Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #62: Production Milestone Report - Areas, Characters, Features

[Infinitron]

unhhh can we stop using Icewind Dale as our baseline

Why?

because Icewind Dale was fucking awful

Icewind Dale is the Project Eternity lead designer's main contribution to party-based fantasy roleplaying until now, so you might want to learn to appreciate its finer points

 

[crawlkill]

Icewind Dale is the Project Eternity lead designer's main contribution to party-based fantasy roleplaying until now, so you might want to learn to appreciate its finer points

well if PE turns out with great dialogue and a shittacular/meaningless combat/gameplay engine like IWD then I'll've more or less gotten what I expected from an IE knockoff

 

[Infinitron]

No. More skills covered = more active choice

so not the case in any absolute way. locking some dialogue options behind checks doesn't make a game more choozee or more reactive. it makes one playthrough differ more from another, sure, but only in a way the player doesn't usually even get to know about. one of my favorite game design moments in New Vegas was actually the goofy "YOU CAN'T USE THIS CHOICE" stat-too-low dialogue options.

I don't think you quite understand what "reactive" means.

 

[crawlkill]

I don't think you quite understand what "reactive" means.

it definitely means having a greyed-out dialogue option because my Animal Empathy numbars are too low, ey?

 

[Infinitron]

I don't think you quite understand what "reactive" means.

it definitely means having a greyed-out dialogue option because my Animal Empathy numbars are too low, ey?

Yes, it means the game world reacting to your choice of character build, not just to the actions you've performed. See - "Definition of an RPG", page 239, paragraph 6.

 

[Surf Solar]

unhhh can we stop using Icewind Dale as our baseline

Why?

because Icewind Dale was fucking awful

It wasn't.

 

[crawlkill]

Yes, it means the game world reacting to your choice of character build, not just to the actions you've performed. See - "Definition of an RPG", page 239, paragraph 6.

And then Infinitron replayed all of the classic RPGs and realized that no character build decisions make any difference in conversation anywhere outside of Torment, where everyone who knows the game just dumps every point into wisdom anyway. The world moved!

 

[Infinitron]

Yes, it means the game world reacting to your choice of character build, not just to the actions you've performed. See - "Definition of an RPG", page 239, paragraph 6.

And then Infinitron replayed all of the classic RPGs and realized that no character build decisions make any difference in conversation anywhere outside of Torment, where everyone who knows the game just dumps every point into wisdom anyway. The world moved!

First of all, Fallout, Arcanum.

Second of all, even in a game like Icewind Dale, that's not true. The folks at Black Isle loved their class checks.

 

[crawlkill]

The folks at Black Isle loved their class checks.

And you built your entire party from the start, so, uh...your...class check capacity was established from second one, and...and...

And Fallout conversations had science checks, medicine checks and speech checks. I love FO1 and 2 to death and have probably spent more time in them than in any other human pursuit, but they had science checks, medicine checks and speech checks. And every single one that showed up was always "the right choice that solves the problem," which was being objected to here. Seriously. New Vegas had more check-y dialogue than Real Fallout did.

 

[Infinitron]

The sound of goalposts being moved.

So, RPG combat sucks, skill checks suck. You sound like somebody who would rather play an "adventure game with C&C" than an RPG, crawlkill.

 

[crawlkill]

I like great dialogue? That was and remains the provenance of RPGs. I don't hate dialogue challenges, I just don't think they're fundamental. I'd like to see more -making sensible decisions- in dialogues than having stat-gated shit.

 

[Infinitron]

I like great dialogue? That was and remains the provenance of RPGs.

It wasn't always. RPGs used to be the "soulless sandbox dungeon crawling for nerds" genre. Adventure games were where you went for dialogue and story. JRPGs were also the kings of this for a while.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that even today something like The Walking Dead has better dialogue than most RPGs.

 

[crawlkill]

JRPGs were also the kings of this for a while.

I met the first JRPG I liked of my adult life in The World Ends With You, and that one was highly localized. I'd found an interview with the guy who'd translated it and lost it...sad day. But JRPGs are mostly (to my mind) crazed and terribly translated.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that even today something like The Walking Dead has better dialogue than most RPGs.

I loved TWDgame! But I think even Bioware games still have pretty good dialogue. They're just...a corrupt narrative paradigm. if something's funny? if it's clever? I can excuse a lot.

and when I said "was," I was talking about Infinity Engine games. just for the record.

 

[Excidium]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that even today something like The Walking Dead has better dialogue than most RPGs.

lol no it doesn't. There is barely any player agency in it

 

[Infinitron]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that even today something like The Walking Dead has better dialogue than most RPGs.

lol no it doesn't. There is barely any player agency in it

I'm not talking about agency. I'm talking about sheer literary writing quality.

 

[Zed]

Now You See Me

Ridonkalous. Mediocre acting, silly script, stupid twist.

EDIT: lol, wrong thread. or some mod fucked with me.
anyway I'll let it stand. don't watch this crap!

 

[Excidium]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that even today something like The Walking Dead has better dialogue than most RPGs.

lol no it doesn't. There is barely any player agency in it

I'm not talking about agency. I'm talking about sheer literary writing quality.

That is p. irrelevant to a CRPG but nevermind, I'm not even sure what is being argued here anymore

 

[Grunker]

Wow, even the convo UI is a throwback to the IE games. Not that I mind, but they're really cloning the Infinity Engine.

I bloody well hope so

 

[Athelas]

I didn't get past episode 1, but I though the writing of the Walking Dead was awful. The characters were either bland or caricatures, and the attempts to make you care about Clementine were laughable.

 

[crawlkill]

That is p. irrelevant to a CRPG but nevermind, I'm not even sure what is being argued here anymore

I know it's hard to read the entire thread, but that little sub-thread was...about good dialogue.

 

[Excidium]

Last time I posted before that it was, now it's about literary value or some shit

 

[Infinitron]

Last time I posted before that it was, now it's about literary value or some shit

o_O How do you determine if the dialogue is "good" in a movie or book?

Do that, and apply it to a game.

 

[Excidium]

RPGs aren't movies or books.

 

[Infinitron]

RPGs aren't movies or books.

Did I say they were? I'm explaining to you what criteria for "good dialogue" we're using here.

 

[Excidium]

The one that matters most for CRPGs and what we were talking about initially: player agency. What would be good in other media really doesn't matter for shit if you're just led along by the wrist through the story and asked for your opinion now and then.