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Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #49: Prototype Demo

imweasel

Guest
3D is pointless when viewed from a fixed perspective.
not true.
3D means possible and proper dynamic shadows, better physics, better scalability, better modability, more easily done dynamic sceneries... and pretty sure something more I can't come up with that quickly.
It has drawbacks nonetheles, big ones. But it doesn't make 3D objectively pointless.
Yup.

Real time 3D games can also be rendered with perspective projection. I.e. the backgrounds and models change dynamically with camera movement to form a realisitic view of the scene. This is of course impossible with 2D backgrounds, which is why they look rather stale and unnatural.

So no, real time 3D is not pointless if viewed with a fixed camera. The moment the camera moves the perspective in relation to objects in the scene changes in a real world scenario. This can obviously not be emulated in a computer game if the backgrounds are 2D.
 

St. Toxic

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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Animate it properly with a light turning around the head. I want to see all the perfect dynamic shadows incl. selfshadowing... you have your "distance to light-source without that Y", it is easy to compute.
I'm waiting, having full faith in you :thumbsup:

There's too much epicleptic flashing involved as it is.

2ytznue.jpg


So, we're forced to have surfaces intrinsically flat, but we can still have multi-layer elevations and shadows crossing through multiple levels in top-down games and we can still use height-maps. Self-shadowing is possible, but it probably wouldn't look all that great if all it relied on was geometry. Any kind of shadow is still possible, but hell if you'd actually want to implement all that shit when you can just fake most of it.

Not by principle, of course. But by the fact that you have complete information of all faces in the scene. Thus for example ragdoll accelerated by explosion can bounce off of a wall, land in a group of crates, its kinetic energy passing to them.

Yeah, those 2d physics games like Phun and Cake probably operate on MAGIC. I mean, incomplete 2D information rite. A ragdoll that SUPPOSEDLY accelerates by an explosion simply CAN'T bounce of a wall and DOESN'T pass on its kinetic energy unless it's doing so in a 3D environment.

The crates all travel further, rotating, bouncing, eventually being realistically destroyed into debris which also continues behaving properly.
Fuck. Proper physics always means also 3D rotation of an object.

In your fucked up brain maybe.

Rotate a crate using nothing but 2maps and 2D math and I'll buy you an ice-cream

What a challenge.

2yxomyt.gif


Where's my fucking ice-cream?

What the fuck? When was the last time some RPG used 2D vector graphics :lol:

This thread. :?

Yes, Mr. Toxic, master of computer graphics, physics, optics, and math, unlimited and easy scalability comes with vectors. 3D is based on ::drumroll:: vectors!

Wow, what a fucking plot-twist.

:kingcomrade:

Seriously, do you have an argument or not?

I dunno. Ask the guys who need to create 3D model of a character and then create shitloads of sprites for every stance and animation in any given angle (typically 4 or 8) to mod, for example teh old Fallout.

Those sprites are hand-painted, not rendered. I've done sprites before, it's not that hard. It doesn't compare to just switching out the textures on a 3d-model, naturally, but if you want to actually add completely new and original content -- 2d is generally an easier platform to work with than 3d.

same as before. you have to create 3D model + animation
2D means you have to generate animated sprite which will be always stuttering

What? Why would it be stuttering?

Guess why the hell is the turning wheel in second scenery from Torment made in 3D? Because Fargo wanted to show how badass and modern he is?

They probably found it cheap in the Unity shop. You know it would look better as a sprite made in the same quality as the rest of the environment. I mean, as it is now it certainly sticks out.

3D looking game without having 3D information is always limited.

If you're making a 2D game, a third axis of information is like an appendix.

I hope you'll read all the text above much better than the text you have responded to here. Read again. Read a-fucking-gain, honey.

So 2D games need 3D graphics so that boxes can rotate? Motherfucker, how can I have been so blind?

Shit happens.

Amen brother. It happens, it stinks, it goes on forums and argues for 3D graphics.

PS: You aren't suggesting some sidescrolling mario type game, or some similar douchebaggery, I hope. We would be singing a different song then.

Should be fairly obvious that I'm talking about 2d games in general, whether they're side-scrolling, iso or top-down.
 

Pyke

The Brotherhood
Developer
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Messages
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Location
South Africa
Another thing - if you need to resize one of these 2D characters when he climbs up a hill, that means you need to track his z coordinate anyway. You're doing some of the same stuff you would have done in a fully 3D system anyway.

Quick point-these games are using 2 point perspective...if the character moves higher or lower, he wont change in scale, because there is no Z point in the space. Even if it was in a 3D engine (which Eternity is using), the character scale (in relation to its environment) stays constant no matter where he is on the screen. The only scaling that happens is when you zoom in or out, but that's happening to the entire world.
 

St. Toxic

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Yemen / India
Nah, you can still have scale-changes. Think of jumping in top-down 2D games.

From what he wants of the crate rotation I think he means rotation in the non-orthogonal axes to that of the plane and not the axis normal to it. The latter is easy as you showed.

Don't be dense, Shrek, I know what he meant. He wasn't specific in his challenge, but if you want actual 3D rotation of a 2D object, you're a fucking imbecile. Realistically, if you want 2d boxes rolling around all over the place, you'd animate the '3d rotation' within the sprite.

However, I wouldn't be caught arguing that it's better to animate 3d rotation in a 2d game, if that's what your game is focusing on. I was quite specific in my claim that 3D is pointless when viewed from a fixed perspective -- *that statement rather excludes rotating boxes. If you actually need or want 3d physics and effects in your game, you shouldn't be using 2D graphics and it is that simple.

*Edited for clarity
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
Patron
Developer
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Messages
16,947
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Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
FUCKING QUIT TALKING ABOUT THIS BORING GRAPHICAL STUFF, FUCKING VECTORS HOW DO THEY WORK BROS! CAN WE TALK ABOUT THE EFFIN PROJECT ETERNITY NOW? TARDED GRAPHICAL TECHNIC WHORES! FOR FUCKS SAKE WHERE AM I?? :rage:
 

Pyke

The Brotherhood
Developer
Joined
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Messages
1,226
Location
South Africa
Those sprites are hand-painted, not rendered. I've done sprites before, it's not that hard. It doesn't compare to just switching out the textures on a 3d-model, naturally, but if you want to actually add completely new and original content -- 2d is generally an easier platform to work with than 3d.

The FALLOUT characters are rendered, not hand painted. Same as the original Diablo. Each frame has to be saved aswell, which makes for an asset management nightmare when working on a project of that scale. 3D, when it comes to characters, is MUCH easier, and in general, better.

2D and 3D both have different advantages, but saying that adding in 2D content is easier is misleading. Its just simply not true. If you are working in a team of people, and you have an artist, and a level designer, a level designer can use multiple assets created by an artist in the editor, and very quickly and easily place items, assets, etc, to build a place up. They can scale, rotate, and manipulate it in 3D space. 1 tree, rotated a few degrees can look very different. Content on a mass scale is MUCH easier to create when using a 3D engine, than in a 2D engine. 2D usually requires an artists hand (if done properly), when creating your level design. And level designers aren't artists, and artists aren't level designers.
 

St. Toxic

Arcane
Joined
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The FALLOUT characters are rendered, not hand painted.

What do you mean by FALLOUT characters? The talking heads? Or the sprites? Last I heard, the sprites were hand-painted and animated, albeit sometimes using 3d models as an initial base. Talking heads are obviously pre-rendered.

Same as the original Diablo.

Can't comment.

Each frame has to be saved aswell, which makes for an asset management nightmare when working on a project of that scale.

Yeah, holy crap. It's not like each frame of animation on a 3d model has to be saved. There are automated data management systems in place to handle shit like that.

3D, when it comes to characters, is MUCH easier, and in general, better.

Depends on the level of detail you're going for.

2D and 3D both have different advantages, but saying that adding in 2D content is easier is misleading. Its just simply not true.

Why? It is easier. Items, map assets, props -- you can vomit this shit out in copious amounts. Once you get to animated sprites, the effects are pretty simple and you're only stuck with character sprites and animation. Now that shit can and does take some time. In the end, however, it all balances out.

If you are working in a team of people, and you have an artist, and a level designer, a level designer can use multiple assets created by an artist in the editor, and very quickly and easily place items, assets, etc, to build a place up.

Well, sure, though it's irrelevant to this point whether it's a 2D or 3D game.

Content on a mass scale is MUCH easier to create when using a 3D engine, than in a 2D engine.

Some content, absolutely right. As long as you can re-use models and animations, you can pump out variations on the same theme almost effortlessly. By comparison, the best 2d can do in this department is palette-changes. However, 2D has a good chance of winning out on the initial investment of time that goes into creating an object.

2D usually requires an artists hand (if done properly), when creating your level design. And level designers aren't artists, and artists aren't level designers.

Level designers should be artists.

Those games don't use 2 point perspective, like Project Eternity. Apologies, I thought we were talking specifically about this game.

Nah, they're using both 2d and 3d assets for P:E, which is reasonable for what they're trying to do, but detrimental to this kind of discussion. But, you could still have scale-changes even with 2 point perspective. It depends on how far you push it from top-down though. At some point, as you're approaching side-scroller, scale-changes would start to look weird.

EDIT: Well actually, it could still work out, depending on how it's used.
 

Pyke

The Brotherhood
Developer
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Messages
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Yeah, holy crap. It's not like each frame of animation on a 3d model has to be saved. There are automated data management systems in place to handle shit like that.

No-each frame doesn't need to be saved. Modern 3D engines use a bone system, where the animation is blended between existing bones. Separate motions for hands, arms, head, torso, etc, can all be blended on the fly. So, for example, the legs are separate from the body.
So you have a walking set for the legs, and a sword swing for the torso and arms. This allows you to have a character walk, or walk and swing a sword, without the need to save 'frames' for each animation.

Personally, my game has 3700 frames of animation for the main character (roughly) and that will likely double by the end of it. And thats for ONE character, because Im using a traditional 2D Sprite based system. Trust me-I know all of the downfalls!

Depends on the level of detail you're going for.

Again, I was under the impression that we were talking about Project Eternity. The level of detail has absolutely nothing to do with it. If you have a character with a different helm, sword, shield, or the countless other items that would adorn one of these little folk, there is NO valid argument to NOT use a 3D system. It makes absolutely no sense. And 'automated data management systems' aren't as automated as you think. Thats why games have character limits.

Level designers should be artists.

No. Level designers should be level designers. Its 2 completely different disciplines. Thats like saying a Sound Designer should be a pianist, or a 3D artist should be a programmer.

You can use 3D Assets in 2 point perspective. But if you are using 2 point perspective, there are no scale changes in terms of depth (moving 'towards' or 'away' from a specific point), because there is no depth. There are only 2 points...X and Y.
 

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
Developer
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Oct 22, 2012
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710
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Belgistan
pile of crap, flashes of sanity
and this
Should be fairly obvious that I'm talking about 2d games in general, whether they're side-scrolling, iso or top-down.
I really don't have time to argue with someone who is mixing together:
game spaces
- pure 2D games (typically side scrollers, shoot'em ups, many old adventure games)
- prerendered 3D sprite based 2D (but 3D resembling) games
- 2.5D (flat prerendered background + 3D objects - typically animated ones and those involved in physics)
- 3D
object definition and data structure
- vector vs. map
- 2D objects vs. 3D objects
camera
- top-down
- high angle
- side
camera conrol
- free look
- free rotation
- free zoom
- pre set angles
- fixed
projection
- paralel
- perspective
- and special cases - isometry, cavalier oblique, whatever else


and claiming that 2D rules in every aspect. You know shit about most of the topics and I am not a teacher nor am I willing to be one.
Maybe I will reply to all the nonsense (and normal thoughts, yes, you have some) later. But I doubt it.
 

imweasel

Guest
3D is pointless when viewed from a fixed perspective

Well, the camera can be moved in Project Eternity, so the perspective is not fixed (static).

The backgrounds in P:E however have a fixed (static) perspective, because they are prerendered. No matter where you move the camera, the perspective is always the same - which is of course unrealisitic.

When the camera moves, then the perspective changes, in a real world simulation at least. This can only be achieved if the background is not static, i.e. the background must be dynamic, which of course requires real time 3D.

Here is an example. In real time 3D the camera moves and the perspective changes accordingly (the chasm illustrates this quite well). This is impossible with a static background like the one being used P:E, which is one of the many shortcomings of using static, prerendered backgrounds.

In my opinion Divinity: Original Sin looks better than P:E because of this, even though the polygon count is rather low.
 

St. Toxic

Arcane
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
9,098
Location
Yemen / India
Fallout talking heads were hand-made 3D masks.

They were, before the point data was imported into 3ds and animated.

No-each frame doesn't need to be saved. Modern 3D engines use a bone system, where the animation is blended between existing bones. Separate motions for hands, arms, head, torso, etc, can all be blended on the fly. So, for example, the legs are separate from the body. So you have a walking set for the legs, and a sword swing for the torso and arms. This allows you to have a character walk, or walk and swing a sword, without the need to save 'frames' for each animation.

But you can use a similar layer system in a 2D environment as well. The point is, if you want to animate a 3d object, you're forced to save the animation data in static frames. If you want to move or rotate an object in-engine, the intermediate stages between the positions are computed for you, but that's a process independent of whether you're doing so in 2D or 3D.

Personally, my game has 3700 frames of animation for the main character (roughly) and that will likely double by the end of it. And thats for ONE character, because Im using a traditional 2D Sprite based system. Trust me-I know all of the downfalls!

But I've done character animation in both 2D and 3D, and in terms of asset management they both have a tendency of getting bloated. If you have a good system in place to counter that, there shouldn't be any problem.

Again, I was under the impression that we were talking about Project Eternity. The level of detail has absolutely nothing to do with it.

It does for 3D characters. I mean, sure, if you're happy with Grim Fandango polycounts, mapping and animation, you can pump out characters with a minimum of effort. The same applies to 2D but to a much lesser extent.


If you have a character with a different helm, sword, shield, or the countless other items that would adorn one of these little folk, there is NO valid argument to NOT use a 3D system.

If you have a particularly limited number of accessories, or if all of them fall into very similar categories that allow for graphical abstraction, it might not be worth the effort of going for 3D. It wouldn't simplify the creation process, but it would minimize resource costs.

Here's an argument, though. Suppose you're using a graphical style that's reliant on more than the repositioning or rotating of objects, where pieces of equipment go beyond what's physically possible or display what may be considered as alien properties. You might want equipment fusing into the character, breaking the fourth wall, changing size and shape, liquefying and solidifying etc. While all of these effects are quite possible in 3D, the process of implementing them is more straightforward in 2D.

No. Level designers should be level designers. Its 2 completely different disciplines.

I disagree. In my opinion, you can't take art out of design, nor design out of art.

You can use 3D Assets in 2 point perspective. But if you are using 2 point perspective, there are no scale changes in terms of depth (moving 'towards' or 'away' from a specific point), because there is no depth. There are only 2 points...X and Y.

I'm getting confused by your use of the term 2 point perspective.

two-point-perspective.jpg


Ignoring this, there's no real limit imposed on rendering an orthogonal image stretched in order to give the illusion of depth.

2rffqs2.jpg


You have to make exceptions for objects and characters on the map, naturally, giving them an upright rather than stretched appearance, but by altering their scale depending on their position in regards to the viewpoint the effect still passes for simulated depth.


hitler-negotiations.jpg


Well, the camera can be moved in Project Eternity, so the perspective is not fixed (static).

True, here's what it looks like when you move the camera:

2a4ya9t.jpg
 

imweasel

Guest
True, here's what it looks like when you move the camera:
I said move the camera, i.e. move the camera parallel to the 2D plane / axis of the 3D projection and not rotate the camera, plane or axises. In other words, use the arrow keys to move the camera and change the viewing area....

Jesus Christ. Are you stubborn or are you really just a retard?
 

St. Toxic

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
9,098
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Yemen / India
I said move the camera, i.e. move the camera parallel to the 2D plane / axis of the 3D projection and not rotate the camera, plane or axises. In other words, use the arrow keys to move the camera and change the viewing area....

Jesus Christ. Are you stubborn or are you really just a retard?

Oh, I know what you said. Here's a quote:

the perspective is not fixed (static).

And it's true! Just look at the image.
 

St. Toxic

Arcane
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
9,098
Location
Yemen / India
Retarded or a stubborn 2D old fag. Hmmm, i'm not sure.

3D is pointless when viewed from a fixed perspective.

Well, the camera can be moved in Project Eternity, so the perspective is not fixed (static).

The backgrounds in P:E however have a fixed (static) perspective, because they are prerendered.

In real time 3D the camera moves and the perspective changes accordingly (the chasm illustrates this quite well). This is impossible with a static background like the one being used P:E, which is one of the many shortcomings of using static, prerendered backgrounds.

True, here's what it looks like when you move the camera:

2a4ya9t.jpg

Retarded or a stubborn 2D old fag. Hmmm, i'm not sure.

Refusing to agree with yourself? I like it.

35mmjc9.gif
 

imweasel

Guest
True, here's what it looks like when you move the camera:
I said move the camera, i.e. move the camera parallel to the 2D plane / axis of the 3D projection and not rotate the camera, plane or axises. In other words, use the arrow keys to move the camera and change the viewing area....

Jesus Christ. Are you stubborn or are you really just a retard?
 

St. Toxic

Arcane
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
9,098
Location
Yemen / India
But that wouldn't actually show anything, as the perspective is fixed. Take any bitmap and drag it around, see if the perspective changes.

At the same time, the parts of your statement that aren't simply obvious to anyone with eyeballs, are basically bullshit.

This can only be achieved if the background is not static, i.e. the background must be dynamic, which of course requires real time 3D.

That's demonstratively untrue. You can create the same effect easily with layers of 2D-data.

This is one of the many shortcomings of using static, prerendered backgrounds.

Why would it be a negative trait? For some systems you might want uniform representation without depth, which 3D environments are notoriously bad at. Think along the lines of Company of Heroes or Men of War, where you're always at risk of accidentally positioning your units where their line of fire is obscured by terrain or objects in the terrain.
 

imweasel

Guest
But that wouldn't actually show anything, as the perspective is fixed. Take any bitmap and drag it around, see if the perspective changes.
Well, the perspective would of course not change, because it has a static perspective. So it does indeed show something, i.e. the static perspective.

Well, okay, I guess we just had a misunderstanding then. It's all cool.

EDIT: But real time 3D is still not useless with an isometric view. At least not if the camera can be moved parallel to the 2D plane / axis of the 3D projection. So this we still do not agree on.
 

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