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Ranting about the decline of Vampirism/Vampires in RPG's.

RaggleFraggle

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, or they treat vampires as glorified mages (VTMB).

The unique "mageesque" clan in the game is Tremere. But yes, vampires has lots of supernatural abilities in VtMB as they have in most vampire myths and legends.
Yes, vampire stereotypes as set by Dracula give them a laundry list of superpowers. Some authors gave them even more beyond that. It’s tradition by now. I don’t see why this is a point of contention. I think it keeps them varied for video game settings

I think werewolves suffer the opposite problem where they have too few stereotypical superpowers to remain interesting for very long.
 

notpl

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Werewolves in the world of darkness have just as much going on as vampires, supernaturally-speaking, but for some reason nobody cares about them. Only video game was a hilariously bad hack and slash a few years back.
 
Vatnik Wumao
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Werewolves in the world of darkness have just as much going on as vampires, supernaturally-speaking, but for some reason nobody cares about them.
Speaking about vampires and werewolves in general, vamps just have the whole romanticism angle going for them that has been enshrined into pop culture (with various tropes, from ye olde vamp aristocrats to social outcasts of one type or another in more modern nights). Werewolves meanwhile are usually depicted simply as dumb beasts and the various films that have been done about them (e.g. Dog Soldiers, The Howling series, An American Werewolf in London & its shitty sequel) tend to be quite mediocre monster flicks.

Don't know much about werewolves in WoD, but I wasn't particularly interested in their lore since it seemed to be centered around hippie shit (at a first glance anyway).
 

RaggleFraggle

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Werewolves in the world of darkness have just as much going on as vampires, supernaturally-speaking, but for some reason nobody cares about them. Only video game was a hilariously bad hack and slash a few years back.
I couldn’t imagine why. /s

I can totally imagine tons of reasons. The ecofascism, the racism, the cultural appropriation, the demonization of science, the demonization of human thought, the furry sex rituals, the spiritual incest babies named for a real ethnic group, the dogfucking bestiality, the feminazis who think society went to shit because a Captain Planet villain told men how babies were made, the nazi werewolves (whose support of nazis makes no sense considering their actual beliefs), the cannibalism, the demonization of Christianity, the New Age-inspired bullshit, the absolutely shitty historical research, etc. The game is problematic af no matter what your political leaning.

Don't know much about werewolves in WoD, but I wasn't particularly interested in their lore since it seemed to be centered around hippie shit (at a first glance anyway).
Seconded. I’ve done deep dives and it’s garbage. Of course the fans will say it’s the bestest ever, but you know how fans are. Biased af.
 
Last edited:

notpl

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Werewolves in the world of darkness have just as much going on as vampires, supernaturally-speaking, but for some reason nobody cares about them. Only video game was a hilariously bad hack and slash a few years back.
I couldn’t imagine why. /s

I can totally imagine tons of reasons. The ecofascism, the racism, the cultural appropriation, the demonization of science, the demonization of human thought, the furry sex rituals, the spiritual incest babies named for a real ethnic group, the dogfucking bestiality, the feminazis who think society went to shit because a Captain Planet villain told men how babies were made, the nazi werewolves (whose support of nazis makes no sense considering their actual beliefs), the cannibalism, the demonization of Christianity, the New Age-inspired bullshit, the absolutely shitty historical research, etc. The game is problematic af no matter what your political leaning.

Don't know much about werewolves in WoD, but I wasn't particularly interested in their lore since it seemed to be centered around hippie shit (at a first glance anyway).
Seconded. I’ve done deep dives and it’s garbage. Of course the fans will say it’s the bestest ever, but you know how fans are. Biased af.
I mean, are you suggesting V:tM is painstakingly historical and culturally relevant? Because despite also being insanely stupid it's very popular and has been adapted across all sorts of media. Being stupid is hardly a disqualifier for success and market penetration.
 
Vatnik Wumao
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I mean, are you suggesting V:tM is painstakingly historical and culturally relevant? Because despite also being insanely stupid it's very popular and has been adapted across all sorts of media. Being stupid is hardly a disqualifier for success and market penetration.
VtM mainly builds upon preexisting tropes which makes it appealing even to normies, WoD's werewolf-themed setting on the other hand is much more original in how it chooses to give depth to preexisting werewolf lore. And going by how RaggleFraggle described it, the way they went about it is certainly not something that could generate the same sort of mass appeal as VtM did. It's just too off-putting for too many kinds of people, me included.
 

Zeriel

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V:TM suffers from the same problem as other turn of the century horror franchises like the original Supernatural show: the world just got too gay and unspooky. It's not the same having people research spooky shit on smartphones as opposed to in musty libraries, the masquerade takes on a slightly ridiculous quality in the age of social media, etc. It's golden age was all very much tied up in a particular time and place and that's never coming back.

The current social justice pozz infiltrating everything sure doesn't help of course, but that's only icing on top.
 

Harthwain

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V:TM suffers from the same problem as other turn of the century horror franchises like the original Supernatural show: the world just got too gay and unspooky. It's not the same having people research spooky shit on smartphones as opposed to in musty libraries, the masquerade takes on a slightly ridiculous quality in the age of social media, etc. It's golden age was all very much tied up in a particular time and place and that's never coming back.

The current social justice pozz infiltrating everything sure doesn't help of course, but that's only icing on top.
I disagree - the world didn't change that much. Vampires hiding in plain sight remains a great setup for a secret cabal ruling the world and "explaining" all the weird occurrences, even including social media or smartphones. If you want the classic spookness (and not just an unsettling revelation) then you want gothic, which is a whole another time period.
 

Cryomancer

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I disagree - the world didn't change that much. Vampires hiding in plain sight remains a great setup for a secret cabal ruling the world and "explaining" all the weird occurrences, even including social media or smartphones. If you want the classic spookness (and not just an unsettling revelation) then you want gothic, which is a whole another time period.

Also, the number of people who know that they exist is greater than 0. There are complete societies dedicated to hunt vampires.
 

Humbaba

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I own a tattered copy of the third edition rulebook that I bought when it was still sold in stores. In a box set with space marine and dark eldar models. They’re pain vampire space elves.
Should've read it sometime then. If we're talking about the faction that's the most vampire inspired, it's arguably Blood Angels but definitely not Dark Eldar, that's not up for debate.

You know what I meant, pedant.
It's not pedantic, it's how the lore works. Besides, you can't classify just anything that feeds on whatever as a vampire, vampires feed on blood and nothing else. If it feeds on emotion, pain or whatever then it's not a vampire. At best you can say it's "vampiric" but that's neither here nor there. If that weren't true then I'd be a bread vampire because I eat bread.
 

RaggleFraggle

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It's not pedantic, it's how the lore works. Besides, you can't classify just anything that feeds on whatever as a vampire, vampires feed on blood and nothing else. If it feeds on emotion, pain or whatever then it's not a vampire. At best you can say it's "vampiric" but that's neither here nor there. If that weren't true then I'd be a bread vampire because I eat bread.
Words can have multiple meanings and meanings shift over time. The word “vampire” has grown to encompass a variety of folkloric and fictional monsters.

Theresa Bane, in the preface of Encyclopedia of Vampire Mythology, explains the issues with trying to define the word in light of an increasingly global corpus. A psychic vampire is still a vampire.

Heck, the original Eastern European vampires don’t suck blood at all. They generally sit in their graves and project their specters to drain life force from the living remotely. By your logic, they aren’t vampires. So excuse me if I don’t find your argument convincing.
 

RaggleFraggle

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I mean, are you suggesting V:tM is painstakingly historical and culturally relevant? Because despite also being insanely stupid it's very popular and has been adapted across all sorts of media. Being stupid is hardly a disqualifier for success and market penetration.
VtM mainly builds upon preexisting tropes which makes it appealing even to normies, WoD's werewolf-themed setting on the other hand is much more original in how it chooses to give depth to preexisting werewolf lore. And going by how RaggleFraggle described it, the way they went about it is certainly not something that could generate the same sort of mass appeal as VtM did. It's just too off-putting for too many kinds of people, me included.
V:TM suffers from the same problem as other turn of the century horror franchises like the original Supernatural show: the world just got too gay and unspooky. It's not the same having people research spooky shit on smartphones as opposed to in musty libraries, the masquerade takes on a slightly ridiculous quality in the age of social media, etc. It's golden age was all very much tied up in a particular time and place and that's never coming back.

The current social justice pozz infiltrating everything sure doesn't help of course, but that's only icing on top.

Yeah, VtM has just as many problematic issues with its design but they get swept under the rug. The setting wasn’t well designed to begin with, it quickly got bloated af and crowded out any room for creativity or innovation. They ran out of ideas after the first 5 or so years and everything since has just been repackaging the same old stuff. It’s not culturally relevant (despite token attempts over the years to clean it up for modern times, including an AU reboot that tried to inject a sense of mystery and wonder back into the IP, all of which proved controversial with fans) and its popularity has waned immensely from its heyday in the 90s. Most of the video game adaptations have sucked and they’re probably the most famous and profitable part of the franchise. I’m sick of seeing Paradox flooding Steam and itch.io with predictable cookie-cutter shovelware.

I would love to see new creators make their own original IPs. Urban fantasy offers a huge canvas that I haven’t seen explored very often outside prose (which is mostly romance, go figure). This is a genre where you can have fantasy tropes like angels assisting the meek, vampires and werewolves stalking the night, and wizards selling spells… in a modern-ish setting with guns, computers and shit. Need I say more?
 

Humbaba

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Words can have multiple meanings and meanings shift over time. The word “vampire” has grown to encompass a variety of folkloric and fictional monsters.
As I've said, neither Dark Eldar nor dementors nor anything else you listed are considered vampires by any sane person, just because they "feed" on some sort of thing. By the same token, something like an Orc is not a human just because they're also humanoid.

Theresa Bane, in the preface of Encyclopedia of Vampire Mythology,
Who? At least name drop a person from your Google search with a wikipedia page.

A psychic vampire is still a vampire.
See above.

Heck, the original Eastern European vampires don’t suck blood at all
Untrue, because there are variants on the vampire myth of which there are those that do drink blood. Additionally, as has been stated already in this thread, we don't care much about the "original" vampire, because that's not what fantasy vampires are based on anyway.

By your logic, they aren’t vampires.
Nope, not by the general standards of the fantasy genre.
 

Humbaba

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*posts a horribly undersourced wiki stub like that was even the point*

So no arguments? Alright then. Please return to whatever subreddit you escaped from and don't bother me anymore. I won't react to the lame zinger you're gonna direct at me after this, so don't bother.
 

Fowyr

Arcane
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Werewolves in the world of darkness have just as much going on as vampires, supernaturally-speaking, but for some reason nobody cares about them. Only video game was a hilariously bad hack and slash a few years back.
DreamForge Intertainment (that made many great games) was killed by making Werewolf: The Apocalypse - The Heart of Gaia when its publisher bankrupted.
Werewolf_the_apocalypse_pc_game.jpg
 

RaggleFraggle

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Werewolves in the world of darkness have just as much going on as vampires, supernaturally-speaking, but for some reason nobody cares about them. Only video game was a hilariously bad hack and slash a few years back.
DreamForge Intertainment (that made many great games) was killed by making Werewolf: The Apocalypse - The Heart of Gaia when its publisher bankrupted.
Werewolf_the_apocalypse_pc_game.jpg
The cutscenes were later leaked on youtube. The plot was… a generic superhero plot with a werewolf skin. The main character’s family is murdered by Captain Planet villains, he’s rescued by ecoterrorist werewolves, he learns he’s from a lost line of werewolf heroes (which was already a cliché backstory in the tabletop by this point, but that’s a nitpick tbh), he defeats the villain of the arc and the story ends.

It’s not terrible in isolation (at least not anymore than typical Captain Planet), but it’s not what I would call great fiction. The tabletop company actually had the gall to claim their game was deeper and more adult than D&D, when a plot like that would be perfectly at home in D&D (or Urban Arcana if you want to be pedantic).
 

Fowyr

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The cutscenes were later leaked on youtube. The plot was… a generic superhero plot with a werewolf skin. The main character’s family is murdered by Captain Planet villains, he’s rescued by ecoterrorist werewolves, he learns he’s from a lost line of werewolf heroes (which was already a cliché backstory in the tabletop by this point, but that’s a nitpick tbh), he defeats the villain of the arc and the story ends.
It’s not terrible in isolation (at least not anymore than typical Captain Planet), but it’s not what I would call great fiction. The tabletop company actually had the gall to claim their game was deeper and more adult than D&D, when a plot like that would be perfectly at home in D&D (or Urban Arcana if you want to be pedantic).
Pity. DreamForge always tried to make their plots interesting and with curious twists. Just remember Summoning or Anvil of Dawn.
 

Zeriel

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Werewolves in the world of darkness have just as much going on as vampires, supernaturally-speaking, but for some reason nobody cares about them. Only video game was a hilariously bad hack and slash a few years back.

Eh, the ecoterrorist setting is pretty fucking dumb. Werewolves are supposed to be scary monsters, not do-gooding faggots. That whole design choice sabotaged the setting, no matter how much people will say "ahh but there is these guys in a niche over here who are not like that". It would be like if in 90s VTM the Camarilla had been WTO-protesting socialists as a mainline rule.
 

Cryomancer

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Yep. Honestly, if Dreamforge had launched that WW game, it would't be as good as Ravenloft : Strahd possession.
 
Unwanted
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Vamps were always faggot shit, i remember emos larping as them during early 2000's, much earlier than Twilight.
 

RaggleFraggle

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Werewolves in the world of darkness have just as much going on as vampires, supernaturally-speaking, but for some reason nobody cares about them. Only video game was a hilariously bad hack and slash a few years back.

Eh, the ecoterrorist setting is pretty fucking dumb. Werewolves are supposed to be scary monsters, not do-gooding faggots. That whole design choice sabotaged the setting, no matter how much people will say "ahh but there is these guys in a niche over here who are not like that". It would be like if in 90s VTM the Camarilla had been WTO-protesting socialists as a mainline rule.
The idea of werewolves as dark superheroes isn’t an inherently bad one. The bad execution was building the entire premise around that as opposed to giving groups options (a problem that was suffered by the AU reboot, which made the werewolves Sumerian and fight the Evil Dead but struggled to do anything outside of that). There’s a bunch of possible ways you could handle werewolves, even in the same setting. For example:
https://thepack.network/thepackboard/viewtopic.php?t=2132
https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Lupine_theriomorph
https://ospreypublishing.com/store/osprey-adventures/dark-osprey/werewolves-a-hunter-s-guide
 

Generic-Giant-Spider

Guest
Only true chad vampire is Kain from Blood Omen.
 

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