is basically a meaningless money sink. A way to try and control the ridiculous amount of gold piled onto the player, and it doesn't even work at that.

 

[Athelas]

I'm starting to think the difficulty settings were tuned with the expectation that people would be running all over the place constantly triggering disengagement attacks.

Which, if the few streams I've watched of others playing are any indication, certainly seems to be the case.

 

[Bester]

Yeah the stronghold is basically a meaningless money sink. A way to try and control the ridiculous amount of gold piled onto the player, and it doesn't even work at that.

I'm only looting enchanted weapons and gems, and I disallow myself from looting directly into the stash, and so I don't have any money to sink into the stronghold. I feel like Sawyer disrespected my rights as a player.

 

[Athelas]

You can't allow yourself to stack gems for the authentic IE experience.

 

[Tigranes]

I initially died a lot on Hard after picking some substandard abilities and also doing some stupid things (like forgetting to use potions throughout the whole fucking game), but it became a roflstomp when I started controlling 5/6 party members. I'm having fun with 4, I think 3 would work well but I do want to see the companion content for now.

And yes, it's silly Expert Mode lets you send loot on ground directly to stash. Just means you sell a million normal weapons when you get back. I was doing 'Take All' on most items out of habit at one stage then realised it was stupid, now I just take what I need.

Bester I know you're fiddling with the files, how mod friendly is the game? Can we expect to see people do things like adjust monster stats, add new abilities to monsters, reduce XP gain, etc.?