Return To Monkey Island - MI2 sequel from Ron Gilbert

[MRY]

Dios mío, when you've lost WallaceChambers, you've lost the country. He's probably the most enthusiastic supporter of modern adventures out there!

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

Can you really say the hate for the artsyle comes down exclusively to it not being pixel art? I've seen that bandied about quite a bit, but I can't say I've ever actually seen anyone complain that an adventure game is not pixel art. It always seems to be criticisms towards the style of art a game uses, which would have been crap if it was pixel or not. I've seen just as much criticism towards the artstyles of pixel art based games too, especially whenever they have characters be really low-res like The Darkside Detective or if they use modern rendering features with ye old pixel art. Its hard for me to tell since so many "adventure" games these days aren't in the slightest.
And personally, every new piece of it I see I find it to look worse and worse. That's not because I hate games that aren't made in pixel art, far from it, because I enjoy adventures that are in 3D or in FMV. Even if those are rough and ugly as hell. No, I just think the particular style they chose for this game is garbage. And this is to say nothing of the entitlement problems the guy has. This is the kind of shit I'd expect from an indie dev like Phil Fish or something, not a legendary industry veteran.

 

[Lady Error]

"The real Monkey Island 3" will become the "real Terminator 3" and "real Alien 3" of the gaming world.

 

[agris]

Personally my dislike of the art style has more to do with it looking synthetic, or computer generated, versus the older pixel or hand-animated style.

looking at the few promo screens in this thread, all the lines are rectilinear. All of them. Sure the geometry isn’t Euclidean, but to my eye the art is clearly a byproduct of using digital tools, and I don’t like that.

Why not? I like other art forms that have aesthetics influenced by the tools used to generate them. I love seeing the brush strokes in old masters oil paintings. I love the cellulose shading “scooby doo” effect in old cartoons where an object that is supposed to blend into the background is actually going to move and thus is colored differently because it’s part of the moving cellulose layer, not the background panel.

So why is the latter enjoyable while the former not? If I had to put my finger on it it would be because the computerized rectilinear style is so evocative of digital tools which I inherently associate with cheap(er), less personalized and bespoke art.

This is entirely my bias, but I think my bias is born out of the actual use of such tools in practice. It’s hard to digitize an analogue art creation process (look at Leonard Boyarksky’s talk about his early career!), whereas a Wacom tablet and it’s template of variable pressure brushstrokes is limited in execution because you lack the fuzzy fidelity of analogue. Similar to children’s books with no dedicated illustrator yet have art that has obviously been thrown together in a glorified PowerPoint, maybe with a noise filter to try to fool the eye into believing it is hand drawn, modern digital creation tools have this flattening effect on art that instantly makes it look “like it was made on a computer”, at least most of it. I’m sure there are truly skilled artists that avoid this trap, but like so much in our present day, a lower bar of entry has translated to a flood of lower quality output.

 

[negator2vc]

It's just weird.

"I know what you want. It makes sense for you to want it. I talked at length in my blogs about how I want that too. And I did exactly that in very recent memory with another game. However I'm not doing it now because reasons. No that is not at strange at all, actually."

You can't help but feel like the crux of the matter is being dodged and you get a bunch of random Morshu-beatboxing instead of the truth. Feels like a very modern thing.

So he listen to "modern" game "journalists" but when the fans complain about the crap art he cry ... seriously????!!!

and also what do you expect when he post something like this about the RtMI art?
"I wanted the art in Return to Monkey Island to be provocative, shocking, and not what everyone was expecting."

 

[ciox]

It's just weird.

"I know what you want. It makes sense for you to want it. I talked at length in my blogs about how I want that too. And I did exactly that in very recent memory with another game. However I'm not doing it now because reasons. No that is not at strange at all, actually."

You can't help but feel like the crux of the matter is being dodged and you get a bunch of random Morshu-beatboxing instead of the truth. Feels like a very modern thing.

So he listen to "modern" game "journalists" but when the fans complain about the crap art he cry ... seriously????!!!

and also what do you expect when he post something like this about the RtMI art?
"I wanted the art in Return to Monkey Island to be provocative, shocking, and not what everyone was expecting."

I dunno, I feel like if this was a few decades ago you would hear a very straightforward statement, like "Yes, I promised this guy that we'll use his art direction. It's too late to change my mind. End of story."

But it's not, so you have to read several pages about how you don't really want what you want, because of a conviction that when you're in a bind you can quickly "fix things" by verbally bamboozling people, instead of just laying out your decisions plainly and taking full responsibility for them.

 

[Darkozric]

Just look at what kind of butthurt has Ron created with his retarded comments. Also it is worth mentioning that all these idiots believe that the art is the only problem here.
They don't even notice the red flags in his interviews about the gameplay and how it will be casualified for modern twitch gamers. They eat what Ron is serving to them so flawlessly without even chewing it.

"People aren't allowed to don't like things! We must exorcise the negativity!!!"

Putting fans/people against each other because you're a fucking greedy piece of butthurt, is one of the worst things in nowadays mentality (mostly Amerifart retarded mentality), as someone else here said this is the Disney/Rian Johnson mentality.

It's sad to see Ron embracing this retarded mentality in his 60s. I would expect it by anyone else but not him.

Also another thing I hate is when I see people disable comments on posts/videos. It's nuke it from orbit material.

I never thought that I would say these words but I hope his dream abomination flops hard, he deserves it.

 

[zapotec]

Why they are playing a monkey island game with a joypad

 

[negator2vc]

I dunno, I feel like if this was a few decades ago you would hear a very straightforward statement, like "Yes, I promised this guy that we'll use his art direction. It's too late to change my mind. End of story."

But it's not, so you have to read several pages about how you don't really want what you want, because of a conviction that when you're in a bind you can quickly "fix things" by verbally bamboozling people, instead of just laying out your decisions plainly and taking full responsibility for them.

Sooo true. Another creator who blame fans instead of owning his decisions.
My only doubt is, are these really his decisions? After all Disney own the IP and they could easily force creative decisions on the developer and then force him to defend them.
We have seen this type of defense in their movies/tv series after all.
I really don't know what to believe anymore

 

[JarlFrank]

lol about the pixel art

It doesn't have to be pixel art, it just has to look good. I doubt people would complain if it looked like Monkey Island 3, which wasn't pixel art but a more cartoony style... but it looked good. The new style doesn't look good.

Quick googling of "Monkey Island fan art" gave me results like these:

Spoiler

All of these look better than whatever the fuck this new artstyle is supposed to be. Even the amateurish ones.

 

[JarlFrank]

I have made one pixel art game in my entire career and that was Thimbleweed Park. Monkey Island 1 and 2 weren't pixel art games. They were games using state-of-the-art tech and art. Monkey Island 1 was 16 color EGA and we jumped at the chance to upgrade it to 256 colors. Monkey Island 2 featured the magical wizardry of scanned art by Peter Chan and Steve Purcell and we lusted to keep pushing everything forward.

If I had stayed and done Monkey Island 3 it wouldn't have looked like Monkey Island 2. We would have kept pushing forward, and Day of the Tentacle is a good example of that.

And that's precisely what separates the old art from the new: Monkey Island 1, 2 and 3 had beautifully hand-painted backgrounds and characters. The new artstyle looks cheap and overyl abstract in comparison.

Back then they used the technology of the time to make the visuals as detailed as possible, now they're simplifying the visuals to the point that it looks like cubist art.

Imagine picking up a picture book expecting beautiful watercolor illustrations by Warwick Goble or Edmund Dulac, but instead you get Pablo Picasso style cubism.

 

[RapineDel]

The problem with the art is it just looks cheap, especially the Monkey and Judge screenshots.

The DOTT and CoMI comparisons are completely off when people point to them being "different". You can argue the visuals are jarring, but no one can objectively say they're poor quality art which is not the case with everyone I've shown these RTMI screenshots.

The usual Reddit mongoloids have been about as predictable as ever. Criticism of the art is now heavily downvoted as "toxic" with a bunch of people who're totally sincere, not at all sucking up claiming they love the art and they couldn't think of a better choice.

I don't really buy Ron's reasoning, he's a talented guy but I get the feeling he's pretty far removed from visual art (usually the case with the programmer types) and someone needed to tap him on the shoulder when he went down this road. The pixel art stuff is a total strawman, given how few quality adventure games there are these days what's usually consistent is decent art and for "shock" value, this is the exception.

Given I've heard not a single positive thing in any of the interviews I'm not sure what to make of this game, they've done a pretty impressive job of completely killing the hype of a game that should be a sure-fire hit (by adventure game standards), all that with a 30 second trailer and a handful of screenshots.

 

[Darkozric]

lol about the pixel art

It doesn't have to be pixel art, it just has to look good. I doubt people would complain if it looked like Monkey Island 3, which wasn't pixel art but a more cartoony style... but it looked good. The new style doesn't look good.

They keep spamming about pixel art because they don't have anything to answer when you give them examples about other styles. It's like they are stuck in a loop.

For this reason, 2-3 Weeks ago I posted some different art styles that they could go with, some from The Book of Unwritten Tales and a few other similar titles, and a Germanoid retard was triggered and wrote to me: "No!! I don't want this foggy stuff!! This art is better!!"

We're dealing with egotistical motherfuckers who can't stand any criticism/suggestion/opinion.

 

[Alienman]

Reddit is so damn boring, and as usual ruin all critique. They are all sycophants.

And man, the slimy sugary overload you get by reading the reddit thread is making me a bit sick. It's either you suck dick until blue in the face, or you don't get to say anything at all.

Oh man. We need to go show him our support. The voice I want him to hear from us is gratitude and optimism.

Hardcore fans are always the worst fans.

So... there are "fans" who aren't happy about Return to Monkey Island? They must truly be people of low moral fiber.

Perhaps we should all “lovebomb” his site.

Painful, as its apologetic. I feel rather that the "I hate the game already because its not 100% what I want"-crowd should apologise.

 

[JarlFrank]

lol about the pixel art

It doesn't have to be pixel art, it just has to look good. I doubt people would complain if it looked like Monkey Island 3, which wasn't pixel art but a more cartoony style... but it looked good. The new style doesn't look good.

They keep spamming about pixel art because they don't have anything to answer when you give them examples about other styles. It's like they are stuck in a loop.

It's because they're NPCs who are incapable of coherent thought. They just repeat what they're told by people they perceive to be in authority.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

lol about the pixel art

It doesn't have to be pixel art, it just has to look good. I doubt people would complain if it looked like Monkey Island 3, which wasn't pixel art but a more cartoony style... but it looked good. The new style doesn't look good.

Quick googling of "Monkey Island fan art" gave me results like these:

Spoiler

All of these look better than whatever the fuck this new artstyle is supposed to be. Even the amateurish ones.

Pretty sure at least the third one there is Steve Purcell, which, yeah, no argument there that the game would look better if Purcell was heading up art. I think he’s a big muckymuck at Pixar now though, doubt he would have any interest if approached.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Painful, as its apologetic. I feel rather that the "I hate the game already because its not 100% what I want"-crowd should apologise.

you know you're gonna read a really bad opinion when they use the serf way of spelling

 

[Falksi]

I played the God awful looking Escape, so I don't really care if this looks a bit pap if the writing and game is up to scratch.

 

[Alan]

Alan is right. We are seeing the Monkey Island they always wanted to make. The first three represent the achievement of Lucas Arts managerial control, this is what every MI game would’ve been like if Ron et al. had been free from outside influence.

I never said that this is what they always wanted to make. You are incredibly stupid

I said that this is the game they want to make now. They are not making the game in some eternity limbo where there is a perfect timeless version of it. If you knew anything about creativity, or being alive, you would see that there is an intuitive way to make things when you get down to it.

If you people can't see why they find it exciting to use this new artstyle, you must be blind. If they made the game with pixels and verbs like you guys want, then THAT would be a boring, uninspired case of pandering. It's the other way around. You are the ones who want a design-by-checklists type of game.

This is the game that Ron has in him. If he made anything else, it would be worthless, because we wouldn't get to see the real thing. Making games like people here say is just not worth it, there is no heart to it

 

[Alan]

Now why the hell should they pay any attention to what some nobodies think about their choices? Are they supposed to just enslave themselves under you people? Now that they are old and free? pffff

I think you're a bit confused. Of course, they can do whatever, and likewise, we are free to discuss our opinions on what they're up to as well. I can't remember anybody from here demanding that "they pay attention" or "enslave themselves" to "us people". Have I missed anything? I personally won't just automatically love *everything* Ron Gilbert does because he made a few good games in the past (well, really good ones, I'll give him that, including TP).

I'm only extrapolating the local opinion in order to see the consequences. People here seem stupid to have these opinions, but they don't matter at all so it's ok

 

[MRY]

If they made the game with pixels and verbs like you guys want, then THAT would be a boring, uninspired case of pandering. It's the other way around. .... it would be worthless

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What happened to let a thousand flowers bloom?

 

[Alan]

If they made the game with pixels and verbs like you guys want, then THAT would be a boring, uninspired case of pandering. It's the other way around. .... it would be worthless

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What happened to let a thousand flowers bloom?

Isn't that a different game? Do you lack imagination to see how Ron would feel differently about making a present-day monkey island? rather than making a present-day maniac mansion?

More than half of monkey island games have non pixel artstyle. Ron Gilbert looks at the series, and feels stupid about making a sequel to monkey 2 as if that was the last one they made. That would be like making a game for a series that doesn't exist, with different expectations and fanbase

Now tell me, where are the precedents of a maniac mansion game with no pixel art. Where is the reason to look at the series and not see how the retro look is an integral part of the whole thing.

Monkey island is a humorous pirate adventure with guybrush, voodoo, and maybe elaine/lechuck. Everything else is accidental. Ron can see it and you can't

 

[Alan]

Instead, based on the visuals, it is a 2022 game that needs 30+ years worth of irony and deconstruction to approach an adventure about a young man who wants to be a pirate and get the girl.

No, it's not. It literally cannot be that, because it's not out yet, and you don't know. This is what I don't get. Are you sure you're not simply partaking in the all too human exercise of seeing what you want to see, having the screenshots confirm your cherished belief, etc?

He's a charlatan

 

[MRY]

Ron Gilbert looks at the series, and feels stupid about making a sequel to monkey 2 as if that was the last one they made.

Dude, he's already feeling bad enough, don't keeping attacking him like this. It's bad enough to crap all over his most recent release, now you're ridiculing his most popular blog post of all time.

It would be a retro game that harkened back to Monkey Island 1 and 2. I'd do it as "enhanced low-res". Nice crisp retro art, but augmented by the hardware we have today: parallaxing, depth of field, warm glows, etc. All the stuff we wanted to do back in 1990 but couldn't. Monkey Island deserves that. It's authentic. It doesn't need 3D. Yes, I've seen the video, it's very cool, but Monkey Island wants to be what it is. I would want the game to be how we all remember Monkey Island.
...
It would be called Monkey Island 3a. All the games after Monkey Island 2 don't exist in my Monkey Island universe. My apologies to the all talented people who worked on them and the people who loved them, but I'd want to pick up where I left off. Free of baggage. In a carnival. That doesn't mean I won't steal some good ideas or characters from other games. I'm not above that.

 

[Alan]

Ron Gilbert looks at the series, and feels stupid about making a sequel to monkey 2 as if that was the last one they made.

Dude, he's already feeling bad enough, don't keeping attacking him like this. It's bad enough to crap all over his most recent release, now you're ridiculing his most popular blog post of all time.

It would be a retro game that harkened back to Monkey Island 1 and 2. I'd do it as "enhanced low-res". Nice crisp retro art, but augmented by the hardware we have today: parallaxing, depth of field, warm glows, etc. All the stuff we wanted to do back in 1990 but couldn't. Monkey Island deserves that. It's authentic. It doesn't need 3D. Yes, I've seen the video, it's very cool, but Monkey Island wants to be what it is. I would want the game to be how we all remember Monkey Island.
...
It would be called Monkey Island 3a. All the games after Monkey Island 2 don't exist in my Monkey Island universe. My apologies to the all talented people who worked on them and the people who loved them, but I'd want to pick up where I left off. Free of baggage. In a carnival. That doesn't mean I won't steal some good ideas or characters from other games. I'm not above that.

Maybe such was the game that he wanted to make, at the time when he wrote that blogpost. That was quite a few years ago.

Anyway, you can't take it seriously, because words mean nothing. Only by releasing an actual game can he say "this is what I wanted to make". If you make him accountable for what he said there in his little soapbox, then you are surely a fool and a nerd. Or perhaps it is your warped lawyer worldview, which makes you see everything as a legal statement, with no heart and feelings involved. Either way, you are pretty far from reality