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Reasons Why Younger Gamers Don't Get Older RPGs?.

FFTW

Educated
Joined
Aug 28, 2022
Messages
54
It's all about presentation, I believe. It is really hard to find a way and present the oldies in a good enough light to make them seem worthwhile.

Any game with depth requires your dedication, that is a fact. OTOH, many old games are no longer playable, which is a rather sad result of our technological advance. If something requires too much dedication AND isn't presentable (like what happened to me when I was trying to play original Wasteland or Daggerfall), we have to really REALLY believe that it would be worth our time to be able to pull through. And it just isn't in cases I mentioned. Some games are too old, man. It's not worth going past a certain point because a truly complex game needs a complex system running it. It just wasn't possible to have before latest decades. I know, I started off with some prehistoric examples here, hang on a bit.

I quickly realized that I could never go further than Pool of Radiance and made peace with the past. And, as years went on, I can freely say that I WILL NEVER AGAIN REPLAY the first Icewind dale or Baldur's. There is nothing more that I can gain from them, plus both of these have a much smoother and improved sequel. The oldest and/or crappiest looking ones that I can still play - Arcanum for example - I will play them forever out of stubbornness despite it's hideous, horrendous execution. I LIKE Arcanum on a very personal level and that will go with me to my grave, but the game looks and feels awful. Some older oldfag has the same attitude towards OG Wasteland, I'm sure of it. So, the oldest of these pioneer works inevitably get outdated. Progress is something that must happen, things are destined to be improved upon. Despite this, games that never got their upgraded successors do exist. There is no improved Gothics or Fallouts. There is no D&D based cRPG that does D&D justice that it deserves. Some oldies are all we got.

Therefore, I came to the conclusion that getting someone to play them after their time requires - a marketing expertise. You need to literally marinate someone to the best of your capabilities to make them give these a go.

Wait. Was it ever any different? Have you forgotten how hard it was to get anyone hooked on some of these games even during their time? There was alot less options back in the day, that's probably the only reason we ourselves gave many games a shot, only later becoming aware of their real value.. I now consider games to be a superior medium over movies or books, because you get to actually participate in it. But I will admit it here - I myself had to be marinated in order to give some games a chance.

When it comes to latest generations of gamers, the only way you could even attempt to make some depth-craving youngster to play an old rpg is if you somehow manage to (legally) get them in a "Cabin in the Woods" type of situation, and all therein is would be and old PC with ONE game. That's one way I guess. Recreate the old TIMES. You can have the internet and whatnot, the PC that can run old games ONLY is the key. And maybe, just maybe, you can hold their attention long enough to make them see the actual forest within the ugly trees. Look. It's not even their fault, it's just that we're human as f. I think rpg lovers are born in every generation, but I don't delude myself that I would be any different than this youth if I was born in these times, bombarded with information and having a sea of entertainment at my disposal whenever I feel like it. TRASHING YOUNGER GENERATIONS IS NOT A WAY. Making an effort to APPEAL to them - might be. Show them reviews, LetsPlays, let them see you playing and enjoying it. Make them see it on your face when you recall your found memories with those games and be honest about how old and imperfect they are. A natural spontaneous marination, if you will.
We had a teenage player here at the Codex (Admiral Jimbob) play through Wasteland here about 10 or so years ago, full "Let's Play", and he not only finished it, but actually said he ended up enjoying it immensely, after laughing at the graphics initially.

You make a good point that old games aren't for everybody, especially those who are used to today's comforts. But you miss another salient point; Only a subset of the population were gamers back in the 80's (even the 90's really), and only a subset of that subset were CRPG players. So expecting the multitudes that play new CRPGs to be remotely interested in the really old stuff is expecting a bit much. Even if the same amount exist today that used to play CRPG's (Pool of Radiance was considered one of the greatest CRPG hits of all time when it reached over 100k copies sold back in the late 80's. It ended up being quite a bit more than that, but 100k copies sold in today's triple AAA market would be the failure of the century) you would hardly hear from them, as having say 50-150k young players enjoying 1980's stuff wouldn't be a blip on the gaming market radar.

I will concede also that a lot of people that were playing the C64 version of a game would be envious of those playing the Amiga or ST version of a game (even though said game was usually exactly the same in mechanics and execution, apart from a few that had more on the 16 bit machines, and the odd, rare 8 bit version that had more). They looked better, shinier, used an exotic mouse, looked more like the arcade version, blah blah. That is just how it was for a lot of people. I even see this attitude with oldfags on forums today; Many of them turn to the shiniest version of a 1980's/early 90's game whenever possible. They could play the Apple II or C64 version, but usually opt for the Amiga, ST or (insert Japanese PC) version because graphics, sounds, whatever.

I am an outlier in that I prefer playing the old games on a real C64, with real disks, with real disk drive sounds (but with jiffydos speed, I'm not entirely insane), real C64 sounds etc. Or games I played on Amiga on a real Amiga. Don't ask me why, that is just how it is. But I can understand people that want to make everything as comfy as possible and have as many bells and whistles as they can, as this amounts to most people.

I am aware that RPGs in general are a niche, not a trend...
WRPGs used to be a niche, but they definitely aren't anymore. You need only look at the incredible success of Witcher 3 (over 40 million copies sold), Dragon Age Inquisition (over 6 million sold), etc. Not to mention hybrids like the Mass Effect series (over 17 million copies sold, not counting the LE remaster sales too) and Cyberpunk 2077 (over 18 million copies sold). The genre has definitely become mainstream in the last decade. Pretty much no one in gaming hasn't at least heard of the titles I mentioned.

I would rather have a full 3d version of Forgotten realms map and rely on modules, modders and custom campaigns than developer telling their story and wasting all budget on it. We all have stories, they only need to give us the world, a background to play them in.
This argument is completely ignoring the elephant in the room: Consoles. Consoles don't have any mod support (other than a limited one for bethesda's titles, and the fact that no other studio ever had that shows that it is a very special case scenario) and any developer these days who invests serious money and time into a game intends to have it be released on consoles at some point if not simultaneously, because they have hundreds of millions of active gamers on them (note how all the mega hits i mentioned were released on pcs and consoles simultaneously). So that will never work.

waste money on voiceacting

Catch is that lack of voice acting is a dealbreaker for too many people. Like stylism. Indeed part of style, there being a graphical and nongraphical part. (Again consider FFVI but now the intro's sound and not just how it looked.)
Indeed. Personally, I have always found Dragon Age: Origins' approach to VA to be the best. Having the MC not be voiced allowed them to give him tons of lines and choices, and have the many origin stories, with no worry or issues, and having the NPCs be voiced ensured the atmosphere and the VA impact on the viewer stays impact. I think an improved version of that would have been best, and it is really unfortunate that no one uses that method nowadays :(.
 

Chippy

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
6,241
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
5 pages of old people mumbling, caring so much about what my generation think, begging for answers, and wondering why we don't play their old games like it should be mandatory is somewhat hilarious lol.

anyway, this is pure gold:
If the younger gamer's brain has been wired to the point where we don't even read manuals anymore, then they'll never play a game like PST. And if they lack the mental capacity to play a game like PST.
hi. i'm 20. i played planescape torment when i was 19, it literally was the third crpg i've played, didn't read a single page of the manual (there's no need), and yet, i finished it without breaking a sweat. how is that possible?

see that chippy's comment? this is exactly what i was saying the other day. i have no idea where you old folks got this idea that old crpgs needed some special mental capacities or good gaming skills, you guys are so convinced old crpgs require high IQ it's unbelievable. about PST, as i was playing along, i felt like i was playing some casual jrpg i used to play when i was 9. no joke. there's nothing hard or challenging about PST, and it's not even as well written as any random novel, that game doesn't require anything special. still a good game tho.

i know it hurts, but you'll be fine i guess.

Yuh, but, uh, did you like (even) read these past 5 pages bruh?. And I bet you, like, spent the first 5mins in the mortuary looking for a 9mm.

:stunned:
 

Morpheus Kitami

Liturgist
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
2,697
Recently, early 3D graphics have been starting to be seen as "retro" in the same way as pixel art, and quite a few indie devs have intentionally used a low-poly aesthetic. This kind of stuff is ridiculously popular with zoomers, too, and it was associated with the "analog horror" boom that happened around last year. The "PS1 aesthetic", it's typically called.
There seems to be some group of people nostalgic for the 3D graphical capabilities of the original Playstation and desirous of games with similar graphics, but these are people who played PS1 games as children, and therefore millennials rather than zoomers. Since zoomers were born starting in 1995, even the oldest zoomers wouldn't suffer from nostalgia for the PS1 or its graphics.
I don't think that's entirely true, the oldest might have had older siblings who had a PSX and they might have been able to play games on that, while younger ones might have gotten a hand-me-down PSX or a cheap one. (or N64 or a potato PC) As easy as it is in modern times to forget, sometimes people didn't always have the latest tech and toys, and that extended to game consoles too. I had an Intellivision as a child despite being born long after the system ceased being made. Zoomers just got into a time where they could escape having the absolute greatest technology at all times.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,439
Jesus Christ I fell asleep so much reading this thread. Ok, can't say I care in general why younger gamers don't get older RPGs. Their choice no matter what the reason is.

Graphics? Psh. Vector lines, ochre or green text and and primitive line art is fine to me. Text adventures, they're ok but some suck. My avatar is from a game I've yet yo play but that art seems primitive like shit you'd see in an old c64 video game like cauldron 1 & 2. Minecraft was mentioned and kids play the fuck out of that.

I agree that some might hate reading. I, myself, sometimes get bored of excess reading in games if I play casual. If I take a game serious with notepad, graphpaper, and maybe a spreadsheet program ready then I don't mind at all.

UI is pretty damn important. If it really sucks I am more inclined to junk the game. There is also purpose of why I play said game. Many times the idea comes to me to convert the game to pnp tabletop. That's an extra hobby to keep me invested in ALL games not just RPGs.
 

toro

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,805
We live in a society obsessed with instant gratification.

Younger gamers don't get older rpgs because they are not willing to make an effort to get anything which doesn't result in instant satisfaction.

In fact the concept of delayed gratification is completely alien to many young people. It's a coping mechanism because they lack the self confidence required to endure adversity or hardship therefore they basically refuse to try in order not to get bruised egos.

They are done. Their minds are closed before reaching 25 and they act like consumerist drones for the rest of their lives.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,439
Here's a beginner game to get you in. It is the first incarnation of Planescape Torment before that existed. Easy to master.


Of play the lite even earlier version. Wistrik "THE EVIL" don't give a crap..


Ah good times....

Oh AppleII rockin' the tunes..


 
Last edited:

FFTW

Educated
Joined
Aug 28, 2022
Messages
54
It's called CRPG or just RPGs not some faggot ass wrpg term. That's not even genre.
They should be called "Just RPGs" because JRPGs don't exist on earth, and "Computer RPGs" because it isn't like the vast majority of them are on console too. And they definitely shouldn't be called the only term that makes sense nowadays and the one that most people know them as. got it. boy you are retarded.
 

CanadianCorndog

Learned
Joined
Feb 2, 2021
Messages
158
The popularity of older CRPGs is directly linked to exposure to leaded gasoline in childhood. Leaded gasoline was banned in 1981 and there has been a steady drop in CRPG popularity in every generation born since the ban.
 

Not.AI

Learned
Joined
Dec 21, 2019
Messages
318
Indeed. Personally, I have always found Dragon Age: Origins' approach to VA to be the best. Having the MC not be voiced allowed them to give him tons of lines and choices, and have the many origin stories, with no worry or issues, and having the NPCs be voiced ensured the atmosphere and the VA impact on the viewer stays impact. I think an improved version of that would have been best, and it is really unfortunate that no one uses that method nowadays :(.

That is a good point. Not only does that approach allow giving the PC many more lines. More importantly, maybe most importantly, these lines can be added or changed all the way up to the moment of release. Such as changed according to tester feedback or good ideas or whenever anything else changes. Deferring decisions as late as possible is a software development best practice. It makes greater final coherence and quality possible.

Most often, story and dialogue are locked in pretty early, then recorded. And whatever is the result, that's what the devs live with.

Actually surprising that more AA space games don't just do that.
 

ResetRPG

Novice
Joined
Jul 17, 2022
Messages
35
5 pages of old people mumbling, caring so much about what my generation think, begging for answers, and wondering why we don't play their old games like it should be mandatory is somewhat hilarious lol.

anyway, this is pure gold:
If the younger gamer's brain has been wired to the point where we don't even read manuals anymore, then they'll never play a game like PST. And if they lack the mental capacity to play a game like PST.
hi. i'm 20. i played planescape torment when i was 19, it literally was the third crpg i've played, didn't read a single page of the manual (there's no need), and yet, i finished it without breaking a sweat. how is that possible?

see that chippy's comment? this is exactly what i was saying the other day. i have no idea where you old folks got this idea that old crpgs needed some special mental capacities or good gaming skills, you guys are so convinced old crpgs require high IQ it's unbelievable. about PST, as i was playing along, i felt like i was playing some casual jrpg i used to play when i was 9. no joke. there's nothing hard or challenging about PST, and it's not even as well written as any random novel, that game doesn't require anything special. still a good game tho.

i know it hurts, but you'll be fine i guess.

Yuh, but, uh, did you like (even) read these past 5 pages bruh?. And I bet you, like, spent the first 5mins in the mortuary looking for a 9mm.

:stunned:
codex users when they realize that they aren't high IQ lifeforms purely for enjoying a 20+ year old piece of code
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,184
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
My main conclusion is this: I doubt modern gamers have read a book in their life.
Speaking like an old fags out of touch with reality.

These days the youths doesnt read paper books or official ebooks released by publishers, true.

But that's because those publishers are out of touch with reality, or full of their own political agenda. So the youths dont even want to read their products.

These days they read amateur or free novels on Net first, and if they like what they read, they would read official ebooks later. That way if they dont like author's agenda they can smear them full of shit, figuratively. Good luck doing that to official publishers' authors~

After a long time reading amateur writings, now when I read any official novels by official authors printed/sold by official publishers.... I feel like jumping up and down in their comment threads and listing all their sins, all their shitty agenda... and I cant do that because modders will shut me down, ban and blacklist me faster than light.

Case in point: RPG, books and games, are full of their own political agenda. That's fine and all, provided that we can jump up and down listing all their shitty points of arguments in public. But no, they wont do that. They will pretend that they are santimonious apolitical saints and god help anyone dare to prove otherwise~ THAT is why people no longer favour traditional RPG publishers or traditional book publishers.

...If the younger gamer's brain has been wired to the point where we don't even read manuals anymore, ...
Problem is, nowaday manuals is not the sole source of authority anymore. And we no longer blindly believe in the magical words of printed paper.
Nowaday, it's everybody's belief that manuals being written by Marketing department, not Technical department. Good Marketing dep can write somewhat more detailed and more correct, but manual's purpose is to avoid responsibility and liability, not provide helpful advices as we naively believed in the olden days. And printed paper media is a carefully clothed whore who dont want anybody mention her being a whore, not an respectable office lady like we believe in the old days.
Repecting authority is a laugh nowaday because authority has lost all their credits~
 

FFTW

Educated
Joined
Aug 28, 2022
Messages
54
Indeed. Personally, I have always found Dragon Age: Origins' approach to VA to be the best. Having the MC not be voiced allowed them to give him tons of lines and choices, and have the many origin stories, with no worry or issues, and having the NPCs be voiced ensured the atmosphere and the VA impact on the viewer stays impact. I think an improved version of that would have been best, and it is really unfortunate that no one uses that method nowadays :(.

That is a good point. Not only does that approach allow giving the PC many more lines. More importantly, maybe most importantly, these lines can be added or changed all the way up to the moment of release. Such as changed according to tester feedback or good ideas or whenever anything else changes. Deferring decisions as late as possible is a software development best practice. It makes greater final coherence and quality possible.

Most often, story and dialogue are locked in pretty early, then recorded. And whatever is the result, that's what the devs live with.

Actually surprising that more AA space games don't just do that.
Indeed. And let me add that it allows for more varied content too. Dragon Age: Origins had six, completely different, playable Origin Stories, with 3 unique races and more sub-races, and you can choose your gender too. and they had planned even more origins at one point. If the MC had VA then they would have had to have an incredible amount of different VA for all those different versions of the MC, and that would have been prohibitively expensive and time consuming. Just look at how playable origins, a unique and awesome feature, completely vanished from the rest of the Dragon Age series because it too moved to VA for the MC (and how much less options in dialogue you get compared to Origins because of that).

So yeah, doing it this way has tons of benefits and pretty much allows you to have your cake and eat it too. So I am as confused as you are that no one does this method anymore. Heck, even Bioware abandoned it after DA:O :/.
 

Laz Sundays

Educated
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
352
waste money on voiceacting

Catch is that lack of voice acting is a dealbreaker for too many people. Like stylism. Indeed part of style, there being a graphical and nongraphical part. (Again consider FFVI but now the intro's sound and not just how it looked.)

The original cases that probably started it all, with fully voiced dialogue in many languages, were probably again Gothic 1 & Gothic 2.

Something a little popular but even if not a big hit at the time for historical reasons (Did they have any marketing?) often still does contribute to big trends all same.

Morrowind and later Oblivion did not have it. Voice acting is expensive particularly in that it forces writing to be done and finalized much earlier and any changes later must be redone, making the whole development process less iterative. Though iterative development is one of the main ways to reduce cost. AI voices might be the solution to this cost issue in the end.
What an interesting way to slip the AI suggestion in.

I never wanted to say that I'm against VA, just that there's other priorities that budget needs to cover. If I was developing, I'd have the balls to DLC the complete voicepack later and try not to charge it if possible. Seriously, I would try to sell a game with just having basic voices done, under a promise of more later. Worse deals have appeared

Why don't you like Larian?
It's like the issue I have with Pratchett's daughter writing. And she was writing for their games, maybe still does. They essentially go too far with wacky bs a la Daddy and end up overdoing it. Aka they can't be like him and they're pushing to be. EVERY TIME. I don't wanna hear their awful stories, it sucks.

I did like Divine Divinity. That's the only one I liked, if that helps. I couldn't tell you more
 

GentlemanCthulhu

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 10, 2019
Messages
1,479
After reading much retardation concerning the venerable IE games and how modern gamers "Can't into them" it struck me that there may be a reason(s) beyond decline, lowered IQ, and general spastication.

My main conclusion is this: I doubt modern gamers have read a book in their life. I had an entire collection of books (from pocket money and jobs) when I was a teen. It developed my imagination. So when I played BG, I wasn't playing a RPG with 'barren maps and no feedback' I was playing a game with a character that represented my alter ego in the FR. And a character that I built within it. That character was built around characters I had identified with in the books I read.

Without writing pages...you'd get it if you're my generation or older. And read books as a kid. But younger gamers seem to need that...prior imaginative blueprint. Like flashing images and 1 sentence responses from social media that continuously tell them who their character is.

And without that - they think older games are boring.
No actually it's mostly because most older players look at the past with rose-tinted glasses and fail to identify the many flaws in their beloved RPGs that have long since been fixed in newer releases.
 
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
3,771
There is one important aspect you guys are ignoring when talking about this.

Most "gamers", young, young-ish and "young adultish", played on consoles, not PC. As a whole, "gaming" is a console thing. This is a PC centric forum and as such you guys think PC first, console second, and equating "RPG" with the usual suspects, Fallout, Baldur's Gate, etc.
This is not the case for what you'd call "mainstream" gamers. Someone mentioned Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy. Those were "the" RPGs to play, and like that, RPG, period. When most people say "the mid 00s were prety bad for RPGs", they aren't talking about the games released between Bloodlines and Divinity Original Sin, they mean the dip in quality that console oriented RPGs (jrpgs for everyone else) took. The Infinity Engine is treated as a museum artifact that aged terribly and are impossible to play today but Final Fantasy 6 is celebrated as one of the best games of all time, without having its gameplay or technical aspects questioned. It doesn't have to do with the quality of games per se, but the divide between what people expect from gaming and what you guys expect too. I remember that even among PC gaming magazines there was this air of defeatism that carried all throughout the 90s about how consoles were the main gaming platform for people and that they were capable of much better spectacles than PCs, and by the time PCs were able to "catch up", so to speak, we were in the Microsoft VS Sony landscape where games were all multiplatform.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Consoles were hardly ever better than PCs and by now PCs have left consoles so hard in the dust it is not even funny. Not to mention that consoles are making you a slave to a singular company were you have to pay for everything they ask you and your only option is go somewhere else where it is the same. PC sets you free.
Fuck consoles.

Edit: Chrono Trigger and FF are overrated as hell
 

Feyd Rautha

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
2,071
Location
Nestled atop the cliffs
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
I think Cat Headed Eagle is on to something. There's a huge difference between then and now when it comes to PC vs Consoles.

When I was young almost everyone had a desktop computer in their home whereas now people hardly even have laptops. So back in the day most kids I knew played computer games. However I don't think that's the case any more and buying a PC for gaming is a huge investment and you also need a lot of space in your home. There's probably an even bigger threshold to get into PC gaming now compared to how it was.

The purpose of the PC back then was for the parents to pay bills or whatever but the kids would also use it to play games, browse the web, paint stuff or whatever. Now most parents do that stuff on their phone or maybe on their work computer. So the kids wont have the same access to the PC as gaming platform.
 

Maxie

Wholesome Chungus
Patron
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 13, 2021
Messages
8,128
Location
Warszawa, PL
being able to play shooters with a controller is a generation thing
I absolutely cannot, kids seem to cope
 

Nifft Batuff

Prophet
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
3,579
Younger gamers play every soulslike thinking they are RPGs. They don't understand classics like Skyrim or Oblivion.
 

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