Popular weapons *PWN* better ones in RPGs

[Johannes]

How is the amount of celeb smiths relevant to anything? Different cultures produced different swords, all fit for their environments - japs had poor steel supply, and poor or nonexistent armor on your enemies, so they made katanas (and other kinds of swords too, obviously). Europeans did their own thing as did Middle easterners, Indians, Chinese... Made blades relevant to the purpose they were meant to be wielded in.

What can be argued though is that Jap swordsmithing is inferior because they largely stopped evolving their designs and just dogmatically stuck to the katana for many many centuries, whereas Europeans kept coming up with new designs as the circumstances changed and R&D was done on what's good.

 

[GarfunkeL]

How is the amount of celeb smiths relevant to anything? Different cultures produced different swords, all fit for their environments - japs had poor steel supply, and poor or nonexistent armor on your enemies, so they made katanas (and other kinds of swords too, obviously). Europeans did their own thing as did Middle easterners, Indians, Chinese... Made blades relevant to the purpose they were meant to be wielded in.

What can be argued though is that Jap swordsmithing is inferior because they largely stopped evolving their designs and just dogmatically stuck to the katana for many many centuries, whereas Europeans kept coming up with new designs as the circumstances changed and R&D was done on what's good.

Exactly. I've been trying to make this point throughout this topic. Nips smiths weren't magical or advanced compared to the rest of the world. Not because Nips are inherently bad smiths but because their shitty little island was so isolated from the rest of the world. Which is why they turned a necessity into a virtue and thus ensured further stagnation instead of innovation.

Guy guy, no matter how you avoid the question, it's a fact that we know one or two Japanese bladesmith's names. And know dick all about Swedish/Scandinavian/European/Italian/Roman bladesmith from antiquity to modern age. DICK. ALL.

Musashi wasn't a bladesmith, he was a swordsman. There are mythological blacksmiths in European folklore (Ilmarinen from Finland being a good example) but obviously swordsmen and knights are more famous. Are we going to argue that Norse wrestling was superior to everyone else because Beowulf wrestled successfully at one point? Is someone going to claim that Chinese armies were superior to everyone else because Sun Tzu wrote some interesting stuff down on parchment? Are English archers the most badass dudes ever because of Robin Hood or does the legend of Robin Hood mean that English longbows are suddenly without flaws and can kill fully armoured knights at hundreds of feet? (I've actually seen that argument) Because that's what Damned Registrations argument boils down to: pop-culture fairly recently made some Japanese guys somewhat famous - I can fucking guarantee that Joe Sixpack down the road will have no fucking clue about Musashi - so it must mean that they were doing some things right. But that's not how it works.

The same isolation from everyone else can be seen in WW2 Japanese equipment. Their tanks were absolute crap, their small arms weren't anything to write home about, they had no investment in radar, their planes ranged from great with some glaring flaws to fairly shitty, and their ships - pound for pound - were inferior to American and British ones. Sure, they had some great torpedoes but those were overtaken by Kwa in short order. The British Empire wasn't born because everyone stuck to fucking sheep wearing the same fucking wool robe they had always worn - but because they had regular contact with the rest of the world and actively went out and traded and fought and accidentally innovated and shit along the way. Japan didn't and it doesn't matter whether it was politics or religion or culture.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Who cares about ancient nobodies and political situation. I'm checking this thread every day to see if differential quenching was worth anything or not.

 

[laclongquan]

I am not referring to Musashi here, but Murasame and Masamune. But nice going with strawman argument there. As for Japanese WW2 I really dont want to go into those tiny details with you. If you want to dismiss EVERYTHING they have achieved prior to overrun the Pacific West Coastal regions... fine. You win.

As for the variety of designs, shit, I also dont want to argue the achievement of ONE country against the same of one CONTINENT.

In conclusion, I dont want to be dragged down to mud and get hit over the head by wooden branches. You win. Happy?

 

[skallagrim]

I saw skallagrim is apparently on the Codex

No. That is a different skallagrim.

 

[RandomAccount]

Name one medieval European writer or painter living before black death epidemic.

Geoffrey Chaucer is one of the most famous writers on the planet. He lived from 1343-1400. The Black Death was between 1346-1353. Good heavens, Dante was 1265-1321 and if you've never heard of Dante's Inferno then I've no idea what rock you've lived under.

On topic - the prevalence of swords in RPGs comes from the phrase "Sword and Sorcery":

The term "sword and sorcery" was first coined in 1961, when the British author Michael Moorcock published a letter in the fanzine Amra, demanding a name for the sort of fantasy-adventure story written by Robert E. Howard. He had initially proposed the term "epic fantasy". However, the celebrated American sword-and-sorcery authorFritz Leiber replied in the journal Ancalagon (6 April 1961) suggesting, "sword-and-sorcery as a good popular catchphrase for the field". He expanded on this in the July 1961 issue of Amra, commenting:

I feel more certain than ever that this field should be called the sword-and-sorcery story. This accurately describes the points of culture-level and supernatural element and also immediately distinguishes it from the cloak-and-sword (historical adventure) story—and (quite incidentally) from the cloak-and-dagger (international espionage) story too! (Fritz Leiber, Amra, July 1961)

Though not explicitly mentioned in Leiber's letter, the originally Italian film genre known as "sword and sandal", depicting heroic adventures in settings derived from the Bible or Greek mythology, was at the peak of its popularity in the US at the time when the letter was written.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_and_sorcery

It's no wonder that the concept of swords became so prevalent in later culture. If you knew the subject well you wouldn't even need to question why this is the case, you'd be asking people to change...

But I, personally, don't really care what weapon I use, as long as the game uses whatever weapons it gives well and interestingly.

Edit: And I bet most of you would think a username of Moorcock was just a dumb troll username...

 

[Johannes]

Name one medieval European writer or painter living before black death epidemic.

Geoffrey Chaucer is one of the most famous writers on the planet. He lived from 1343-1400. The Black Death was between 1346-1353. Good heavens, Dante was 1265-1321 and if you've never heard of Dante's Inferno then I've no idea what rock you've lived under.

On topic - the prevalence of swords in RPGs comes from the phrase "Sword and Sorcery":

The term "sword and sorcery" was first coined in 1961, when the British author Michael Moorcock published a letter in the fanzine Amra, demanding a name for the sort of fantasy-adventure story written by Robert E. Howard. He had initially proposed the term "epic fantasy". However, the celebrated American sword-and-sorcery authorFritz Leiber replied in the journal Ancalagon (6 April 1961) suggesting, "sword-and-sorcery as a good popular catchphrase for the field". He expanded on this in the July 1961 issue of Amra, commenting:

I feel more certain than ever that this field should be called the sword-and-sorcery story. This accurately describes the points of culture-level and supernatural element and also immediately distinguishes it from the cloak-and-sword (historical adventure) story—and (quite incidentally) from the cloak-and-dagger (international espionage) story too! (Fritz Leiber, Amra, July 1961)

Though not explicitly mentioned in Leiber's letter, the originally Italian film genre known as "sword and sandal", depicting heroic adventures in settings derived from the Bible or Greek mythology, was at the peak of its popularity in the US at the time when the letter was written.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_and_sorcery

It's no wonder that the concept of swords became so prevalent in later culture. If you knew the subject well you wouldn't even need to question why this is the case, you'd be asking people to change...

But I, personally, don't really care what weapon I use, as long as the game uses whatever weapons it gives well and interestingly.

It's not just terms coined in the 60s.

Swords simply are the most prevalent, visible, and iconic weapon of all. They usually were not used as primary weapons in war, that's true - but most soldiers did have them as sidearms. And in civilian life they were pretty much the only weapons in use - you didn't leave for your daily business every day carrying a spear or halberd, but a lot of people did have a sword of some kind on their side at all times. Duels were fought with swords. Swords are the melee weapon that stayed around the longest in military use (bayonets don't really count here).

The phrase Sword & Sorcery is no mistake, that term was picked because swords already had this status, not the other way around.

 

[RandomAccount]

Quite. It's like saying 'why are so many murder mysteries about overly elaborate and fantastical poisons?' - it's just that's what it is for reasons that occurred. You don't like it? How on earth did you get addicted to the cliche in the first place?

 

[Fowyr]

their small arms weren't anything to write home about

They sometimes had some insaneinteresting designs. Type 11 machine gun reloaded from Arisaka stripper clips springs to mind.
On the other hand, firearms history is full of strange artifacts.

 

[laclongquan]

So when it's European you say it's unique and interesting/varied design. But when it's Asian/Japanese you say it's strange/insane?

Got it!

 

[GarfunkeL]

I am referring to Musashi here, but Murasame and Masamune.

Oh, my bad. My point still stands - they are famous but only to people who have actually looked into the topic (or played an RPG) :D

But nice going with strawman argument there. As for Japanese WW2 I really dont want to go into those tiny details with you. If you want to dismiss EVERYTHING they have achieved prior to overrun the Pacific West Coastal regions... fine. You win.

As for the variety of designs, shit, I also dont want to argue the achievement of ONE country against the same of one CONTINENT.

In conclusion, I dont want to be dragged down to mud and get hit over the head by wooden branches. You win. Happy?

Chill out dude and relax. I wrote three times that I'm not badmouthing the Japanese. I'm merely bringing up some facts and putting them into the proper context vis-a-vis the big picture. Making a proper katana wasn't a trivial exercise and conquering most of Asia in WW2 wasn't trivial either. But katanas were not magic and they eventually did lose their empire pretty fucking quickly. That's my point. Not that Japs are worst at everything or that katanas are automatically useless pieces of shit.

Japanese smiths didn't invent the techniques that they used to make katanas, those techniques had already been invented by Celts and Norse centuries before. The design of katana did not remain the way it was because it was the ultimate sword but because of an almost religious adherence to it, that caused stagnation. Not only in blacksmithing or swords but in so many other areas of Japanese society, which all stemmed from isolation.

their small arms weren't anything to write home about

They sometimes had some insaneinteresting designs. Type 11 machine gun reloaded from Arisaka stripper clips springs to mind.
On the other hand, firearms history is full of strange artifacts.

Which was just as great an idea as the open-sided half-moon magazines on Chauchat :D

 

[RandomAccount]

These are pretty insane looking guns when you actually think about it:

But then you don't see too many in RPGs either...

Lots in FPS's most likely, but it's not an RPG standard (*waits for an inflood of lists of RPGs where it makes an appearance)

 

[GarfunkeL]

JA2

So when it's European you say it's unique and interesting/varied design. But when it's Asian/Japanese you say it's strange/insane?

Got it!

Wat. That's not what he said. And there are plenty of examples of shitty designs from Europe. Like nearly everything made in France

 

[Raghar]

French tanks worked. Luftwaffe aircraft worked as well.

 

[RandomAccount]

French tanks worked.

Theoretically, yes, but they only work if the driver has his hands on the steering wheel instead of up in the air...

 

[JarlFrank]

Differential quenching isn't folding. It involves cooling different parts of the blade at different rates so the steel changes to different states.

Why do you suppose not a single smith in all of europe entered their mythology? Seems kind of odd. Plenty of their artists and scientists did.

Name one medieval European writer or painter living before black death epidemic.

In this period European artists weren't really recognised(black death and proto-renaissance changed it though), their works often weren't even signed. When it comes to craftsmen - they're pretty much anonymous thanks to guild structure which contributed to spreading the knowledge about their techniques further. That's why you can hear about "Italian/Mediolan Armour-smiths" and not about Gayeano Faggotto the Master Dildomaker.

 

[SCO]

This topic reminds me of the modern steel blacksmiths and the nuts who buy their overpriced swords made of space age steel.

 

[RandomAccount]

And yet this thread survives 'retardoland' because...

 

[Norfleet]

I don't think modern body armor would fare well against any type of sword anyway, since it's not designed to protect against that.

Well, people who go about carrying swords in public draw way too much attention. All such settings are long past the point at which swords are carried around even as ceremonial pieces. Carrying a gun may be normal, and can be concealed. Carrying a sword is abnormal and immediately attracts attention, and most are not terribly concealable. When it comes to actually using it to kill someone, there is nothing you can accomplish in a modern setting with a sword that you cannot accomplish more easily with a knife.

 

[Koschey]

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

Spoiler

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Lots in FPS's most likely, but it's not an RPG standard (*waits for an inflood of lists of RPGs where it makes an appearance)

JA2

Fallout 2

(but it was a burst weapon that used rare ammo so it was shit)

 

[GarfunkeL]

Ah, Koschey brings back the classics!

 

[Damned Registrations]

If you want to talk about better weapons getting shortchanged in RPGs, how about grenades? They mysteriously weigh so much you can only carry an extremely limited supply, and standing on top of one while it explodes is comparable to a gunshot wound, as opposed to being ripped to shreds. And of course their effective radius is usually about a fifth of what it ought to be.

Venom tends to be laughably underpowered as well. Instead of crippling the victim within a matter of seconds, it causes generalized status penalties or insignificant damage over a long period of time.

 

[laclongquan]

I slightly risk a sidenote back about Japan WW2, and not about weapons:

Japan was a classic example of conquering too much in a too short a time period. Their logistic in both war and administration simply cant cope with that. The sharply increase in occupation troops mean they must train more to use, which they couldnt guarantee their quality like at the start of the war, which they had advantage of skilled and motivation over everybody else. The sharply increase of territories needed to be admin cant be coped with their current supply of admin personels either. But they didnt change their occupational policies to cope with that, not that I blame them because it's still too early after their conquest. So their qualitative difference nosedive.

Pacific West at that time was a ripe prey, but not easy to digest. Not easy at all.

 

[GarfunkeL]

I slightly risk a sidenote back about Japan WW2, and not about weapons

The war was decided on the seas and that's where they lost it. The problems with occupying and exploiting Southern Resource Area would not have mattered as long as they could have kept USN and RN away.

If you want to talk about better weapons getting shortchanged in RPGs, how about grenades? They mysteriously weigh so much you can only carry an extremely limited supply, and standing on top of one while it explodes is comparable to a gunshot wound, as opposed to being ripped to shreds. And of course their effective radius is usually about a fifth of what it ought to be.

Grenade effective radius is actually really small - but their effect inside inside that radius is pretty laughable in most RPGs, I agree. Even JA2 screws it up there - a frag grenade 1-3 tiles from your merc should be instant death. Which is why I always up the explosive damage by 300%.