Vapourware Realms Beyond: Ashes of the Fallen - Chaos Chronicles reborn and dead again

[fantadomat]

Bester do you work in law? You post seam strangely insightful,pretty nice read.

 

[Vault Dweller]

... forced buyout....

You can't just say we're buying you out, here's 5k, now get the fuck out. It's simply not a thing. Yes, majority shareholders do have a right to get rid of a minority shareholder if he's shitting on their carpet or just being a problem in general, but minority shareholders do have rights and options as well. Look up Oppression of the Minority Shareholder and Oppression Remedy.

 

[:Flash:]

... forced buyout....

You can't just say we're buying you out, here's 5k, now get the fuck out. It's simply not a thing. Yes, majority shareholders do have a right to get rid of a minority shareholder if he's shitting on their carpet or just being a problem in general, but minority shareholders do have rights and options as well. Look up Oppression of the Minority Shareholder and Oppression Remedy.

It depends on what's in the shareholder's agreement. The law (at least in Germany) assumes that shareholders are grown-ups who enter into the agreement knowing what they are doing, so you cannot formulate rules at to what can happen and what can't without having read the agreement.

 

[:Flash:]

Just give 2% of the company to the graphics guy as a tie breaker and this situation wouldn't exist.

Chris Avellone had a share in Obshitian and was bought out for some funny amount like $5k. There are no mechanisms to prevent the tyranny of the majority. If one dude and his beta orbiter are the majority, it's their company. If two dudes can vote to kick out the third guy, nobody is safe, someone will get kicked out just out of greed 1 day before release. It's all shit.

I didn't mean they could kick him out of being a shareholder, but if they had a tie breaker, they could kick him out of being CEO. Or if the tie breaker joins him, that's OK, too, at least a decision is being made.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

You can't just say we're buying you out, here's 5k, now get the fuck out. It's simply not a thing.

If the shareholder's agreement says it's a thing, then it's a thing. I understand that it often allows it, for a seemingly good reason.

Small companies often start with just a couple of people. If one of them stops working, it's not fair that he should reap the rewards of everyone else's labor, so it's easier to just votekick him than to prove that he's sitting on his ass. So they have this mechanism in place.

Obsidian had this in their agreement, and the buyout was set at a fixed price. Chris claims he often asked to reevaluate the price, because Obsidian grew to a large sized company from just a few people, but Feargus always said "eh, later". Then Chris was bought out for 5k.

For companies where they don't have this in their agreement, it'll depend on corporate law I guess. Not an expert. There's a thing called super-majority for example. Who knows what it empowers the owners to do in what countries.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

This is your fault for trusting g*rmoids you idiots.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It depends on what's in the shareholder's agreement. The law (at least in Germany) assumes that shareholders are grown-ups who enter into the agreement knowing what they are doing, so you cannot formulate rules at to what can happen and what can't without having read the agreement.

Unless the agreement explicitly states that you can buy out any minority shareholder for 5k, the law of the land (California) will apply.

Obsidian had this in their agreement, and the buyout was set at a fixed price. Chris claims he often asked to reevaluate the price, because Obsidian grew to a large sized company from just a few people, but Feargus always said "eh, later". Then Chris was bought out for 5k.

5k is such a ridiculously low amount that the story doesn't make any fucking sense. Why even bother trying to get a start-up off the ground if you can be dismissed at any point for 5k? Even avg severance pay for a senior employee is much higher than that (a week pay x number of years). A key officer (but not a co-owner) would be entitled to two weeks pay per year served, more if lawyers get involved. Chris worked there since 2003 so that's 15 years or so, if he was making 200k a year in his last year, he would have been entitled to 114k severance (at least).

Anyway, in most buyouts lawyers are involved to negotiate a fair pay and re-evaluate the value of the business is necessary. It's not something you humbly ask for and then accept some antique value. If Chris didn't feel like fighting and said pay me what you want, that's on him, but I highly doubt that he walked away with nothing.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

if he was making 200k a year in his last year, he would have been entitled to 114k severance (at least).

Doesn't sound correct. Owners aren't employees. They can pay themselves zero money for years, they're not entitled to anything.

It's true that owners can pay themselves a salary in addition to dividends, theoretically. But why? Taxes on salaries are huge. Sometimes owners pay themselves a minimum wage, because that one is cheap on taxes, and it's a proof of a salary for banks, etc. Anyway, that would only qualify them for unemployment. There is no law in California requiring employers to pay severance packages.

 

[Vault Dweller]

if he was making 200k a year in his last year, he would have been entitled to 114k severance (at least).

Doesn't sound correct. Owners aren't employees. They can pay themselves zero money for years, they're not entitled to anything.

An owner that simply takes profit isn't an employee (i.e. someone who buys a burger or coffee franchise but doesn't actually work there). An owner who has duties and responsibility, like say Chief Creative Officer who does design and writing, is in fact an employee who happened to be a co-owner. It's not just semantics as there's a significant tax and legal difference, for both the person in question and the business.

It's true that owners can pay themselves a salary in addition to dividends, theoretically. But why?

First and foremost, there are two parts in this equation: the person and the business. If you have a business that generates 1 mil a year, you need to worry about two sets of taxes: corporate and personal. Thus a small gain in the personal tax area might be a bigger loss in the corporate tax department. Salaries are an expense that reduces your corporate taxable income, dividends aren't. They don't factor in when determining an RRSP/401k contribution room either.

Second, there are many different ways to reduce tax on salaries on the corporate side. For example, if you want to pay your executive or owner 250k a year, you can give him a relatively small base, let's say 50-90k, and a % of monthly revenue that would add another 150-200k. That 50-90k will be taxed hard but the flexible income that's pretty much set in stone if the business is stable is considered commission and you can write off against it like there's no tomorrow. It's a major bonus as you can cut your tax rate in half.

There is no law in California requiring employers to pay severance packages.

Since the main reason employers pay severance is to avoid being sued for termination, I doubt there are many companies that don't define severance pay in their employment contracts. It's far cheaper to pay someone a week or two per year than risk going to court (first, you can lose, second, even if you win, it's still gonna cost you as much or more).

 

[Jenkem]

Black Geyser will come out before this fucking game.

Think about that...

 

[Ontopoly]

Black Geyser will come out before this fucking game.

Think about that...

Assuming either of them ever come out

 

[Blackthorne]

at least Blackthorne survived.. could consider them having a small helping hand in it.

Legit, between the last few years of dialysis stays, the many hospital stays and then the completely unexpected kidney transplant in November... I'm holding on. And the codex helped out a lot, more than I can say really.

 

[Aemar]

https://steamcommunity.com/app/762550/discussions/0/3113646913567666989/

Recently in the Discord the lead writer revealed their tentative backup plan (which they may have to pursue since it seems they've been unable to reach a satisfactory deal with a publisher / private investor). I'll try to summarize the situation:

As it stands now RB has an engine / toolset which still has some bugs and missing features but is functional. They have a large amount of art assets created . And of course they have created some quests created for the main campaign. The problem is that the game they want to make (and what they pitched on Kickstarter) is supposed to be a pretty big open world CRPG and they don't feel the game is ready to start selling the game on Early Access (i.e., it wouldn't be nearly enough content to justify the price tag) and rushing to EA now would likely result in many negative reviews which would almost certainly kill the game.

So the proposed backup plan is to create shorter standalone adventure modules (think Never Nights premium modules) that they could feasibly finish in the not too distant future. People who backed on Kickstarter would be entitled to free keys and they'd sell to everyone else who is interested a reasonable price. (E.g., ~$10 for a campaign that takes maybe 10ish hours to play through). Thus they'd hopefully start to generate some income which could be used to fund further development of the main game. Also, any bug fixes and improvements made to the engine would ultimately benefit the main game.

It's still tentative because both of the company's co-owners first need to agree to proceed with the plan. But it seems the only alternative is to keep working on the game in their spare time and pursue a publisher deal in the hopes of being able to resume full-time development. But I think it's a solid enough plan. And the nice thing about it is because they'd be self-contained stories, unlike the Early Access version, playing it wouldn't spoil the story of the main game.

daveyd

 

[underground nymph]

I approve, proceed with the plan.

 

[NJClaw]

Black Geyser will come out before this fucking game.

Think about that...

Assuming either of them ever come out

Oh, Black Geyser WILL come out. Have you ever tried to hold in a black geyser for too long? All I can tell you is it ain't pretty, Onto. It ain't pretty at all.

 

[Hobo Elf]

There's nothing wrong with making smaller and cheaper modules anyway. I quite enjoy some of the NWN prem modules. Something like that but in a better engine with better gameplay would be cool.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I would spend on modules and donate for preorder future modules.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Well, if they release anything and keep working on their project, everything is forgiven!
I might even disable the bomb i set in their tower...

 

[Dorateen]

They should just make Ashes of the Fallen in the Knights of the Chalice 2 editor.

 

[:Flash:]

https://steamcommunity.com/app/762550/discussions/0/3113646913567666989/

It's still tentative because both of the company's co-owners first need to agree to proceed with the plan.

Well, he forgot to mention that they have absolutely no contact with the second co-owner.

 

[daveyd]

https://steamcommunity.com/app/762550/discussions/0/3113646913567666989/

It's still tentative because both of the company's co-owners first need to agree to proceed with the plan.

Well, he forgot to mention that they have absolutely no contact with the second co-owner.

I didn't mention because I'm not sure if that's still the case. Last time I heard from Hobgoblin was the end of January and he said it was not fair to say CEO was ghosting him. I suppose it's possible the guy has told him he's going through some family emergency or something and needs some time to sort it before he can focus on the game again.

There is also a guy in the Discord who has a cousin in Germany who works as a lawyer. He's planning to talk to Hobgoblin so he can be aware of his options if the co-owner has still not communicated with him.

They have said something about waiting until the end of March for news. Their main writer / designer said it's possible they could begin working on that module plan by then. We'll see.

 

[NJClaw]

suppose it's possible the guy has told him he's going through some family emergency or something and needs some time to sort it before he can focus on the game again.

There is also a guy in the Discord who has a cousin in Germany who works as a lawyer.

They have said something about waiting until the end of March for news. Their main writer / designer said it's possible they could begin working on that module plan by then. We'll see.

This thread is constantly pushing the envelope to redefine the meaning of "coping".

 

[HoboForEternity]

Just like. . Let go man. The more you are in denial the more it hurts.

 

[daveyd]

Yes, the situation is very bleak. I'm not denying that.

I'm just saying, they have a backup plan. It could work. It's also possible even if they go forward with the plan and release a module on Steam but then doesn't sell because people think it's shit.

I just don't see any point in prematurely declaring the game dead when the developer is still saying they're not giving up. It may be more accurate to say it's in suspended animation or on life support. In a world where Grimoire got released all things are possible.

 

[Koolz]

I had completely forgotten about this game! I am the one that pushed this over the edge to make it's funding on kickstarter and that amount they made was pathetic. I think it was 150 thousand.

If you are wondering where the money has gone it went to making a beautiful map for the game.

Can you imagine being a composer working your butt off on a project then finding out all your work was for nothing.

Lot of independent artists run into that.