Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #63: Stronghold Mechanics

[J_C]

Yea sure but everything is a waste of time instead "of, say, fixing bugs, or making a TB combat system"...

If you have read the update, you can clearly see that it is not a gimmick. How can you call a quite large and complex element of the game a gimmick?

gimmick
The fact that they expanded on it doesn't make it less gimmicky. It's there solely because it was a stretch goal, not because it's an essential part of the game.

Also, large element of the game? Skills are a large element of the game. The player's party is a large element of the game. Side Quests are a large element of the game, and the Stronghold is just one instance( with many smaller ones inside) of such. It's still not a systematic part of the game, like the use of skills or feats, that every player will have to take into consideration every time a wild stronghold appears. The stronghold's uses and minigames, are confined within the quest.

So, tell me it's not a gimmick when it has a similar systematic usage as skills or dialogue, or when its importance and consequences in the PE world/MQ go far beyond "it was a stretch goal." I'm not saying it's necessarily bad to add a stronghold, but I believe the limited resources should be instead used on something that betters the game as a whole.
.

So basicly what you are telling is that if something is not a core, essential part of the game, it is a gimmick? It is not. It's like saying that towns are just gimmicks. The stronghold is a big area, which has quests, a lot of benefits, added bonuses, extra activities which have an effect on the gameplay.

 

[norolim]

I'm not saying it's necessarily bad to add a stronghold, but I believe the limited resources should be instead used on something that betters the game as a whole.

For many gamers, including those regularly posting on the Codex, a stonghold does better the game as a whole. A game needs content in addition to its various systems and mechanics. And a stronghold is just that: content. Contrary to what you seem to be claiming, a stronghold is a valid and large element of a game, in the same way a city is. Like a city, it's a hub full of NPCs and POIs to interact with and quests to get. Would you say designing cities in an RPG game is a waste of time and resources, that could be used to on improving game systems? I'm sure you wouldn't. A game with only systems in it wouldn't not be very exciting to play. Even if the systems were excellent, because additional time had been devoted to perfecting them.

I get that. I didn't like the idea then, I don't like it now. A house for stashing items, crafting and letting the companions rest is more than enough

And this is the problem here. You don't like it. It's your personal preference. Now imagine if we started removing all elements of the game, somebody doesn't like. We would indeed be left with a skeleton of a game. I'm sure nobody would enjoy that.

When those resources could instead be spent to better or expand the scope of the game.

As explained before, a strongohld IS expanding the scope of the game, only in a way you don't like.

And btw, I would also prefer a simple house for storing gear. I'm not a fan od strongholds in games. I stopped playing NWN2 when they gave me Crossroad Keep.

EDIT: I see J_C beat me to it

 

[commie]

Shit's gonna be real bros...It gets the Order of Lenin from me. I wouldn't have forked over my life savings for the signed copy and 50 more clams on the Dex if I didn't believe in this!

Right?.......Right?

(insert ridiculing.gif here)

 

[Outlander]

Well, personally, this is the first piece of detailed news about P:E that actually got me excited about the game. I'm not particularly crazy about strongholds, since they are rarely done as such, but I really like what I'm reading. And for the people who don't like this, lol it was a stretchgoal, and maybe, just maybe, the whole thing could be optional for the player (besides actually getting the place), maybe then you can just forget about it if you want. That could open up other gameplay options, for example if you outright abandon your stronghold it could get occupied by other NPCs, but maybe you could still just rest there... or being attacked on sight.

Tim Cain

 

[MicoSelva]

I will be able to take prisoners (even if only a few times)? Hell yeah!

The whole stronghold concept sounds great.

 

[kenup]

So basicly what you are telling is that if something is not a core, essential part of the game, it is a gimmick? It is not. It's like saying that towns are just gimmicks. The stronghold is a big area, which has quests, a lot of benefits, added bonuses, extra activities which have an effect on the gameplay.

Read the fucking word description in the link. It's for appeal, it was a stretch goal, made just to gain funds; not because the game would be defficient without it, that's why it's a gimmick. It's there because it's a stretch goal, not because it was the original plan or because it was essential in the PE experience. All the activities are limited within the Stronghold's "quest". The Stronghold just has a lot of elements of its own, not affecting or being affected by the rest of the world.

For many gamers, including those regularly posting on the Codex, a stonghold does better the game as a whole. A game needs content in addition to its various systems and mechanics. And a stronghold is just that: content. Contrary to what you seem to be claiming, a stronghold is a valid and large element of a game, in the same way a city is. Like a city, it's a hub full of NPCs and POIs to interact with and quests to get. Would you say designing cities in an RPG game is a waste of time and resources, that could be used to on improving game systems? I'm sure you wouldn't. A game with only systems in it wouldn't not be very exciting to play. Even if the systems were excellent, because additional time had been devoted to perfecting them.

I guess Potatolandes should defend their Hungry customers.

You are comparing a city( a hub full of different quests and NPCs) to one side quest? Cities are, one would assume, a major part of the world, the lore, the quests, the story. How does one stronghold that the player might completely ignore is of equal importance to a city? For that matter why spend a similar amount of resources for the stronghold and an entire city, if that isn't a more core gameplay mechanic? This isn't even the NWN2 stronghold which, regardless of being well a designed mechanic or not( and whether one did anything with it or not), was an absolute necessity to go through in order to advance. I do want more and better content, which is exactly why I don't like a lot of resources being spent on one gloryfied home side quest instead of something else. The description doesn't give me the impression that it opens quests with anything irrelevant to improving the stronghold, or giving depth to the world. All they seem to be is, "Increase Prestige", "Increase Security", "Visitor X gives you Y benefits" etc. Pretty similar to bying furniture for a home in a bethesda game, but with more micromanagement. It's a side quest, and it drains more resources than most other side quests. Resources that could be used to add more content, improve the mechanics, make sure that bugs are fixed, give more depth to the world. Anything better than a glorified Sims home. Especially when Tim could instead be the counteract to Josh's boring and fun depleting balance acts( according to the glorious PE thread we have on the kodex at least ).

And this is the problem here. You don't like it. It's your personal preference. Now imagine if we started removing all elements of the game, somebody doesn't like. We would indeed be left with a skeleton of a game. I'm sure nobody would enjoy that.

Yes, it is my personal opinion that the Stronghold is a waste of resources; your point?
Where did I say that they should remove things for the sake of me not liking them? Adding things for the sake of adding is BS as well. It would be better to focus their limited resources elsewere. At the very least, that means they don't spend more on the Shold than it's needed. At most, that means replace things, or better more important stuff, not leave the game empty. And it definitely doesn't mean removing something because someone simply doesn't like it( and it's a stretch goal anyway, it won't be removed). They should take into account why someone, or a group, doesn't like something though. Check the update about weapon repairs on that.

As explained before, a strongohld IS expanding the scope of the game, only in a way you don't like.

Yeah, I can see the scope of the game expanded to a real estate simulator, in PE2. In PE though, it only expands one thing, and that is the time it takes to complete the Player Home quest. It would increase the "scope of the game" if, for example, its status( and the player's status as its lord) affected the reaction of people outside the hold and had- logical- consequences(or in reverse, people not inherintly relevant to the Shold, affeted what resources could come your way). I'm not saying this is a good or bad idea, just that currently the Shold doesn't expand the "scope of the game." As it is, everything relevant to the stronghold stays in the stronghold.

And thanks for ignoring 90% of the post. Once again, I'm not saying Player home Sholds are inherently bad. I don't personally like them, but that doesn't make them bad as an option or a major gameplay element. What makes this one "bad", is that this is just one isolated instance. One side quest, out of many. And they spend more resources for this one overglorified player home side quest than they should. They have a really good Systems designer, Tim Cain, and they waste him on the player home quest. They have limited resources, they should try making the game work, and focus on their original promise of making a good isometric RPG, rather than a bethfag player home with radiant mini quests. That's what makes it "bad".

Lastly, Obsidian does have a reputation with bugs. Focusing on fixing that reputation, coupled with succesfully launching a good isometric RPG, might be a tiny bit more important for continuing the possible incline, instead of one extended Hearthfire DLC quest.

 

[Infinitron]

Just because something is a stretch goal doesn't mean it can't be incorporated to become a major design element that is more than just a "side quest". The second city is a stretch goal too, after all.

 

[Delterius]

Odds are its amongst the biggest quest hubs in the game and its somehow a gimmick.

 

[kenup]

Just because something is a stretch goal doesn't mean it can't be incorporated to become a major design element that is more than just a "side quest".

Gotta love people reading just one line in the post. I didn't say a stretch goal can't be incoporated as a major element. I said a Super Player Home is a gimmick. Which I already said being a gimmick isn't a problem by it self. It's the resource spending on it that it's troubling. J_C just got caught up on me calling it that. Tell me how this is a major element and more than just an overglorified home side quest.

Odds are its amongst the biggest quest hubs in the game and its somehow a gimmick.

Tell me where they say it's one of the biggest quest hubs. And please, no quests that are just about increasing Shold prestige, taxes, or defend the castle or whatever.

Confirmed. Different character classes are gimmicks, since they were stretchgoals. The stronghold has a lot of functions, and according to the update it has a quite a lot of content in it.

Nice strawman about the classes. I never said it didn't have its own content and functions. I said it doesn't add much outside of its own realm.

 

[J_C]

So basicly what you are telling is that if something is not a core, essential part of the game, it is a gimmick? It is not. It's like saying that towns are just gimmicks. The stronghold is a big area, which has quests, a lot of benefits, added bonuses, extra activities which have an effect on the gameplay.

Read the fucking word description in the link. It's for appeal, it was a stretch goal, made just to gain funds; not because the game would be defficient without it, that's why it's a gimmick. It's there because it's a stretch goal, not because it was the original plan or because it was essential in the PE experience. All the activities are limited within the Stronghold's "quest". The Stronghold just has a lot of elements of its own, not affecting or being affected by the rest of the world.i

Confirmed. Different character classes are gimmicks, since they were stretchgoals. The stronghold has a lot of functions, and according to the update it has a quite a lot of content in it.

 

[Infinitron]

kenup You're making assumptions about the stronghold for which there is no evidence yet.

How about that megadungeon? 15 levels of gimmick? We just don't know yet.

 

[kenup]

kenup You're making assumptions about the stronghold for which there is no evidence yet.

It's a player home, what assumptions? As long as they have limited resources, wasting them on glorified player housing is BS. Since when are player homes important in good RPGs? They should make sure the game works first, then add a player house.

How about that megadungeon? 15 levels of gimmick? We just don't know yet.

Yes, it's a gimmick. That doesn't mean it won't be enjoyable.

 

[Infinitron]

It's a player home, what assumptions?

...case in point.

 

[tuluse]

The stronghold has no effect on the rest of the game!

Except you can use it to craft items to use in the rest of the game.

And you can boost your stats there, which are used in the rest of the game.

And you can keep prisoners in the stronghold, prisoners taken from the rest of the game.

What have the Romans ever done for us?

 

[Indranys]

Hmmmm...

In b4 Project: Suikoden

New quest acquired:
>Help your castle chef bro to win the cooking contest, biatch.
>Collect seeds for your farmers.

 

[Bulba]

what makes you think that the stronghold will be less enjoyable than the 15 lvl dungeon?

 

[norolim]

You are comparing a city( a hub full of different quests and NPCs) to one side quest? Cities are, one would assume, a major part of the world, the lore, the quests, the story. How does one stronghold that the player might completely ignore is of equal importance to a city?

And what stops players from completely ignoring a city (e.g. the streach goal second city)? A city is interesting for players because there are incentives to visit it, designed by the developers. Not just because it is there. Cities, strongholds and megadungeons are just locations and their importance in the game world is decided based on the amount and hierarchy of the gameplay content available in them. Now let's see: we don't know whether the second big city or the megadungeon will have any quests related to the main story. They may both have numerous POIs, NPCs and side-quests all of which will be optional. Same as the activities in the stronghold.
Why do you assume there will be no lore associated with the stronghold? It might be an ancient castle full of mysteries just waiting for the player to discover.
How do you know there will be no story realted elements in the SH? Prisoners are an excellent mechanic to introduce story related gameplay to the stronghold.
And why do you keep reffering the SH as a single side quest? It's as if you called WWII a battle. If you base your argument on such a distortion of facts, the argument is inherently invalid.

Resources that could be used to add more content, improve the mechanics, make sure that bugs are fixed, give more depth to the world.

Again. You fail to see, that adding a stronghold means adding more content and depth (through activities associated with the SH). The main problem in your case is that you don't like this kind of content to the point that you feel you need to call it "a glorified Sims home" (which it obviously isn't). The fact that you or several other people don't like this kind of content, doesn't automatically make it worse or not worth the resources. There are entire games based around the concept of managing a Stronghold. And although I believe such things should be done with proper proportions, so that an RPG remains an RPG, adding elements of other genres to RPGs increases their depth.

Yes, it is my personal opinion that the Stronghold is a waste of resources; your point?

See above.

It would increase the "scope of the game" if, for example, its status( and the player's status as its lord) affected the reaction of people outside the hold and had- logical- consequences(or in reverse, people not inherintly relevant to the Shold, affeted what resources could come your way).

How do you know it won't?

 

[Delterius]

Tell me where they say it's one of the biggest quest hubs. And please, no quests that are just about increasing Shold prestige, taxes, or defend the castle or whatever.

"Tell me how it is possible this place where there are multiple quests could be one of the biggest hubs. And please, no quests that are related to it at all."

 

[Dorateen]

The potential to have our very own guantanamo bay is pretty sweet.

 

[Lorica]

Maybe it's because it's always weird when games whose main attraction is to roam around engaging in shenanigans try to introduce a sedentary element. Like with San Andreas when you were suddenly called up to protect yo turf. Or the ending of Conan where he's all grumpy about being a king because now he's no longer an adventurer but forced to engage in peasant taxation minigames.

"It little profits that an idle king,
By this still hearth, among these barren crags,
Matched with an agèd wife, I mete and dole
Unequal laws unto a savage race,
That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me."

Eh?

 

[Roguey]

And this is the problem here. You don't like it. It's your personal preference. Now imagine if we started removing all elements of the game, somebody doesn't like. We would indeed be left with a skeleton of a game. I'm sure nobody would enjoy that.

Josh feels the same way.
http://spring.me/JESawyer/q/177439741547934762

That applies to every aspect of game play, including combat. A lot of gamers separate "mini-games" from other types of game play as though there is something inherently special or negative about it.

There are people who don't enjoy going through combat in games -- at all. Hell, there are game designers who don't enjoy combat. There are people who don't enjoy conversations. The solution should not be to remove those elements of game play because some people don't enjoy them. The goal of systems/mechanics designers is to make those aspects of the game enjoyable to those who are open to enjoying them. If you start designing games around things that subsets of players don't like, you won't have much left to play.

In this case the mini-game is stronghold management.

 

[Serious_Business]

i want to like this, but for some reason i don't.

How is your personnal life doing

Yeah well I don't have time for this crap

 

[Scruffy]

w...what?

 

[kenup]

"Tell me how it is possible this place where there are multiple quests could be one of the biggest hubs. And please, no quests that are related to it at all."

So you don't have anything... Good to know.

Why do you assume there will be no lore associated with the stronghold? It might be an ancient castle full of mysteries just waiting for the player to discover.
How do you know there will be no story realted elements in the SH? Prisoners are an excellent mechanic to introduce story related gameplay to the stronghold.

Because no such info was given. Obviously, they wouldn't want to floud us in spoilers. But, isn't it more of a leap to assume there is something when there is no evidence? That is an argument from ignorance. I'll concede that the prisoners might be interesting, but it still shouldn't need the whole building and managing a SH thing.

And why do you keep reffering the SH as a single side quest? It's as if you called WWII a battle. If you base your argument on such a distortion of facts, the argument is inherently invalid.

I don't mean side quest as in a single log entry. Rather the whole proccess used to calculate your SH's state, events, available quests etc. All the possible quests, that were hinted at, start from and surround one object of a class of objects, that of Managing The Stronghold.

Again. You fail to see, that adding a stronghold means adding more content and depth (through activities associated with the SH). The main problem in your case is that you don't like this kind of content to the point that you feel you need to call it "a glorified Sims home" (which it obviously isn't). The fact that you or several other people don't like this kind of content, doesn't automatically make it worse or not worth the resources. There are entire games based around the concept of managing a Stronghold. And although I believe such things should be done with proper proportions, so that an RPG remains an RPG, adding elements of other genres to RPGs increases their depth.

Yes, there are games about managing a Stronghold. This still doesn't change this game to a SH manager. I don't say don't add things. But managing a SH in an RPG should be secondary to character progression( skills, spells etc), realizing the world, characters, C&C( and with Obsidian's history with bugs, on bug fixing). They should use their resources there first and foremost, not an entire system on managing a SH.

Excuse me for wanting an RPG focusing its resources on RPG elements.

How do you know it won't?

See bolded answer at the top.

Anyway, I'm still standing by my original point. Waste of resources. They should focus on making a good RPG, and fixing bugs, than trying to add an ambitious secondary element.

 

[2house2fly]

By calling it a waste of resources you're saying that the resources that are/will be allocated to writing, quest design and QA are currently not sufficient. That seems like a bit of a leap, when there is no evidence.