Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Red Dead Redemption 2 - now available on PC

Ezekiel

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
6,693
The quiet loners who go their own way and do what needs to be done.

The Wild Bunch? Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid?

I'm not defending RDR2. Poor writing, too much talking for a western (They're like WOMEN.), unlikable characters, a really fake voice for the protagonist, tedious design, bad gameplay, nothing between the default walk movement and fast run, boring story. I will probably never finish it.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,392
The quiet loners who go their own way and do what needs to be done.

The Wild Bunch? Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid?

Eh, those are not what pops into most people's heads when thinking of the Wild West.


wayne-300.jpg




a7a9d67a80c2d90e86952cb4aa1a4588.jpg
 

soutaiseiriron

Educated
Joined
Aug 8, 2023
Messages
287
You see, the Wild West has always been a setting for epic yarns about hard land and hard men (and in some cases women). The quiet loners who go their own way and do what needs to be done.
RDR2 is not a traditional western. It's a revisionist western. There's room for a story that isn't just about your main character being a cool dude who gets it all.
And RDR2 is about a fucking cult of henchmen, the main character being one of these henchmen
If the only family you ever had, that was the gang you have hanged with for >5 years or a decade, you'd likely trust your leader.
 
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
7,631
too much talking for a western (They're like WOMEN.)

That's typical Rockstar writing for a long time now. I wasn't surprised to see it because characters who can never shut the fuck up is the only thing they can write apparently. They did it to Max Payne too, in 3 he's a fucking whiny crybaby for majority of game. And yeah, there's no way I'm getting a proper western vibe with shit like that.
 

Ezekiel

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
6,693

Eh, those are not what pops into most people's heads when thinking of the Wild West.


a7a9d67a80c2d90e86952cb4aa1a4588.jpg
Oh yeah, the epitomes of American Wild West - Italian "westerns" shot in Spain.
That's like discounting Rear Window as a good movie because it was shot on a set instead of in New York City. They used Spain to get landscapes that look similar (and for cost). Who cares how they create the fantasy?
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,392
You see, the Wild West has always been a setting for epic yarns about hard land and hard men (and in some cases women). The quiet loners who go their own way and do what needs to be done.
RDR2 is not a traditional western. It's a revisionist western. There's room for a story that isn't just about your main character being a cool dude who gets it all.

You want a good revisionist western? How about Unforgiven with Eastwood? Or even The Searchers (book or movie).

RDR2 isn't revisionist, it's just bad.

And RDR2 is about a fucking cult of henchmen, the main character being one of these henchmen
If the only family you ever had, that was the gang you have hanged with for >5 years or a decade, you'd likely trust your leader.

Yeah but if he keeps lying to you over and over, and you don't wise up, you are not good video game protagonist material.


Just out of curiosity, toss me a few examples of well written videogames in your book.

Ok.

Planescape: Torment
Witcher games
Cyberpunk 2077
Disco Elysium
Betrayal at Krondor
Mask of the Betrayer
Arcanum
Shadowrun: Dragonfall
Days Gone
Metro games
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,959
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.

Ok.

Planescape: Torment
Witcher games
Cyberpunk 2077
Disco Elysium
Betrayal at Krondor
Mask of the Betrayer
Arcanum
Shadowrun: Dragonfall
Days Gone
Metro games

No contest about these games being well written (still have to play Disco and Days Gone tho).

RDR2 is a worse game than those but writing-wise is in the same league. Especially the dialogues are really fucking top notch. Agree to disagree.
 

Sentinel

Arcane
Joined
Nov 18, 2015
Messages
6,819
Location
Ommadawn
You see, the Wild West has always been a setting for epic yarns about hard land and hard men (and in some cases women). The quiet loners who go their own way and do what needs to be done.
RDR2 is not a traditional western. It's a revisionist western. There's room for a story that isn't just about your main character being a cool dude who gets it all.

You want a good revisionist western? How about Unforgiven with Eastwood? Or even The Searchers (book or movie).

RDR2 isn't revisionist, it's just bad.

And RDR2 is about a fucking cult of henchmen, the main character being one of these henchmen
If the only family you ever had, that was the gang you have hanged with for >5 years or a decade, you'd likely trust your leader.

Yeah but if he keeps lying to you over and over, and you don't wise up, you are not good video game protagonist material.


Just out of curiosity, toss me a few examples of well written videogames in your book.

Ok.

Planescape: Torment
Witcher games
Cyberpunk 2077
Disco Elysium
Betrayal at Krondor
Mask of the Betrayer
Arcanum
Shadowrun: Dragonfall
Days Gone
Metro games
Reading your complaints about RDR2's writing and then seeing this list is hilarious. As if I needed any more confirmation that you're actually retarded and disliked RDR2 before you even started playing it because of the Rockstar label on the cover.

I GENUIENLY have no idea how you can aim those criticisms at RDR2 and then put Days Gone on that list. What a fucking retard. You're probably very autistic too, incapable of empathy.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,392
Wtf are you going on about? Days Gone is a great game with fun gameplay and great writing, unlike RDR2. I don't have any agenda against Rockstar, I actually used to like their games up until GTA IV, you know, when they were still fun.
 

Ezekiel

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
6,693
I didn't like Days Gone either. Found the design too checkbox-y and hated his tattoos. Think the two Zeldas were the only open world games I really got into in the last couple of years.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,392
Well, you can like or dislike any game, these things are subjective, but Days Gone, unlike RDR2, understands that open world games are about freedom and the ability to use the open world to get shit done. I had great gameplay moments in it where I would ride my bike through zombie hordes to lure them into some village I had to clear of human enemies, or plan how to take out a zombie horde using different tools and approaches and the terrain. There was none of RDR2's cinematic railroading into very specific gameplay sequences.

Then, it had a very well written story about a guy, and a girl, and some other people (not going to spoil it for people who haven't played yet, but it's great), none of this shit about a dying henchman following some obvious lunatic around for 80 hours.
 

-M-

Learned
Joined
Jul 2, 2022
Messages
277

Eh, those are not what pops into most people's heads when thinking of the Wild West.


a7a9d67a80c2d90e86952cb4aa1a4588.jpg
Oh yeah, the epitomes of American Wild West - Italian "westerns" shot in Spain.
That's like discounting Rear Window as a good movie because it was shot on a set instead of in New York City. They used Spain to get landscapes that look similar (and for cost). Who cares how they create the fantasy?
That picture is also from Two Mules for Sister Sara which was shot in Mexico with an American crew.

The only thing Italian about it is Ennio Morricone did the music.
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,959
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Think the two Zeldas were the only open world games I really got into in the last couple of years.
Never understood what people older than 12 see in the new Zeldas. Prancing around at a snail's pace with a mute pixie in a bubblegum world fighting bubblegum enemies, all the while thinking "what the fuck is all this shit about again?", this is supposed to be the pinnacle of open world gaming?

Shit like Horizon or Days Gone or AC or RDR2 is repetitive and checkboxy but at least there is human-level story and human-level characters and human-level world, albeit humdrum writing and design-wise.
 

Ezekiel

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
6,693
Think the two Zeldas were the only open world games I really got into in the last couple of years.
Never understood what people older than 12 see in the new Zeldas. Prancing around at a snail's pace with a mute pixie in a bubblegum world fighting bubblegum enemies, all the while thinking "what the fuck is all this shit about again?", this is supposed to be the pinnacle of open world gaming?

Shit like Horizon or Days Gone or Assassin's Creed or RDR2 is repetitive and checkboxy but at least there is human-level story and human-level characters and human-level world, albeit humdrum writing and design-wise.


We have different priorities. I had lots of issues with the two Zelda games, but they felt more like games than most of the pretentious, disruptive shit American and European studios make. Solid 4/5, even with Tears of the Kingdom's main campaign being the worst I've ever played in the series.

This game logic is so strange. Convict in striped prison uniform asks for help. I hogtie him to bring him to the law. Stranger witnesses me "kidnapping" him. I kill him. Then another witness, then another, and pretty soon it's that scene from Mulholland Drive. Think I killed four witnesses, out in the empty plains.



Just bad design in general. So restrictive.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,392
Think the two Zeldas were the only open world games I really got into in the last couple of years.
Never understood what people older than 12 see in the new Zeldas. Prancing around at a snail's pace with a mute pixie in a bubblegum world fighting bubblegum enemies, all the while thinking "what the fuck is all this shit about again?", this is supposed to be the pinnacle of open world gaming?

Shit like Horizon or Days Gone or AC or RDR2 is repetitive and checkboxy but at least there is human-level story and human-level characters and human-level world, albeit humdrum writing and design-wise.

Uh, everything? The new Zeldas have fun combat, great exploration, neat puzzles, beautiful graphics, a touching story, amazing world interactivity. Stop being close-minded and look past the somewhat juvenile presentation, and they are Skyrim done right.
 

Ezekiel

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
6,693
There was a puzzle in Zelda Tears where I had to submerge a big ball in water so that the physics would shoot it up towards a button. There was no hint. I just figured it out by using what I knew from real life. Ubisoft, Rockstar and American Sony are incapable of that kind of design. They spoon-feed and script everything, begin every new scenario with tutorials that take the satisfaction away.

For once, I played an open world game that left me alone, for the most part. It was truly about exploration. Impossible in these American and European games because story is prioritized far too heavily.
 

EtcEtcEtc

Savant
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Messages
417
Well, you can like or dislike any game, these things are subjective, but Days Gone, unlike RDR2, understands that open world games are about freedom and the ability to use the open world to get shit done. I had great gameplay moments in it where I would ride my bike through zombie hordes to lure them into some village I had to clear of human enemies, or plan how to take out a zombie horde using different tools and approaches and the terrain. There was none of RDR2's cinematic railroading into very specific gameplay sequences.

Then, it had a very well written story about a guy, and a girl, and some other people (not going to spoil it for people who haven't played yet, but it's great), none of this shit about a dying henchman following some obvious lunatic around for 80 hours.
Man, the fact that you keep bringing up RDR2's story being "a bunch of people following a conman" shows you have no idea what it's about - and the fact that you find it so unbelievable shows you have no life experience.

It's not about a bunch of randos following a conman it's about a family - and the lead family figure (Dutch is basically Arthur's father) losing his way and dragging people down with him. Dutch and his gang had A LOT of success before you start RDR2 - people don't follow him because he's shouting platitudes they follow him because he proved himself before and they believe in him.

People don't show their true colors until shit really gets hard, and that's what happens with Dutch. He's lived a charmed life and was able to be a good leader to his crew before they started hitting a string of bad luck and now he's showing himself to be a petulant egotistical asshole - all things that probably existed before but got papered over because they were doing well. But because these people love him they put up with his shit and let him lead them places they shouldn't. It's about the price of unwavering loyalty - which is a very real thing.

Arthur dying is also about him realizing that doing good and doing bad are active choices - it's not circumstances that led him to this point - no one is at fault but himself - he chose to rough up some dude for money even knowing it was the wrong thing to do, which caused him to get TB. He chose to continue following a man who was doing clearly the wrong thing. In a world of woke "circumstances, systemic oppressions, etc" it's refreshing to have a strong moral message ( if you choose to play good, obviously ) that realizes we are responsible for our own decisions.

Also, I love most of the games you listed, but none of them have the humanity or strengths of RDR2 except parts of Planescape. Arthur having a conversation with a nun about his life choices and being scared to die is so far beyond anything in all of those games, again barring some of Planescape. It's pretty clear you like cool and heady genre fiction writing - and the majority of the games you listed are good genre fiction - but they don't match the level of writing in RDR2.

I know this place is full of people who don't have the ability to modulate their opinions - everything has to be "ITS INCLINE" or "ITS SHIT" but you'd be better suited saying RDR2 is not written to your taste, because claiming the writing is shit just makes you look like an idiot. It's like arguing that Snowcrash is a better written book than Lonesome Dove because it has a bunch of cool heady ideas.
 
Unwanted

Cologno

Unwanted
Joined
Jan 3, 2024
Messages
293
Just out of curiousity, who was your favorite character from Lonesome Dove? Mine flips between Gus and that hunchbacked Indian chief (can't recall the name, his son turns out to be a dipshit in later books, though).
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,392
Well, you can like or dislike any game, these things are subjective, but Days Gone, unlike RDR2, understands that open world games are about freedom and the ability to use the open world to get shit done. I had great gameplay moments in it where I would ride my bike through zombie hordes to lure them into some village I had to clear of human enemies, or plan how to take out a zombie horde using different tools and approaches and the terrain. There was none of RDR2's cinematic railroading into very specific gameplay sequences.

Then, it had a very well written story about a guy, and a girl, and some other people (not going to spoil it for people who haven't played yet, but it's great), none of this shit about a dying henchman following some obvious lunatic around for 80 hours.
Man, the fact that you keep bringing up RDR2's story being "a bunch of people following a conman" shows you have no idea what it's about - and the fact that you find it so unbelievable shows you have no life experience.

Rolls eyes... Ok, let's see what you got, boyo.

It's not about a bunch of randos following a conman it's about a family - and the lead family figure (Dutch is basically Arthur's father) losing his way and dragging people down with him. Dutch and his gang had A LOT of success before you start RDR2 - people don't follow him because he's shouting platitudes they follow him because he proved himself before and they believe in him.

But this is an example of RDR2 being bad. The player wasn't there when Dutch was supposedly successful (you can't even use RDR1 as a crutch here, because in that game also, Dutch was just some crazy you hunted down). So all the player sees is Dutch proposing more and more ludicrous schemes. You can't use some "background" lore as an excuse for the player to ignore what they see in front of them.

Also, you have to keep in mind what kind of characters make for good video game protagonists. It's the Wild West, ffs. Can you imagine John Wayne or Clint Eastwood following some "daddy" character for years through multiple retarded scenarios?

People don't show their true colors until shit really gets hard, and that's what happens with Dutch. He's lived a charmed life and was able to be a good leader to his crew before they started hitting a string of bad luck and now he's showing himself to be a petulant egotistical asshole - all things that probably existed before but got papered over because they were doing well. But because these people love him they put up with his shit and let him lead them places they shouldn't. It's about the price of unwavering loyalty - which is a very real thing.

Dogs have unwavering loyalty. Interesting people at the center of 80+ hour long games should not. Actually scratch that, even dogs start biting if the owner kicks them.

Arthur dying is also about him realizing that doing good and doing bad are active choices - it's not circumstances that led him to this point - no one is at fault but himself - he chose to rough up some dude for money even knowing it was the wrong thing to do, which caused him to get TB. He chose to continue following a man who was doing clearly the wrong thing. In a world of woke "circumstances, systemic oppressions, etc" it's refreshing to have a strong moral message ( if you choose to play good, obviously ) that realizes we are responsible for our own decisions.

Yeah, I am sure Sopranos, Goodfellas, Scarface, Rio Grande, etc would have been a lot more interesting if every time someone did something bad, they would be punished from above for the rest of the show. Tony Soprano with leprosy maybe for the last 6 seasons? If you want to make that point, that's not how you do it.


Also, I love most of the games you listed, but none of them have the humanity or strengths of RDR2 except parts of Planescape. Arthur having a conversation with a nun about his life choices and being scared to die is so far beyond anything in all of those games, again barring some of Planescape. It's pretty clear you like cool and heady genre fiction writing - and the majority of the games you listed are good genre fiction - but they don't match the level of writing in RDR2.

Lol, you are delirious, bro. RDR2 writing is a story of a loyal dog. I mean I know these things are subjective, but come on...

I know this place is full of people who don't have the ability to modulate their opinions - everything has to be "ITS INCLINE" or "ITS SHIT" but you'd be better suited saying RDR2 is not written to your taste, because claiming the writing is shit just makes you look like an idiot. It's like arguing that Snowcrash is a better written book than Lonesome Dove because it has a bunch of cool heady ideas.

No, defending its writing makes you look like an idiot. You should try reading some books to get an idea of what good writing is and how to evaluate it. RDR2 writing is bad on every level, other than it does sound like how regular people talk, as opposed to some video game. But aside from that, it's absolute trash, extremely boring in terms of plot, and having no real substance either beyond some dime store philosophical ideas.
 

Hace El Oso

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 5, 2020
Messages
3,726
Location
Bogotá
Poor writing, too much talking for a western (They're like WOMEN.)…

I don’t think there’s anything quite so singularly harmful as this. There are many, many bad things about RDR2, (I’ve written about some of them in this thread) but honestly if it can’t even clear this most basic and fundamental hurdle for a tale in the American West, there’s nothing else to say.
 

KVVRR

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
652
The problem with RDR2's story isn't the writing itself, it is pretty decent, the topics it covers are interesting, and if you only focus on the text what's there delivers. The real problem is that it's stretched way, wayy too thin. Following a gang of misfits while seeing how they fall apart and their father figure slowly rots and reveals his ugly real self sounds good for the first 10 hours, gets annoying by 20, and it's miserable afterwards. That's if you're being patient with it and you don't see where it's going as soon as you get out of the snow. There's absolutely zero reason for this story to last 50 or 60 hours, specially when so much of it is just bickering and infighting and looooooooooong horse rides with them just talking or repeating what they're about to do, or what's just happened.

The game denying you any choice in the matter only makes things worse. It doesn't matter how much you donate to the camp. It doesn't matter if you actively avoid going after people's debts. It doesn't matter if you actively antagonize or praise everyone around camp, if you're the best or the worst outlaw in the old west or if you engage at ALL with the rest of the gang. The systems are there but they don't affect the story at all, and the experience of seeing how the group falls apart so insufferable that you don't care what happens by the point Micah is running around literally terrorizing children, harassing women and killing puppies around camp. If no one is going to sneak in at night and put a cap on the person NO ONE in the group likes, and the game stops me from killing the obvious snake, despite every mission involving gunning down dozens of men, why the fuck would I care?
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom