Researching: the death of the CRPG industry

[keithburgun]

Maybe an over-statement, but it is true that around the turn of the millennium, a lot of the greatest CRPG developers just sort of died, many of whom right after doing some of their best work. These include Black Isle, Sir-Tech, Looking Glass, Troika, and Origin to name just a few.

I'm writing an article on this, and I'm wondering if you Codexers have answers. Why did this happen? Did it have to happen? And most importantly, can there be companies like that again - non-indie teams making sophisticated, turn-based CRPGs for the PC?

Perhaps someone has written on this topic already. If so, would you kindly link me? Thanks guys!

-Keith

 

[Jaesun]

Black Isle? Dumbfuck Herve happened.
Troika? No Publisher wanted to publish or fund their turn based post apocalyptic cRPG. (their next game after Temple of Elemental Evil)
What happened to Origin and *surprise* *surprise* it was not all EA's fault.

I'm a bit rusty on what happened to Sir-Tech and Looking Glass....

 

[Excidium]

It started much earlier than the 2000's. Action RPGs killed the genre.

 

[keithburgun]

@Jaesun...

What's Dumbfuck Herve?

Also, is it your opinion that it was just a string of coincidences, or was there some larger reason that all these companies were dying.

 

[Shannow]

@Jaesun...

What's Dumbfuck Herve?

Herve Caen:

The suit that did to BIS what other suits did to the financial market

 

[Jaesun]

@Jaesun...

What's Dumbfuck Herve?

Herve Caen is the fucking dip shit in charge of Interplay. To summarize all of the stupid shit and bad decisions he made and continues to make would encompass an entire wiki...

Also, is it your opinion that it was just a string of coincidences, or was there some larger reason that all these companies were dying.

This is a great question.

What (ultimately) killed all western cRPG's is:

1. Greed
2. Mass Accessibility
3. Developers forced with a mandate from publishers (or their owners) to achieve 1 and 2 above and failed to accomplish this request.

The same thing happened to adventure games. This cycle (of 1 to 3 above) continues to this day (see Dragon Age II, Skyrim). And will continue. And continue. And continue. And....

 

[CrunchyHemorrhoids]

Maybe an over-statement, but it is true that around the turn of the millennium, a lot of the greatest CRPG developers just sort of died, many of whom right after doing some of their best work. These include Black Isle, Sir-Tech, Looking Glass, Troika, and Origin to name just a few.

Troika doesn't fit there, it died in 2005 after releasing an action rpg in 2004. Different generation of companies/games. Cause of death? Shit marketing and management, the usual among rpg studios who haven't completely whored out.

It started much earlier than the 2000's. Action RPGs killed the genre.

Pretty much, what's the next article going to be? The death of the side-scrolling platformer industry?

 

[RK47]

Troika suffered from lack of QC on their finished games. I'm struggling to recall a game from them that isn't bogged down by serious bugs at release.

 

[someone else]

I thought MMORPG happened.

 

[Jaesun]

Why do you single out, and hate Troika RK47?

You have successfully removed RK47 from your BRO list.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

According to DarkUnderlord http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=200
those who do sequels a lot, dumbing them down in the process, are alive and well.

 

[Konjad]

Lies, cRPG genre hasn't died, it's still as strong as in nineties. You are just a dumbfuck to not see that. Fallout Nev Vegas, Mask of the Betrayer, Wiedzmin, Wiedzmin II, Risen, Mysteries of Westgate, Eschalon, Geneforges... 'to name a few', but no, these are all shit because you need to be one of the cool hating kiddies and repeat that Icewind Dales were amazing, Baldur's Gate II is one of the best cRPGs evar, shitty Might and Magiv IX was the best experience you've ever had and there was never any cRPG after PST and Fallout.

 

[circ]

Are you trollering Konjad? Even though I don't think shit of any of those titles - they're ARPG's - not RPG's as such. Ok MoTB might qualify as an RPG but it runs on such a horrible engine I just don't care and just refer to it as SHIT. As for Vogel's stuff ya well, that's hardly comparable to the big studio offerings of the 90's.

 

[Twinkle]

Bro, I appreciate your KKK gathering efforts, but

Wiedzmin, Wiedzmin II

Go plough yourself with a potato.
Also, Dragon Age 2 is conspicuously missing.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Lies, cRPG genre hasn't died, it's still as strong as in nineties. You are just a dumbfuck to not see that. Fallout Nev Vegas, Mask of the Betrayer, Wiedzmin, Wiedzmin II, Risen, Mysteries of Westgate, Eschalon, Geneforges... 'to name a few', but no, these are all shit because you need to be one of the cool hating kiddies and repeat that Icewind Dales were amazing, Baldur's Gate II is one of the best cRPGs evar, shitty Might and Magiv IX was the best experience you've ever had and there was never any cRPG after PST and Fallout.

I tend to agree. Alpha Protolol, Dargon Age II and Heavy Reign too. Not to forget Avalon: The Black Mistress. The RPG genre is alive and well.

 

[waywardOne]

RPGs then:

RPGs now:

 

[MicoSelva]

The Golden Age of cRPGs died as the video games market expanded and grew. cRPGs as a genre were never a mass product, they existed in a niche, which, while not very large, was big enough to sustain them.

As the market grew, the average income from a game grew also, and along with that also grew average cost of making a game and marketing it. What did not grow accordingly was cRPG audience numbers. The niche suddenly has started to become too tight and some companies suffocated while other adapted, expanding to other, larger niches. Hence the flood of ARPGs.

There is still a market for classic party-based RPGs with turn-based combat, but it's not big enough for the large companies to be interested in it. They might invest $2 million in such a game and earn $3 million, but that would be a waste of time for them, as they prefer to spend $10 million, earning $20 million as a result.

That's why we are catered to by indie companies only. They are the ones who want that 1$ million gain. Last "large" classic RPG was what, Temple of Elemental Evil? From 2003.

All the numbers ale pulled from my ass, obviously. Just wanted to indicate a trend.

 

[ZbojLamignat]

What's with all the "crpgs were never a mass product" talk? Aren't you a potato MicroSelva? Games like BG, M&M, Gothic, Arcanum, Fallout were always among the most popular titles here. Did any other game had so many re-releases as BG I&II or Fallout I&II? And they all sold out quickly.

It's easier to make a shit game. Modern marketing allows you not only to sell a shit game, but even convince buyer that good game are actually shit. That's all there is to it.

In 1997 Fallout was bought by prestigious individuals and derpers alike.

 

[mondblut]

The public expectations (and therefore budgets) curve outgrew the auditory (and therefore income) curve, that's what happened.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

What's with all the "crpgs were never a mass product" talk? Aren't you a potato MicroSelva? Games like BG, M&M, Gothic, Arcanum, Fallout were always among the most popular titles here. Did any other game had so many re-releases as BG I&II or Fallout I&II? And they all sold out quickly.

It's easier to make a shit game. Modern marketing allows you not only to sell a shit game, but even convince buyer that good game are actually shit. That's all there is to it.

In 1997 Fallout was bought by prestigious individuals and derpers alike.

 

[ChristofferC]

There never was a golden age of CRPG:s. Everything before BaK sucked (except for, maybe, Pool of Radiance). Most everything after BaK sucked. There are less than ten great CRPG:s in total.

 

[octavius]

@Jaesun...

What's Dumbfuck Herve?

Herve Caen:

The suit that did to BIS what other suits did to the financial market

He looks like someone who would pimp his own mother...

 

[MicoSelva]

What's with all the "crpgs were never a mass product" talk? Aren't you a potato MicroSelva? Games like BG, M&M, Gothic, Arcanum, Fallout were always among the most popular titles here. Did any other game had so many re-releases as BG I&II or Fallout I&II? And they all sold out quickly.

It's easier to make a shit game. Modern marketing allows you not only to sell a shit game, but even convince buyer that good game are actually shit. That's all there is to it.

In 1997 Fallout was bought by prestigious individuals and derpers alike.

You missed the point here. In 1990s the video game market was way smaller. Baldur's Gate GREAT HUGE success in Polish market was selling 40 000 copies back then. Most games sold 10 000 at most. That's just it, the whole market was 60-80 000 large maybe. These numbers ale laughable now.

Back then mostly nerds played video games, and nerds have a knack for cRPGs. Now, when the potential audience is larger, nerds are only a small portion of it. In the meantime games have become more expensive to make. You have to pay for voice acting, motion capture, etc. cRPGs probably still sell like they used to, but now it's not enough to cover the expenses.

The other aspect of growing market is more games available. There weren't that many good PC games when Baldur's Gate was released, so people took an interest in it, were they nerdy or not. Now they have 500 games to choose from.

 

[octavius]

You missed the point here. In 1990s the video game market was way smaller. Baldur's Gate GREAT HUGE success in Polish market was selling 40 000 copies back then. Most games sold 10 000 at most. That's just it, the whole market was 60-80 000 large maybe. These numbers ale laughable now.

Back then mostly nerds played video games, and nerds have a knack for cRPGs. Now, when the potential audience is larger, nerds are only a small portion of it. In the meantime games have become more expensive to make. You have to pay for voice acting, motion capture, etc. cRPGs probably still sell like they used to, but now it's not enough to cover the expenses.

I think this is the main problem. Video game have become as main stream as movies, and the lamer/consoletard to nerd ratio is now probably 1000 to 1.

But I don't think the endless bitching about the unfairness of situation, and blaming Bioware and Bethesda for all the evils in the world, is very productive. Personally I prefer retro-gaming instead, playing all those games I missed the Golden Age, replaying old favourites and playing remakes and fan made mods and maps for my favourite games.
Which reminds me: another problem is due to distribution. Nowadays the shops in my neck of the woods (Norway) only sell games from the big publishers ( EA and Eidos), so I never even got the chance to buy games like Wizardry 8, Temple of Elemental Evil and The Witcher (yes, I know I can buy them online), whereas before any game that was reviewed in gaming mags could be purchased in local shops.

 

[Morkar Left]

With advancing hardware, production costs exploded (mostly because of gfx but more content was a given too) and more people had to be attracted to rpgs to be really profitable.

The gaming market got bigger too in general and marketing costs were rising to reach a bigger audience. Production teams of today aren't anymore comparable in size to let's say the late 80's / early 90's.

I remember an interview with Guido Henkel mentioning that Realms of Arkania were absolut topsellers in Germany but they still had made minimal profit (but not loosing money as far as I understood!).

Publisher companies took over good "franchises" (a horrible shitty word) and development studios to place themselves in a good market position and make as much money as possible.

The most successful games gameplaywise are the games which had innovative or expanded gameplay (on top of mediocre to good gameplay in general) to the games released before plus an relatively easy to understand interface and no gamebreaking bugs and last but not least good gfx (for the time). It's hard to achive all this in rpgs and the game can still sell like shit because of bad marketing.

For an rpg you need good coders (lots of influencing stats and options), good writers (world, dialog) and good designers (gameplay mechanics, dungeons, ui). And all should be interested in Fantasy/scifi and rpgs in general. I would go as far as to say they all should have p&p experience to get what is really different about an rpg compared to other gaming genres (Hint: it's not the story).

 

[Turisas]

There weren't that many good PC games when Baldur's Gate was released

There were certainly more than there are now.

Thief II
Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed (this was when the series was still worth a damn)
Soldier of Fortune
Shogun: Total War
Deus Ex
Diablo II
Icewind Dale
Homeworld: Cataclysm
Age of Empires II: The Conquerors
American McGee's Alice
Command & Conquer: Red Alert 2
No One Lives Forever
Sacrifice
Hitman: Codename 47

+ probably loads of others I forgot.